Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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Thanks for your take on Sanders' rather acerbic comments.
I learned a great deal from your post and thanks for those insights on the history of the stratification method.

ETA
The nybooks citation was posted by Byron, AFAIR
 
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Stone said:
I am joined ... by a good number in the second."
I also disagree with the Q hypothesis.
I believe the geographical textual dispersion can reasonably account for the same concerns that the Q hypothesis is designed to solve (and doesn't).
 
Paul very specifically and repeatedly emphasises that he consulted no man about Jesus, and insists that he did not get any information about Jesus from any human man.

You are wrong. Paul says he had spoken with the leaders of Christianity in Jerusalem, Cefas, James and John, and other witnesses of the resurrection. Paul seems exclude Jesus' death and resurrection when speaking about the divine inspiration of his beliefs.
 
I also disagree with the Q hypothesis.
I believe the geographical textual dispersion can reasonably account for the same concerns that the Q hypothesis is designed to solve (and doesn't).

That's very interesting, JaysonR.
From your point of view what are those concerns the Q hypothesis doesn't solve?
 
A wrong reasoning is repeated endlessly in this thread: Paul -or the evangelists- lies. We must not rely on someone that lies. Therefore, all that Paul -or the Gospels- says is untruth.

This is a wrong reasoning because not everything a liar says is untruth. For example: we can find that the liar says a truth when he says something that contradicts his falsehoods or intentions. This is catch a liar, and this simple ruse is the basis to the difficulty rule applied to crucifixion.

You can criticise this rule, but not disregard it. And it is just this what the mythicists are doing here.
 
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Here's a quick overview I found of the Q hypothesis and the people who formulated it.
For some one like me, who's learning and learning some more, the article gives a lot of information about the history of the Q hypothesis.

It also goes into some detail about the hypothesis' lack of acceptance by a good number of scholars.
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96dec/jesus/jesus.htm
"However, the hypothesis is not without problems, which have led to its rejection by a significant minority of scholars. The primary problem is that although Matthew and Luke often agree with Mark but not with each other on details of the triple tradition, they also often disagree with Mark while agreeing with each other. How can this be, if their authors were working without knowledge of each other's work? For example, Matthew and Luke will sometimes change one of Mark's colorful, if rough-and-ready, Greek words to a more polished Greek synonym -- the same synonym in both. Or both will omit one of Mark's vivid details, such as the fact that "four" men lowered a paralytic through a hole in the roof for Jesus to heal. These "minor agreements" between Matthew and Luke against Mark are numerous but picayune, and most two-document defenders attribute them either to coincidence or to efforts by the scribes who recopied the Gospels to make their language match. However, in half a dozen passages Matthew and Luke have taken a complete story from Mark -- Jesus' baptism, for example, or his temptation by the Devil, or the parable of the mustard seed -- and significantly reworked it or expanded it in almost exactly the same way. Indeed, the favorite "Q" passage of Q scholars -- Jesus' "mission" instructions to his disciples not to carry food or money on their travels -- is not, strictly speaking, from Q at all but from a section of Mark that Matthew and Luke rewrote in parallel ways. These "major agreements" between Matthew and Luke against Mark in triple-tradition material have come to be known as Mark-Q overlaps. They are very difficult to explain without hypothesizing that either Matthew or Luke had access to the other's Gospel -- which would obviate any need for Q in the first place."


"... if you believe that Mack's countercultural theories, Kloppenborg's layer-peeling, Theissen's wandering-radicals sociology, and Robinson's exhaustively labored-over Q-reconstruction project add up to a genuine leap in our understanding of where Christianity came from. Many scholars do not. "It's all faux history," says Luke Timothy Johnson, a New Testament professor at Emory University's Candler School of Theology, and the author of The Real Jesus (1996). "They put the Q community in Galilee because we know so little about Christianity in Galilee." "It's not sociological; it's simply ideological," says Richard Horsley, of the University of Massachusetts at Boston, a former student of Koester's who remains friendly with many Q scholars, including Mack, despite a wide divergence from their beliefs. Horsley's latest book, Galilee: History, Politics, People (1995), examines the area's society and culture during the first century. "My book pulls the rug out from under the Cynic sage," Horsley contends. "There's no such thing as a peasant sage, period, in Palestinian Judaism of that time. The sapiential figure -- that's our modern typology, something we've made up. ...."

