Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

<snip>I am do not intend to "defend" Italy, even less praise it by talking about these things; I only wanted to illuminate how superficial those armchair theories about culture issues may appear. I invoked "caution" before heading down into kinds of speculations, not for me but really for those who devise such speculations themselves. For their own intellectual good. Mary H said - some time ago - that she could tell about Amanda Knox because of her superior cultural-emotional knowledge about Knox's environment of origin. It is very strange to hear now, how quick the same person can be in offering the cheapest rationalizations, about unrelated things, from topics (another country, another case) she admits she has no knowledge about.

I don't think I have ever said I have superior knowledge. I have said I have knowledge. It is your inference that having knowledge is superior to not having knowledge.

I also did not admit to having no knowledge about Italy. I have some knowledge about the treatment of women in Italy, based on what I have read, people I have spoken to, and statistics I have seen.

I didn't start talking about this to get into a discussion of culturally-relative misogyny. I only wanted to remind Strozzi that it was not necessarily the case that ILE would stop being protective of Rudy once they knew he had murdered a young woman, one reason being that I still have not seen any evidence of sympathy for the murder victim coming from ILE in this case.

Once again, I am appalled at the shallowness of some people's understanding of the issues of women's and minority empowerment. Machiavelli, do you not know that in the United States, black men kill more black men than any other type of victim? Regardless of one's gender, race, age, et cetera, we are all subject to the influences of the dominant cultural paradigm.

It can be somewhat irrelevant how many women serve in one's parliament. A number of years ago in Seattle, they started providing tax relief to small businesses run by women. Overnight, "Tenney Toyota" became "Linda Tenney Toyota." Get it?

 

[LondonJohn]

For an exam question I would set 'Compare and contrast the physical evidence of the involvement of RG with the involvement of AK in the murder of MK'.

My starter would be the palm print of RG. This is amazingly strong evidence, it is evidence of time, place and person. RG is identified by his handprint, at the scene of the crime and since it was made in wet blood it also ties him to the time of the crime. His identity is confirmed independently by PCR identification of his biological material from MK vagina. So identity confirmed by two separate methods carried out by two different laboratories. Both samples are specific for person and place, and also include time information. The physical evidence of AK - none. (Her DNA on the handle of the knife - even if the murder weapon must have been deposited post cleaning therefore is not evidence of involvement).

RG was not convicted of theft although there is a history of probable previous thefts, his DNA was found on MK purse (handbag in English?), from which money and phone taken. He had no known income and came into money about that time allowing him to flee to Germany. AK found guilty of theft - no physical evidence, purely based on the motive argument, that the only person with a motive to steal (despite the fact that RG may have had a motive and admitted to being present) was AK as part of the false burglary scenario. Although cunningly she then said nothing was stolen. Foolishly she failed to steal anything from herself of the other girls. Only from where there is physical evidence of RG being present.

Yes. It's my firm opinion (and I and other have expressed it here several times before) that Guede could have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt purely on two conclusive and undeniable pieces of evidence:

1) His palm print on the pillowcase, made in Meredith's blood

2) His proven sighting - along with his demeanour - at the discos in Perugia within hours of the murder.

The palm print proves beyond all doubt that Guede was present at the murder scene either during or very shortly after the murder. It's virtually impossible to spin this evidence from a defence perspective: provided that an adequate identification vs Guede's reference prints was made, the location and the print medium are damning for Guede. And of course it's not logically feasible to even try to argue contamination (impossible) or planting (also impossible).

So with this certain knowledge of Guede's presence at the murder scene, one then has to examine Guede's defence that somebody confronted and stabbed Meredith while he (Guede) was on the toilet, that he merely came across the already-stabbed and dying Meredith, that he tried to help her before fleeing in panic and fear. I contend that this version of events is entirely and incontrovertibly contradicted by the confirmed sightings of him in a couple of discos/clubs in the centre of Perugia, dancing and mingling with no apparent troubles.

I would contend that if Guede's version of events really had been accurate, at worst he would have fled back to his apartment and laid low overnight, or at best he would have contacted the authorities and alerted them to the situation. He provably did neither of these things. He actions within hours of the murder are completely incompatible with his version of events, and therefore strongly tend to disprove his story.

Guede was provably (in fact) there, and he was provably (in my opinion) lying about his role in the murder and his version of being traumatised by coming across the already-stabbed Meredith. Those two factors are sufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Strozzi]

But, but, Bill Williams,
Don't you know that memory recall is a process, not a replaying of a recording?

