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Is income tax necessary?

Like regulations that keep poisons out of food or children out of coal mines.

And catch companies that try to keep it quiet that they killed a few hundred people at least by using antifreeze in medicine. But hey those people had it coming and they got a small fine for their perfectly legal action.
 
One month a year with out air travel would be great.

The FAA isn't necessary to air travel, the function is but it needn't be a govt function.


Then each year the republicans can again become shocked that the national park system is part of the federal government. And we never will appreciate the CDC until we get a real plague again and lose say 5% of the population to it like in the good old days.

Yeah the CDC stops lot's of diseases. Why do you keep picking govt agencies that have no significant impact on the cost of govt as examples? Go after something that matters.

I like the idea of getting rid of the Marines and the Air Force. Followed quickly by the elimination of the FBI, DEA, NSA, CIA, NRO and TSA.
 
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These are made up costs. Nothing but baseless claims from govt apologists there.

Oh, thanks for that thorough analysis. It almost makes up for not supporting your original claim.

If done properly, there should still be fees collected and the parks should have remained open.

Who would collect the fees? Let me guess, you think the parks are self sustaining and the fees would cover the cost of running the park. Please don't make that claim without at least googling for some support.

The mail continued to be delivered.

Again, not self sustaining.

The shutdown was done in an inefficient way on purpose by crybaby govt employees and bureaucrats in order to teach the politicians and taxpayers a lesson.

Congress chose the timing, so to the extent they are "crybaby govt employees" I agree.

My message to them is that we don't need you if you don't want to operate on the same basis as the rest of us.

How could a government entity ever operate on the same basis as a private entity? That is beyond absurd.

If you think one month off would be good why don't we just have the government work for only one month, that should be better, right?
 
I like the idea of getting rid of the Marines and the Air Force. Followed quickly by the elimination of the FBI, DEA, NSA, CIA, NRO and TSA.


You do that. I'll call China and tell them we surrender.
 

OK, so how do you get to half? Take out everything but the military? Take out half the military and half of everything else?

I'm not being a jerk, I really want to know what would look more "right" to you. I ask because I work in regulated industries and as much as regulations bug me, most of the ones I have to deal with make some sense.

For example, if you shut down the FDA I'm not buying food in this country. Sorry, that's the day I move to the country and plant a garden. Likewise with flying after you decide we don't need an FAA. I don't want the Enron of flight safety or the Madoff of food safety. That's not to say that either agency is perfect, but they are better than any alternatives I've heard of.
 
Governments of first-world nations spend huge amounts of money on public infrastructure and services. These same nations also tend to impose income tax.

Assuming we want to retain these services, that we want to continue developing and maintaining the infrastructure, and assuming that we also want a healthy economy...

Is imposing an income tax really necessary to achieve this?

Couldn't we instead achieve the same result through other means?

For example, we could impose an additional property tax to make up the difference. People who live in the most expensive properties and larger houses, or live in the most prosperous regions would pay the most tax. (Property tax would be passed on through increased rent, lease and hotel bills for non-homeowners.)

Maybe supplement this with higher sales tax on luxury goods, or government ownership of public utilities, higher annual registration fees for cars that increase in a nonlinear rate with the value of the vehicle, ect.

(I'm just suggesting this as a hypothetical situation, I'm not arguing that we would necessarily be better off getting rid of income tax.)

Thoughts?
I don't usually visit this forum, but.....
Quickly responding here before reading the rest of the thread, one argument for the income tax is that it is relatively progressive, where most other taxes are not, or are less so. In theory, at least, you pay income tax in direct proportion to your income, which means that if you're richer you pay more than if you are poorer, and once the tax is paid, you get to choose what to do with it. Of course this idea is very flawed, alloyed, and relative, but there is at least some merit to the idea. Most other forms of taxation must undergo a good deal of jiggling and recomputation in order not to be regressive and to burden the poor more than the rich.

Property taxation, for example, adds up often to a declaration that people who are deemed too poor to live in a certain style must abandon it. ONce I have bought a house, it is already up to a point necessary that I maintain a certain life-style to keep it. I can't just buy it and be done with it. It is odd that I can buy gold, or guns, or pornography, and never have to support my ownership once these things are bought, but not a home. If I buy a house and the neighborhood around it becomes more stylish, the decisions of others may well force me out even though I once could afford to stay. Many locales have provisions to prevent this value increase from forcing the elderly from their homes, but even these measures are limited. Increased rent is not exactly going to be a popular idea either among those who are already struggling to pay what they do. After all, many of the people now trying with limited success to pay rising rents are already non-payers of income tax. The shift in taxation will not benefit them at all. If added taxes cause some homeowners to sell out and become renters, the problem is compounded. Excessive property taxation ends up being a pretty good formula for concentrating wealth, but if that is not your goal, then it's not optimal.