Then the article get a bit uncharitable
"Attribute the Q phenomenon, if you will, to American enthusiasm, or to American entrepreneurship, or to the American university system, which tolerates more speculative scholarship than the European academy. But there is another factor at work: an understandable lack of willingness to accept that there are limits to what historical research can provide by way of hard information about Jesus and his earliest followers. The only known first-century texts dealing with first-century Christianity are specifically Christian documents, such as the books of the New Testament, and the works of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote at century's end and mentioned Jesus and Christians only twice. So scholars read those books over and over and try to find something new there, or try to bring another discipline -- literary criticism or sociology or anthropology -- to bear on what they read, or hope that archaeologists will dig up new stones and new texts to explore. Given the scholarly urge to break new ground -- especially in America, where there are so many universities -- it is not surprising that an entire industry has grown from the Q scholars' hypothesis."

And it ends, curiously enough, with an even-handed appeal to hope and faith.

Off to read more.
 
-- And you notice, folks, that Ian S too is pretending that I haven't produced any data toward addressing this question. It really is provoking. The same sort of response again and again, reflective of an alternate reality, where no data has been submitted.

If an Ian S or a DeJudge would go line by line through the postings that I just cited at the bottom of the previous page, shewing how the analyses of professional academics of today don't hold up through chapter and verse, that would be one thing. But to just give the same old airy answers that "Nothing has been submitted", "They have nothing" and blah blah blah seems deliberately provocative sometimes, as if mythers know very well that data has been submitted, but that acknowledging it in detail would not follow some weird "playbook".

Ian S also says stuff like "You don't have to spend your time replying". Well, you'll note that the last set of substantive posts I sent (the ones I just linked to) are indeed extremely truculent, _because_ I have been actually following IanS's advice for a while and have not responded substantively for a looooooong time. Most likely, my responses to TC and others that I just linked to here were also a big waste of time, and I should have allowed the fact that I was extremely reluctant this last go-around to dictate my not submitting anything at all.

Stone


So just cite the evidence then.

Where is it?
 
From my perspective the problem with any affirmative MJ position or with any affirmative HJ position is there is a large location, time, language and cultural gap between the people who wrote about the HJ and the hypothetical life of the HJ.

It is just not knowable what went on during the earliest years of Christianity. This is not surprising, it would have been a small sect and keeping records, let alone accurate records would not have been a priority. The closest to information that has come down to us from this period about the origin of Christianity are the writings in the NT. But even the most fundamental questions about these writings like when they were written, where they were written and who wrote them are unknown (although that hasn't kept thousands of scholars over hundreds of years from speculating about what the answers might be).

We do know that there are historic and geographical errors in the NT. We know that the Gospels are not always consistent with each other and what is most important is that the synoptic Gospels are all derived from Mark, which means that there are not independent sources contained in the Gospels to the hypothetical oral traditions that the author of Mark may have derived the facts about an HJ from.

Both sides in this debate look into this information void and speculate. The people who believe that an HJ existed speculate that the thousands of scholars that have studied this and that claim to have knowledge of the facts that bridge the information gap are right and that an HJ obviously existed. On the other hand the people that suggest that there wasn't an HJ look into the information gap and decide that the lack of reliable evidence about an HJ is evidence that an HJ didn't exist.

I think the answer is simpler than either side wants to admit in this debate. There is just no way to know.

Paul's letters are consistent with the idea that an HJ existed in my opinion. I don't think the idea that some of Paul's writings that have come down to us might contain true information can be disproved. But there is also zero external evidence to corroborate Paul's letters and we know that some of them were forged. How is it knowable that they all weren't forged?



What we do know about all of the above, is that the story that was told of Jesus (the only story) was once believed particularly for it's miraculous and supernatural revelations. At the time, those claims were almost certainly very persuasive indeed - at that time people believed that such miracles really happened and that they proved the unquestioned existence and daily actions of gods and their spirit agents.