Have a quick read from a screen shot from a post written Pro-Guilter 'Catnip',
which I read early this mornin' before I split to the beach+which I post below:
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img841/2513/xkno.jpg[/qimg]

Trip out that what she read, unusual email ,
then somehow, in her mind, became bizarre email...

Weird,
that memory stuff.

Sounds like Quintavalle suffers from the same disease...
And the Judge believed him!

Catnip is not the only one with a faulty memory. The journalist who wrote the news item also suffers from memory faults - I recall that Knox sent a letter to the court, it was not an email. Or did I remember it wrong? Gosh, I hope it is not I who has the faulty recollection!

But I'm not worried. I'm sure that in 8 months I will remember it correctly and a court can use my testimony to convict two people and put them away for 30 years.

 

[Mary_H]

It might be a symptom. Stats make them appear as race-and-class-oriented, not evenly distributed (also on other indicators, including sex and age).
Usually there is a reason for that.

Yes, it's because people tend to live among people like themselves, as London John points out. Even in America's melting pot, there are relatively exclusive pocket communities of every nationality and ethnicity represented by the people who live here. Some seek relationships with international people of all shapes and kinds, some don't. A person can't help what community he is born into, but he is welcome to change it if he wants. Family ties are always strong, though.

There definitely is a lot of racism in the United States, although we have laws against it, and are not allowed to be as brazen about it anymore as they are in Italy. Whether there are radical racists among the supporters, I don't know.

Charles Mudede, a writer from The Seattle Stranger, an alternative newspaper, said he was going to write a book about how racism against Africans was reflected in the Kercher case. It seems to be taking him awhile.

 

[acbytesla]

I think that many pro-guilt commentators (including Machiavelli, by the look of things) have jumped to the following lazy, misguided conclusion: a simultaneous belief in the black Guede's guilt and the white Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence is an indicator of latent racism.

In my opinion, such a knee-jerk and willfully-insulting "conclusion" tells us far, far more about the people making this accusation than the people they are accusing. Arguably, indeed, one might even philosophically argue that it indicates a form of racism on the part of the accusers......

As regards the Vashon Island gathering, well let's break that down shall we? Knox is Caucasian, and her family are (by definition for blood relatives, and by relatively high probability for marriage/partnership relatives) also Caucasian. So all the family members at the gathering were Caucasian. Knox went to a school which is overwhelmingly Caucasian (and that's a whole different discussion). So her schoolfriends at the gathering were Caucasian. Her parents live in predominantly-Caucasian neighbourhoods, and work in jobs with a predomination of Caucasian co-workers (again, a whole different discussion), so her parents' friends and co-workers at the gathering were Caucasian.

I'd suggest that this probably accounts for well over half the attendees already. An examination of the remainder of the attendees shows no statistical significance for exclusion of ethnic minorities, if one assumes the condition that people who involve themselves in prolonged miscarriage-of-justice discussions/campaigns (discounting those with a direct familial or friend connection) are in ABC1 demographic groups.

In short, an "examination" of the Vashon Island photograph tells us precisely nothing about racial bias or prejudice. Once again, I'm afraid, it tells us a whole lot more about the person making the accusation. Shame on him.

Seattle is one of the most tolerant and liberal cities in the United States. It's also been a mostly white city. There are a few neighborhoods in Seattle which have significant African American populations. But they are few. Rainier Beach, the Central District, White Center (can you believe that?) Delridge in West Seattle. Those were the slums in Seattle. (they really aren't any more, in fact they really weren't then either, but certain real estate covenants led to blacks being relegated to these areas). In fact, they might just be toniest slums in America. Rainier Beach is just that, a neighborhood located on the shore of Lake Washington, the Central District, is between downtown and Lake Washington, blocks from both. Those laws are illegal now and have been since 1964.

Amanda grew up in West Seattle, not far from the Delridge area and White Center, both areas having significant African American population. But blocks in the other direction are homes with some of the most beautiful views anywhere. It's a middle class mostly white neighborhood.

Amanda went to a private Catholic High school which would never discriminate on the basis of color. That said, one had to have the tuition, which would have prohibited me from attending as well as most blacks.

LJ you're right. Seattle only has about a 10 percent black population and a lot of that is concentrated. It wouldn't surprise me that they had a party and every one was white. There is probably more of a chance, that people of Asian or Latin descent would be at their party than African particularly on Vashon.

