Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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For those few remaining under the delusion that AGW has stopped...

2013 Brings Warmest November Since At Least 1880
By MARCIA DUNN 12/17/13 01:49 PM ET EST AP

FOLLOW: 2013 Temperature Record, 2013 Warmest November, 2013 Warmest November On Record, November Heat Record, November Temperature Record, Warmest November On Record, Green News
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — November was a hot month for planet Earth.

Government scientists reported Tuesday that last month set a heat record. They say it was the warmest November on record, across Earth, since record-keeping began in 1880.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration says average global temperature, for water and land surfaces combined, was 56.6 degrees (13.7 Celsius). That's 1.4 degrees (0.78 degrees Celsius) above the 20th century average.

It was the 37th consecutive November with above-average temperatures. The last below-average November was in 1976.

It was also the 345th straight month with above-average temperatures. That's almost 29 years.
Among the November hot spots: much of Eurasia, Central America and the Indian Ocean. In Russia, it was the warmest November on record. But parts of North America were cooler than average[/B].


more

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/17/2013-warmest-november_n_4461406.html?utm_hp_ref=green

this is local due to the Arctic dipole weather pattern....
 
Climate change denial a failed meme - even Reddit is fed up

hehe - the playground is shrinking rapidly for the climate deniers....

factually incorrect again....even on Reddit..

There is a de facto ban of climate denial in /r/science, yes,” Allen told ThinkProgress on Tuesday. “We require submissions to /r/science to be related to recent publications in reputable peer-reviewed journals which effectively excludes any climate denial.

The news broke on Monday that Reddit’s popular science forum had been enacting the ban when Allen published a post on the popular environmental news site Grist. The announcement sparked outrage on Reddit, which is a website with pages about every topic under the sun. Users post links and text on these pages, which other users vote positively (upvote) or negatively (downvote), so that the most popular posts are at the top of the page.
Allen’s announcement quickly rose to the top of /r/science’s front page. “Candy coated censorship!” one said. “Insecure dictators,” said another.

“Since when is science so concrete that differing opinions are not allowed?” another user complained. “Its actually this sort of behavior that FUELS ‘deniers.’ If man made global warming is so real, why are so many of you NOT willing to discuss it?”

The answer, Allen said, is that the conversation surrounding global warming constantly tends to wade off into a non-scientific, personal debate that is inappropriate for a science discussion forum. “Statements on /r/science must be supported by meaningfully peer-reviewed science,” Allen said.

Where there is no consensus we ask users to support their comments with links to studies and publications. However, the consensus is so overwhelming in the case of climate change that it would effectively be like allowing people to come into a submission on vaccinations and throw around the claim that vaccines cause autism.
Our policy limits both deniers and skeptics to the extent that /r/science is for the discussion of current, peer-reviewed research and climate skepticism doesn’t have much to show in that regard.

In his piece on Grist, Allen also noted that, while evolution and vaccines do have their disparagers, “no topic consistently evokes such rude, uninformed, and outspoken opinions as climate change.”

Instead of the reasoned and civil conversations that arise in most threads, when it came to climate change the comment sections became a battleground.

Rather than making thoughtful arguments based on peer-reviewed science to refute man-made climate change, contrarians immediately resorted to aggressive behaviors.

… After some time interacting with the regular denier posters, it became clear that they could not or would not improve their demeanor. These problematic users were not the common “internet trolls” looking to have a little fun upsetting people. Such users are practically the norm on reddit.

These people were true believers, blind to the fact that their arguments were hopelessly flawed, the result of cherry-picked data and conspiratorial thinking. They had no idea that the smart-sounding talking points from their preferred climate blog were, even to a casual climate science observer, plainly wrong.

They were completely enamored by the emotionally charged and rhetoric-based arguments of pundits on talk radio and Fox News.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/12/17/3071641/reddit-banned-climate-deniers/

Good on Reddit.....

It's time the discussion moved on to how the reality of climate change will unfold and where.....what to do about mitigating the worst of it.
 
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Ya can't fool the critters
December 18, 2013
EcoAlert: Species from Warmer Atlantic Now Reproducing in Arctic Seas

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblo...-atlantic-new-reproducing-in-arctic-seas.html

•••

climate denial smack down...

WEDNESDAY, DEC 18, 2013 1:00 PM UTC
7 ways to shut down a climate change denier
Comprehensive rebuttals to contrarians' pseudo-scientific explanations why global warming is just a myth
JOHN RENNIE, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/18/7_ways_to_shut_down_a_climate_change_denier_partner/
 
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For those few remaining under the delusion that AGW has stopped....
Seems the News Media are bored with Climate Hysteria

Lawrence Solomon: For global warming believers, 2013 was the year from Hell
2013 was the best of years for climate skeptics; the worst of years for climate change enthusiasts for whom any change – or absence of change — in the weather served as irrefutable proof of climate change. The enthusiasts fell into disbelief that everyone didn’t pooh-pooh the failure of the climate models to perform as advertised. That governments and the public would abandon the duty to stop climate change was in their minds no more thinkable than Hell freezing over. Which the way things are going for them, may happen in 2014.
http://opinion.financialpost.com/20...arming-believers-2013-was-the-year-from-hell/

TV News and Extreme Weather: Don't Mention Climate Change
A new FAIR survey of the national network newscasts (CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News, ABC World News) finds that extreme weather is big news. In the first nine months of 2013, there were 450 segments of 200 words or more that covered extreme weather: flooding, forest fires, tornadoes, blizzards, hurricanes and heat waves.