What has happened since then, in only relatively very recent times, is that science took over from earlier practices of philosophy and theology, and showed for the first time what the real genuine answers are to almost all questions ever asked of the material world (which is the only known world), and in doing that is has clearly exposed those ancient miracle claims as simply religious superstition. The claims about Jesus are not true. And those are claims that characterise almost every relevant mention of Jesus in the biblical accounts (which are the only accounts of Jesus).

So that is a huge difference, and that is “knowable” about the Jesus story. Ie, it is now known, “proven”, to be untrue in all of it’s relevant descriptions of what Jesus was ever supposed to have said and done. There is really nothing of any substance left once you are forced to remove all the impossible and un-believable elements of the biblical descriptions.

What is now also known, is that Paul and the gospel authors were taking their stories and beliefs about Jesus from what they believed to have been written and foretold in the OT.

For most of the past 2000 years, almost everyone on earth believed that the gospels of Mark, Mathew, Luke and John, were written by disciples who personally knew Jesus, or else at least by people who personally knew the disciples and had the stories as first-hand memoirs. Now, almost everyone knows that is almost certainly untrue, and that those bible stories were written anonymously, and relied upon even more anonymous informants, none of whom claimed ever to have seen or known Jesus at all. The bible accounts of Jesus, which are the only accounts, all come from people who were reporting a legend from belief in OT prophecy.

Paul’s letters make that crystal clear. He repeatedly stresses that his information about Jesus comes entirely and completely from what he believed was in the OT. The gospels also keep referring to the OT as a source, and authors like Randel Helms have written books showing beyond all doubt that the gospel authors were using the OT as the source of their Jesus stories. So that is also “knowable”, and we do know that.

There is a great deal that is now known and knowable about the Jesus story. But what is not known is any credible genuine evidence showing Jesus ever existed.

And nor apparently is there any known credible justification for creating a so-called “historical Jesus” by simply discarding all the numerous elements of the actual (original) Jesus story that people now wish to disown in the 21st century.

If it is even proposed (let alone asserted) that any such HJ could possibly be invented (or if you prefer - “revealed” … though such adjectives attempt to imply & assume that he truly IS hidden in that original story) by any method of ditching almost every relevant sentence of the actual (original) Jesus stories, then anyone doing that must justify that process of erasure by explaining clearly and specifically how and why it is valid to erase all the parts that they no longer wish to believe. And that reason cannot validly be that they simply want now to remove all elements which have since proved to be completely impossible and certainly untrue.

IOW - what is now knowable about the Jesus story is that it’s main elements are certainly untrue. And further, we now know that we do need genuine evidence for acceptance of any such stories and their claims. And finally, if anyone claims to have formed a “historical Jesus”, then they must justify any removal of any parts of the actual Jesus story … they have to show why any erasures are valid.
 
What we do know about all of the above, is that the story that was told of Jesus (the only story) was once believed particularly for it's miraculous and supernatural revelations. At the time, those claims were almost certainly very persuasive indeed - at that time people believed that such miracles really happened and that they proved the unquestioned existence and daily actions of gods and their spirit agents.

What has happened since then, in only relatively very recent times, is that science took over from earlier practices of philosophy and theology, and showed for the first time what the real genuine answers are to almost all questions ever asked of the material world (which is the only known world), and in doing that is has clearly exposed those ancient miracle claims as simply religious superstition. The claims about Jesus are not true. And those are claims that characterise almost every relevant mention of Jesus in the biblical accounts (which are the only accounts of Jesus).

So that is a huge difference, and that is “knowable” about the Jesus story. Ie, it is now known, “proven”, to be untrue in all of it’s relevant descriptions of what Jesus was ever supposed to have said and done. There is really nothing of any substance left once you are forced to remove all the impossible and un-believable elements of the biblical descriptions.

What is now also known, is that Paul and the gospel authors were taking their stories and beliefs about Jesus from what they believed to have been written and foretold in the OT.

For most of the past 2000 years, almost everyone on earth believed that the gospels of Mark, Mathew, Luke and John, were written by disciples who personally knew Jesus, or else at least by people who personally knew the disciples and had the stories as first-hand memoirs. Now, almost everyone knows that is almost certainly untrue, and that those bible stories were written anonymously, and relied upon even more anonymous informants, none of whom claimed ever to have seen or known Jesus at all. The bible accounts of Jesus, which are the only accounts, all come from people who were reporting a legend from belief in OT prophecy.