Vashon Island which is predominantly retired homes and/or vacation property. Vashon doesn't have much industry. So to make a living you have to take the ferry every day which means, you're looking at $260 a month in fares and a twenty minute ferry crossing to get from Vashon to West Seattle. And you still have to drive another 20 minutes to get downtown from the ferry terminal.

I can see why the family had their party there. It's close to their home and still secluded. A quick twenty minute ferry ride from their home and it really feels like another much slower world on the island.

Ok, I'm done with my tour of Seattle's neighborhoods.

 

[Mary_H]

And my judgment of those who think they can diagnose people of other cultures without meeting them, without knowing squat about those cultures, and without credentials in psychology, is that they suffer from something akin to silliness.<snip>

Well said.

 

[Mary_H]

I think a large number of Knox-supporters are racists, I had this feedback from their writings independently from their skin colour, and I already said this in the past.
But the reunion photographs they make a factual statystical anomaly be visible. It's a factual element, independent from the reading of their posts.
There might be other reasons for the etcnical and class composition of this group. Whoever looks at the picture can put a question mark.

Apparently there are about 1-1.5 million Africans in Italy. Are one in sixty Italian judges, lawyers and police officers African? Are there any blacks among the pro-guilt community?

Racism is a pejorative term, but it also can be a relatively neutral term, in my opinion. I am racist to the extent that I do notice the differences between people's ethnicities and their cultural behaviors. I try not to discriminate based on race, but it's hard to avoid when racism is everywhere. It is my observation that most people in the United States (and maybe the world) are more racist than they are aware of being.

And I do agree that racism -- or at least prejudice -- played a big part in this case. Amanda is the YAVIS of murder suspects: young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, and successful. She also is female and American. That's why they chose her.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well it it was Knox, it meas she offered a false alibi. That she lied. And a false alibi is evidence.

There is actually a lot of other evidence, but this one is a piece of evidence too.

Sigh. This is a well worn and long since discredited guilter tactic. Guilter makes a claim, claim is refuted.

Instead of dealing with the refutation, guilter says, "but there's all the other evidence."

Then the process is repeated with the next piece of evidence.

This would be laughable if Cassazione had not made this the key to interpreting this case. It doesn't matter that each of these items in succession is a factoid. ... when all the factoids are taken osmotically then they can give themselves permission to convict.

Ladies and gentlemen I give you confirmation bias.

 

[RoseMontague]

Well it it was Knox, it meas she offered a false alibi. That she lied. And a false alibi is evidence.

There is actually a lot of other evidence, but this one is a piece of evidence too.

Sigh. This is a well worn and long since discredited guilter tactic. Guilter makes a claim, claim is refuted.

Instead of dealing with the refutation, guilter says, "but there's all the other evidence."

Then the process is repeated with the next piece of evidence.

This would be laughable if Cassazione had not made this the key to interpreting this case. It doesn't matter that each of these items in succession is a factoid. ... when all the factoids are taken osmotically then they can give themselves permission to convict.

Ladies and gentlemen I give you confirmation bias.

I think the question was why in the world would Amanda be at the shop in the first place. It appears that the answer is to falsify her alibi. I guess the next question would be why would she want to do that?

 

[Planigale]

Equally strange if she was there why deny it?

 

[Strozzi]

I think the question was why in the world would Amanda be at the shop in the first place. It appears that the answer is to falsify her alibi. I guess the next question would be why would she want to do that?

Amanda was not at Quintavalle's shop at 7:45 or 8 am on Nov 2, 2007. She wasn't shopping for bleach or any other product. Quintavalle has a false memory recollection that came to him 8 months later.

The prosecution needs to use Q's false memory recollection to contend that Amanda lied about her whereabouts that morning, in an effort to make her look like a liar who gave a false alibi about her whereabouts and activity that morning.

It also dovetails nicely with the prosecution's and Massei's contention that there was a clean-up at the crime scene. Get it - bleach implies cleanup, even though there is no evidence of bleach having been used in the cottage on Nov 1/2 and no cash register receipt of bleach being sold at Q's shop early on Nov 2.

The bleach also fits with Finzi's belief that he smelled the odor of bleach at Raffaele's, even though bleach had not been recently used at Raffaele's. Finzi and the prosecution were looking for a bleach angle to the crime, they were invested in it being one element in a cleanup, and want it to be relevant even though it is not by virtue of being non-existent. But I bet if you ask Finzi now about it he will say firmly that he smelled "clean". He imagined it - you can get a lot of mileage by imagining things in an Italian prosecution.