But of that total, just a tiny fraction--16 segments, or 4 percent of the total--so much as mentioned the words "climate change," "global warming" or "greenhouse gases."
http://fair.org/press-release/tv-news-and-extreme-weather-dont-mention-climate-change/
 
Why is it so hard to understand the difference between a reputable scientific journal and an opinion piece? Opinion pieces are not required to contain any facts at all.
 
Fortunately there is a real world beyond the deniosphere and they are making some significant progress

2013 review: The year in environment

09:00 20 December 2013 by Michael Marshall and Catherine Brahic
For similar stories, visit the Climate Change Topic Guide
Read more: "2014 preview: 10 ideas that will matter next year"

Don't stop at the bad news. Behind the usual headlines about rising greenhouse gas emissions and mostly stalled United Nations negotiations, this was a remarkable year.

For the first time, there were signs that the rise in our carbon emissions may be slowing. The underlying causes seem to be better, more efficient use of energy, and a shifting power supply – mostly towards gas. But we also learned this year that renewable sources of power are growing faster than all other sources including coal.

We are not out of the woods, not by a long shot. Some long-standing fears are becoming a reality – the devastating storm surge from Typhoon Haiyan was magnified by the rising seas, for example. But we are beginning to see the effects of the limited action on climate that governments and people have taken so far.

Here is a selection of the most important, fascinating or simply mind-boggling environment stories of the year.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24777-2013-review-the-year-in-environment.html#.UrUWbnlIn3w
 
Short form for AGW deniers....are you trolling or honestly inquiring? There are several hundred posts in this thread to get a feel for the place :rolleyes:

So...what might call a person who believes the earth is warming, but isn't convinced the cause of the warming has been proven to be Anthropogenic?
 
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Factually incorrect.

But if you would like to put forth the evidence you have to take that position, there are lots of people here that will be happy to show why you are wrong.
 
Factually incorrect.

But if you would like to put forth the evidence you have to take that position, there are lots of people here that will be happy to show why you are wrong.


I don't need any evidence to maintain my position. As an Agnostic Atheist has no obligation to prove while there is no God, a person who does not believe in AGW has no obligation to prove that the cause of Global Warming is Anthropogenic: the burden of proof is on those who claim knowledge that man-made Global Warming is a fact.
 
Here you go - knock yourself out.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
This is a science forum not one of your philo wibble fests

Come back when you actually know something or have a legitimate question regarding climate change....meanwhile...peruse this....at your leisure....
As for me I could care less you are that ill informed to even suggest AGW is not a reality.
There's always a few with deliberate blinkers I suppose - it's only been known for over a century.....I suppose you chose to ignore the memos :rolleyes:

Background/history
http://www2.ucar.edu/atmosnews/opinion/9574/five-things-know-about-carbon-dioxide

Carbon cycle
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/research/themes/carbon/

Current over view

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013...eport-is-out-its-warmer-and-were-responsible/

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013...-the-new-ipcc-climate-change-report-answered/

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/18/7_ways_to_shut_down_a_climate_change_denier_partner/

http://bravenewclimate.files.wordpre...science_kw.pdf

http://climatecongress.ku.dk/pdf/synthesisreport

and another good basics
http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/Resources/gcc/contents.html

Net mass loss of glaciers is a significant indicator as the energies involved are shocking in scale.

Greenland and Antarctic ice sheet decay, continued « The Way Things Break
http://thingsbreak.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/greenland-and-antarctic-ice-sheet-decay-continued/

Net mass loss in Greenland alone is 100cuKm annually and to put that in some perspective...it is a if the world is carpet bominb Greenland with 2000+ Hiroshima nuclear weapons a DAY!!
1 million a year in thermal equivalent to melt that much ice.

a variety of sources - the Arctic Report is very multidisciplinary - I like analog signals - hard to fool the critters

This one gives you a real overview of the strong signals from biota and cryosphere

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/reportcard/

Getting started links and links to other info sources

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...05/start-here/

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate-guide/climate-change

http://climate.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm

http://www.nature.com/climate/index.html

http://aquarium.ucsd.edu/climate/Climate_Change_FAQ/

http://tamino.wordpress.com/climate-data-links/


Keeping up to date

http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/earth_climate/

http://www.physorg.com/space-news/

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/network

http://www.globalchange.gov/whats-new/news

How bad could it be...

Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, the director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, said that if the*
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-to-1-billion/

Monaco declaration - the other threat
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7860350.stm

MITs updated assessment
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0519134843.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6529307.ece
•••••

The stance of the vast majority of the climate science community made by one of their own
•••••

where do I stand??.....in agreement with this

Here is what Gammon had to say concerning links between humans and climate change.