Paul’s letters make that crystal clear. He repeatedly stresses that his information about Jesus comes entirely and completely from what he believed was in the OT. The gospels also keep referring to the OT as a source, and authors like Randel Helms have written books showing beyond all doubt that the gospel authors were using the OT as the source of their Jesus stories. So that is also “knowable”, and we do know that.

There is a great deal that is now known and knowable about the Jesus story. But what is not known is any credible genuine evidence showing Jesus ever existed.

And nor apparently is there any known credible justification for creating a so-called “historical Jesus” by simply discarding all the numerous elements of the actual (original) Jesus story that people now wish to disown in the 21st century.

If it is even proposed (let alone asserted) that any such HJ could possibly be invented (or if you prefer - “revealed” … though such adjectives attempt to imply & assume that he truly IS hidden in that original story) by any method of ditching almost every relevant sentence of the actual (original) Jesus stories, then anyone doing that must justify that process of erasure by explaining clearly and specifically how and why it is valid to erase all the parts that they no longer wish to believe. And that reason cannot validly be that they simply want now to remove all elements which have since proved to be completely impossible and certainly untrue.

IOW - what is now knowable about the Jesus story is that it’s main elements are certainly untrue. And further, we now know that we do need genuine evidence for acceptance of any such stories and their claims. And finally, if anyone claims to have formed a “historical Jesus”, then they must justify any removal of any parts of the actual Jesus story … they have to show why any erasures are valid.

You keep saying all this stuff as if it hasn't already been shown to be an enormous steaming pile of nonsense.

Why on earth would you think that is an effective debating tactic?
 
You are wrong. Paul says he had spoken with the leaders of Christianity in Jerusalem, Cefas, James and John, and other witnesses of the resurrection. Paul seems exclude Jesus' death and resurrection when speaking about the divine inspiration of his beliefs.


David - you are simply wrong on this. Look at Paul's letters. He very clearly DOES say, and repeatedly stresses, that he consulted no human man about Jesus, and that instead all of his knowledge comes from scripture.

That's what his letters actually say, in black and white, repeatedly.

Now if what he says is wrong, and that in fact he did get information about Jesus from any living man, then (a) that is contrary to what he says in his letters, and (b) you then need to quote where Paul himself gives information about a living Jesus that he says he obtained from being told that by any named human person?

In those two trips to Jerusalem, although Paul says he met with John, James, Cephas, or whoever, he does not at any stage iirc say that any of them ever told him anything about Jesus, and he never asked any of them anything about Jesus.

And even after all that - the fact about Paul is that we do not actually know what he really wrote about any of this anyway. Because all we have is Christian "copying" dating from 150 years and more after Paul was thought to have died.
 
David - you are simply wrong on this. Look at Paul's letters. He very clearly DOES say, and repeatedly stresses, that he consulted no human man about Jesus, and that instead all of his knowledge comes from scripture.

That's what his letters actually say, in black and white, repeatedly.

Now if what he says is wrong, and that in fact he did get information about Jesus from any living man, then (a) that is contrary to what he says in his letters, and (b) you then need to quote where Paul himself gives information about a living Jesus that he says he obtained from being told that by any named human person?

In those two trips to Jerusalem, although Paul says he met with John, James, Cephas, or whoever, he does not at any stage iirc say that any of them ever told him anything about Jesus, and he never asked any of them anything about Jesus.

And even after all that - the fact about Paul is that we do not actually know what he really wrote about any of this anyway. Because all we have is Christian "copying" dating from 150 years and more after Paul was thought to have died.

Do you really need to see Paul saying "And James told me some stuff that I didn't get in my vision", before you think it's likely?

This is another one of the stupidest arguments I've seen.
 
David - you are simply wrong on this. Look at Paul's letters. He very clearly DOES say, and repeatedly stresses, that he consulted no human man about Jesus, and that instead all of his knowledge comes from scripture.

That's what his letters actually say, in black and white, repeatedly.
But Paul doesn't say that. He says he got his "gospel" (the good news that Jesus' death had significance to the Gentiles) from "no man". He doesn't say he consulted "no human man" about Jesus.