Anyone ordering a pizza in Perugia needs to check their receipt to be sure they were not served bleach. Apparently it is a common mix-up in Perugian restaurants.

 

[Bill Williams]

The reason for this wrongful prosecution of AK and RS.

Meredith Kercher would still be alive if the Italian police had properly responded to the citizen complaints about Rudy Guede.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think the question was why in the world would Amanda be at the shop in the first place. It appears that the answer is to falsify her alibi. I guess the next question would be why would she want to do that?

Equally strange if she was there why deny it?

Of all the strange factoids that guilters talk about, this is the strangest.

And in fairness to Judge Massei, this is not one of his "probablies". He does have the evidence before him, Mignini DID call Quintavalle. The strange thing is that Massei finds Quintavalle's testimony reasonable.

And at the end of the day, even if true, all it does is allow the court to say, "Knox lied about her alibi, ie. being at Raffaele's all night." It still doesn't put her at the cottage, and although the testimony is that the silhouetted woman had wandered by the cleaning products, the one person who saw her can't remember if she bought anything.

So to summarize, there's no evidence of cleaning products used at the cottage, Massei says no one smelled cleaning products (bleach) anyways.... and over at Raffaele's there were already cleaning products (bleach) there...

Why even stop at Quintavalle's store, apparently hanging around outside at 7:45 am waiting for it to open? It is ONLY a story to call into questino the alibi.

Remember what Machiavelli did with Curatolo? He admitted that Curatolo's eyesight was poor - all the while ignoring that the poor man was a junkie. Machiavelli ended that with, "but fortunately there is all the other evidence."

Machiavelli does this now with Quintavalle... there's all sorts of reasons to doubt Q. testimony, despite what <assei claims, but at the end, Mach says, "but fortunately there is all the other evidence."

What other evidence?

You mean like the full profile of Knox in the murder room, or the "abundant DNA" that Harry Rag keeps claiming that is of RS on the clasp? You mean like factoids like that?

Don't worry about those things being debunked, there is still, "but fortunately there is all the other evidence."

It's a good thing that Machiavelli has a comprehensive timeline of this crime with a solid motive that never changes and itself has abundant proof. No wait, you mean he doesn't have those things too?

I guess it's time to play the race card and deal it off the bottom of the deck.

 

[MichaelB]

Amanda has started a Facebook page in the last couple of days. It's great she's using social media and going public like Raffaele did last year.

https://www.facebook.com/amanda.knox.397

 

[RWVBWL]

Dirty Black

Something else I noticed, about statystics and population.
I recall a picture from the Vashon Island pre-Knox reunion, in which there were about 50 people. I recall of another picture from a group at Sollecitos' book presentation at a room of the UoW, with about 60 people.

If they groups were equally representing random population from the city of Seattle, I would have expected to find some non-whites.
As for the 2010 census, 7.9% of the population of Seattle City is African American:

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/53/5363000.html

This would mean 3-4 people in average in every 50 people group.
Even if they are not all from Seattle nor from the State of Washignton, still there should be a significant percentage of African-americans.

But the Knox supporters in the picture stand out for being all whites.
Moreover, I know they are mostly whites from upper-class background - the Knox supporters are not equally distributed among classes and ethnicities.

Hi Machiavelli,
I too seem to recall a picture,
this 1 being a photograph of some police officers receiving awards for a job well done in the Amanda Knox case we discuss.

But for some reason,
I do not recall seeing any Blacks, Asian's nor Hispanic looking people in the photo. Just White police officers.
Do you have a copy of that photograph handy?

I wonder,
are there any racists on The Flying Squad?

Weird how when he was paid $70,000. Euro for an interview with The Daily Mail, Patrick Lumumba stated this:
At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door.

He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.

"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says.
"I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.

"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."

He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation.

"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'

"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated.
Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess. "It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?'

"They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence."*


Callin' a suspect a "Dirty Black"?
Hmmmm...

Why, for some reason, does this seem to convey to me that it was racist white cops who arrested and beat Lumumba?




(*) -Link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

 

[MichaelB]

Meredith Kercher would still be alive if the Italian police had properly responded to the citizen complaints about Rudy Guede.

Yep.