This is like asking, ‘Is the moon round?’ or ‘Does smoking cause cancer?’ We’re at a point now where there is no responsible position stating that humans are not responsible for climate change. That is just not where the science is.…For a long time, for at least five years and probably 10 years, the international scientific community has been very clear.”

In case there is any doubt, Gammon went on:
This is not the balance-of-evidence argument for a civil lawsuit; this is the criminal standard, beyond a reasonable doubt We’ve been there for a long time and I think the media has really not presented that to the public.”

Dr. Richard H. Gammon
Professor of Chemistry and Oceanography*
Adjunct Professor Atmospheric Sciences, University of Washington


Links to Climate Change articles...115 pages from mainstream sources..

Here are the links to the threads from the dawkins science forum....all 115 pages of articles from main stream climate and science sources
From Nov 2006 to current

Most current 15 pages
RichardDawkins.net Forum • View topic - Global Climate Change Science News (Pt. 2)
http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/74571-1.html

previous thread 100 pages
RichardDawkins.net Forum • View topic - Global Climate Change Science News
http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/2184-1.html

and the fossil fuel companies knew this in the mid 90s..

Industry Ignored Its Scientists on Climate

By ANDREW C. REVKINPublished: April 23, 2009

For more than a decade the Global Climate Coalition, a group representing industries with profits tied to fossil fuels, led an aggressive lobbying and public relations campaign against the idea that emissions of heat-trapping gases could lead to global warming.

“The role of greenhouse gases in climate change is not well understood,” the coalition said in a scientific “backgrounder” provided to lawmakers and journalists through the early 1990s, adding that “scientists differ” on the issue.

But a document filed in a federal lawsuit demonstrates that even as the coalition worked to sway opinion, its own scientific and technical experts were advising that the science backing the role of greenhouse gases in global warming could not be refuted.

Industry Ignored Its Scientists on Climate - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/science/earth/24deny.html?_r=2

and some coal companies acknowledge it

http://www.griffincoal.com.au/climatechangeactionplan.html

http://www.skepticalscience.com/prudent-path.html

Now if you have evidence that

a) there is another explanation for the warming
b) the mechanism that underlies that explanation
c) why C02 does NOT act as the main stream climate science community claims.

Then you'll have a voice here......otherwise y'know that little bit about appropriate ridicule....you're just about there..
 
I don't need any evidence to maintain my position. As an Agnostic Atheist has no obligation to prove while there is no God, a person who does not believe in AGW has no obligation to prove that the cause of Global Warming is Anthropogenic: the burden of proof is on those who claim knowledge that man-made Global Warming is a fact.
The burden is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Sufficient evidence is available for that.

(By the way, Agnostic and Atheist are mutually exclusive.)
 
Here you go - knock yourself out.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
This is a science forum not one of your philo wibble fests

Or...these Scientists could predict with accuracy the magnitude of warming they expect to see, and exactly when they expect to see it. If it occurred, then I would be convinced.

It's sort of like what I say to Christians: if there is a Bible-God like you say, then demonstrate the power of prayer. I ask no more, or no less from the AGW Scientists: show me accurate Predictions!

Nevertheless, the AGW Scientists could be right....or they could be wrong. However, until they can show me some Predictions, I think them fools if they take the position that AGW is a fact - for they can't prove it.

All I know now is that CO2 levels are rising and Global Temps are rising - but Correlation is not Causation unless you can adequately prove you identified the mechanism - which can be done via accurate and timely predictions (which haven't been done yet). Ya' know - like what was done with the theories of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and Evolution.

Just my 2 cents.
 
The burden is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Sufficient evidence is available for that.

(By the way, Agnostic and Atheist are mutually exclusive.)

I don't believe it...Please explain how "Agnostic" and "Atheist" are mutually exclusive.
 
Or...these Scientists could predict with accuracy the magnitude of warming they expect to see, and exactly when they expect to see it. If it occurred, then I would be convinced.

It's sort of like what I say to Christians: if there is a Bible-God like you say, then demonstrate the power of prayer. I ask no more, or no less from the AGW Scientists: show me accurate Predictions!

Nevertheless, the AGW Scientists could be right....or they could be wrong. However, until they can show me some Predictions, I think them fools if they take the position that AGW is a fact - for they can't prove it.

All I know now is that CO2 levels are rising and Global Temps are rising - but Correlation is not Causation unless you can adequately prove you identified the mechanism - which can be done via accurate and timely predictions (which haven't been done yet). Ya' know - like what was done with the theories of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and Evolution.

Just my 2 cents.

Funny that you should mention Quantum Mechanics because denying the causal link between rising CO2 levels and rising global temperature is denying QM.
 
Funny that you should mention Quantum Mechanics because denying the causal link between rising CO2 levels and rising global temperature is denying QM.

I will not deny that I believe that a rise in CO2 levels will cause a slight increase in Temps in a relatively closed system - like a Lab or a Greenhouse (and probably on a Planet-wide Scale, too). In fact, it will and has been proven to do so: you increase CO2 and the temps rise in a relatively-closed system. However...on a Planet-wide level the runaway Greenhouse effect that many predict is irresponsible speculation given the facts.
 
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