I'm not sure whether you have given the passages that make you think that Paul "clearly does say, and repeatedly stresses, that he consulted no human man about Jesus", but could you give them here please? It seems an important point that needs to be clarified.
 
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I have responded to this as many thousands of times. You refuse to discuss or even read the relevant material. My current attempt is at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9710693&postcount=2136. Now, do you wish to examine the ideas mentioned there or not? If not, then please say so and stop vainly repeating this stuff.


You told me this before when asking me to read and respond to a particular post of yours, where you said that you had produced the evidence of a real human Jesus.

I asked you repeatedly if your post was claiming to obtain it's evidence from the bible. And you refused repeatedly to confirm that in fact what you were claiming as evidence of Jesus, was coming to you from the bible.

I've said to you before that we have long since passed the stage of talking endlessly about why the bible cannot possibly be reliable evidence of a human Jesus.

What is written in the bible, was written by people who never a knew any living Jesus in any earthly sense at all. That is as much of a fact as we are ever going to get in any of these HJ disputes - the bible was never written by anyone who ever knew anything themselves about Jesus. and moreover, what the bible writers did write about Jesus, was after about 1800 years of unquestioning Christian belief, finally proved scientifically to be untrue superstitious and impossible fiction.

So the bible is not a credible source in any measure at all.

If you are claiming evidence of a human Jesus, then it must come form some other contemporary credible source independent of the completely discredited fictional writing of the bible.

Are you claiming evidence from outside the bible?

If you ARE claiming evidence of Jesus from outside the bible, then I will of course look at it. But we cannot go over again, for what must be literally the 200th time in these threads, why the bible is NOT credible and not a valid source of what it’s preaching and superstitions say about a Jesus figure that none of the bible authors ever knew in any way at all, and where none of their anonymous sources could claim to know Jesus either except by legend from their past.
 
Yes.
I was hoping your memory was better than mine.
Off to the search function it is, then.

ETA
Close.
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=9559836&highlight=hypothesis#post9559836
This is where JaysonR explored the possible reasons for the differing sources for the PA

I think he links to it in the post you link to...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259816

Background to the Thread
This came up in the Historical Jesus thread vicariously, and some questions came up regarding some maps and theories that I was putting forward, so I decided that it would be best to explain the background of where those theories came from.

I produced a map of gospel dispersion, and the question came regarding how this concept was formulated.

What follows is not evidence or solid fact.
It is an ongoing theoretical enterprise of mine to attempt to recreate a possible form of what may have been what this Ebionite sect may have had.

Why Attempt to Recreate the Ebionite Text?
Mostly; because I like curiosities and historical puzzles.
It's an interesting challenge, and harmless enough.

Starting Point
A summary (as the full listing is extensive) of my starting point is decently paraphrased in the Catholic Encyclopedia (I do not mean that I defer to the Catholic Encyclopedia; only that they summarize a lot of data that I do use as a starting point decently enough for explanation here).
...
 
You told me this before ...

I asked you repeatedly ...

I've said to you before that we have long since passed the stage of talking endlessly about why the bible cannot possibly be reliable evidence of a human Jesus ...

So the bible is not a credible source in any measure at all ...

If you are claiming evidence of a human Jesus, then it must come form some other contemporary credible source independent of the completely discredited fictional writing of the bible ...

Are you claiming evidence from outside the bible?

If you ARE claiming evidence of Jesus from outside the bible, then I will of course look at it. But we cannot go over again, for what must be literally the 200th time ...
Wonderful stuff! So you've no time for biblical criticism then? I'll tell the scholars at the Academy. They will be very sad.

ETA See (or rather don't look at) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_criticism
 
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But Paul doesn't say that. He says he got his "gospel" (the good news that Jesus' death had significance to the Gentiles) from "no man". He doesn't say he consulted "no human man" about Jesus.

I'm not sure whether you have given the passages that make you think that Paul "clearly does say, and repeatedly stresses, that he consulted no human man about Jesus", but could you give them here please? It seems an important point that needs to be clarified.

The usual references are to Galatians, aren't they?

"I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ". Gal. 1: 12

The 'it' refers to the particular gospel preached by Paul; interestingly, almost in the next line, he refers to his own persecution of the church. So, presumably he had heard about Jesus then, pre-conversion; unless, of course, it is all forged!
 
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