 

[Strozzi]

(*) -Link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html[/QUOTE]

I just read the Daily Mail article based on a paid interview with Lumumba. The man has an amazing memory for fine details - he remembers the see-through clothes he claims Amanda wore. Why would editors at the Daily Mail think that would be worthy of including in their article? Lumumba also remembers how many rounds of drinks various customers had and what blends were in their drinks. So precise are his claims that I can't have confidence in what he is alleged to have said.

I hope Lumumba finds peace. He too is a victim of the Perugia police interrogations, first indirectly and then directly. I assume the police will give him some slack as he pursues future bar and DJ interests, as long as he doesn't speak to reporters again about what really happened to him as the police made him kneel into the wall and hit him during interrogation. Perhaps Briars can help me? What is the Italian for "dirty black"?

 

[Grinder]

I think the question was why in the world would Amanda be at the shop in the first place. It appears that the answer is to falsify her alibi. I guess the next question would be why would she want to do that?

Equally strange if she was there why deny it?

Yes. Why not say she woke up early and wanted to get some disinfectant for the kitchen spill or something else and say she didn't see Lysol so just returned to Raf's and made some coffee and watched him sleep.

The same thing with the plaza. If they actually spent 2 1/2 hours there why not mention it because they could miss Curatolo 30 meters away.

We have people saying that they were clever enough to fake a knife outline (and in that case they were able to get all the blood AND DNA off of it), stage a break-in, dispose of all their bloody clothes, shoes and cleaning equipment, but forgot to coordinate an alibi and incorporate their public appearances into it. We have them saving Rudy's evidence yet not using the knowledge of that evidence to throw suspicion on him.

Kate Mansey's FB friend Antonio Fois was the cub reporter that found all the witnesses except Nara and Formica IIRC. I would like much more information about this guy and how many witnesses he has found since this case. Did he have access to resources to help people remember?

Meredith hung out with her white british friends and the boy downstairs.

Amanda seemed to have a diverse group of people in Perugia she socialized with that didn't include many Americans. She even talked with a black man at a cafe that shockingly she found attractive. Of Mach is sure it was Rudy because of the lack of diversity in Perugia.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Yes, it's because people tend to live among people like themselves, as London John points out. Even in America's melting pot, there are relatively exclusive pocket communities of every nationality and ethnicity represented by the people who live here. Some seek relationships with international people of all shapes and kinds, some don't. A person can't help what community he is born into, but he is welcome to change it if he wants. Family ties are always strong, though.

There definitely is a lot of racism in the United States, although we have laws against it, and are not allowed to be as brazen about it anymore as they are in Italy. Whether there are radical racists among the supporters, I don't know.

Charles Mudede, a writer from The Seattle Stranger, an alternative newspaper, said he was going to write a book about how racism against Africans was reflected in the Kercher case. It seems to be taking him awhile.

I have always found this curious. Raffaele and Amanda white middle class students, Guede always described in the media as an immigrant from Cote d’Ivoire, a drifter\drug dealer\burglar living in a country that doesn’t exactly embrace Africans (deliberate understatement) and yet Perugian law enforcement according to some folk here targeted Raffaele and Amanda almost as soon as Meredith was discovered, it has never made sense to me given racial bias within Italian law enforcement I have never understood why the police as some say here would target two middle class white students.

Perugian authorities could have easily and very quickly thrown the book at Guede, released Raffaele and Amanda and had a quick closure to a murder case, instead and for little or no reason according to some they targeted Raffaele and Amanda.

As for Racial bias, how many of us would have even noticed a news story of an Ivorian drifter\drug dealer had murdered a British student in Italy?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

jumping to conclusions in Norfolk and Perugia

CoulsdonUK,

You raise some interesting questions. Police often latch onto people close by prematurely, and then can't seem to backtrack (Norfolk Four). They had arrested the pair prior to the emergence of definitive evidence against Rudy (notwithstanding Diocletus's point with respect to the early DNA results). If the police had done as you suggest, they would have had to admit that their initial theory of the case was completely wrong. Swapping Guede for Lumumba allowed them to claim that they were mostly right (and only the wily Amanda threw them off at first).

Did racism did play a large role in the investigation or the case as a whole? Everyone's mileage may vary. Other than the "dirty black" verbiage, I don't see evidence of racism in ILE's actions, and I don't see it in the pair or in the pair's supporters. Rudy tried to play the race card, but he is clearly saying whatever it take to minimize the consequences for himself. MOO.