Luxury taxes are already in place in some areas, with varying results. A big surtax on expensive yachts, for example, had a significant part, I am told, in driving the building of such yachts overseas, an unintended consequence.

Some places do have additional property tax on vehicles according to value (e.g. Connecticut), and that leads to the anomaly that a person in Falls Village, for example, where property values are relatively low and the mill rate thus must be high, pay a great deal more for the same car than their neighbors in richer Salisbury. In other words, the effect is rather the reverse of what many would consider the best goal. Of course, there is an alternative of taxing all vehicles at a set mill rate, perhaps state based, but it adds some administrative problems too. Everywhere that has a sales tax, of course, already collects a sales tax on cars, and that is directly related to the value of the car sold.

In New York (last I knew at least) cars are taxed at registration based on weight, which has some merit at least for economy if not for wealth, as a hefty old clunker will cost more than a sleek new BMW.

All sorts of arguments can be brought for and against all sorts of taxes, of course, but the fundamental question here seems to be "what is so bad about income taxes?" Why do you think a nation would be better off without them?
 
Income taxes are unneccessary & inefficient.

The most efficient tax is an Economic Rent Tax that, unlike all others, does NOT add to prices, does not deter production, distort market mechanisms or otherwise create deadweight losses.

I'd never heard of that before. Using it to replace income tax is an interesting idea.
(I'm not sure about whether or not it's a good idea, it's still an interesting idea.)

Anything that disturbs the Free Market is a deadweight loss.

You mean like safety regulations? :p

(Okay, I know you weren't talking about that sort of thing.)

Here in the US income tax is not even 100 years old. Read up on the history of taxation, worthy read.

The fact that income tax is a fairly recent innovation is what got me thinking along these lines.
 
Quickly responding here before reading the rest of the thread, one argument for the income tax is that it is relatively progressive, where most other taxes are not, or are less so.

That is definitely a major point in favor of income tax. Although, I wonder (as a thought experiment) if there might be some way produce taxes not based on income that still manage to to be effectively progressive.

In theory, at least, you pay income tax in direct proportion to your income,

I don't think that's quite correct. With progressive income taxes, the higher your income the greater the proportion of your income you pay in tax. So it's not in direct proportion.

Of course this idea is very flawed, alloyed, and relative, but there is at least some merit to the idea.

I'll agree that there are both flaws and merits in the idea of income tax, but I have no idea what you mean by "alloyed".

Most other forms of taxation must undergo a good deal of jiggling and recomputation in order not to be regressive and to burden the poor more than the rich.

That's usually the case, assuming that any attempt to prevent them from being regressive is made.

Property taxation, for example, adds up often to a declaration that people who are deemed too poor to live in a certain style must abandon it. ONce I have bought a house, it is already up to a point necessary that I maintain a certain life-style to keep it. I can't just buy it and be done with it. It is odd that I can buy gold, or guns, or pornography, and never have to support my ownership once these things are bought, but not a home. If I buy a house and the neighborhood around it becomes more stylish, the decisions of others may well force me out even though I once could afford to stay.

Hmmm....

That brings up another thought. In some places the government sometimes packages land into a 99 year lease instead of selling it to the general public. (Looking it up, it seems that all land in our capital territory is held under 99-year leases, including private residences.)

Why couldn't a nation have all land owned by the government which then provides it to the public via a perpetual lease with transferable-title and adjustable rental-fee? The property-tax would effectively be the rent for use of the land.

In that situation this objection wouldn't apply because you don't technically own the land.

Excessive property taxation ends up being a pretty good formula for concentrating wealth, but if that is not your goal, then it's not optimal.

That brings up another interesting thought. Is concentration of wealth necessarily a bad thing?

All sorts of arguments can be brought for and against all sorts of taxes, of course, but the fundamental question here seems to be "what is so bad about income taxes?" Why do you think a nation would be better off without them?

I don't necessarily think that a nation would be better of without them (I have no particular reason to think that this would be the case). Part of the reason I'm asking this is that it seems to be a bit of a kludge, and I'm wondering if there could be a more elegant solution out there.
 
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That is definitely a major point in favor of income tax. Although, I wonder (as a thought experiment) if there might be some way produce taxes not based on income that still manage to to be effectively progressive.



I don't think that's quite correct. With progressive income taxes, the higher your income the greater the proportion of your income you pay in tax. So it's not in direct proportion.



I'll agree that there are both flaws and merits in the idea of income tax, but I have no idea what you mean by "alloyed".
True, the proportion is not direct in one sense, but it is calculable and, one hopes, consistent, and at least one is taxed in proportion to what one actually gets, rather than in proportion to some estimation of what one ought to give or ought to have, even if there's a big "ought to" in what proportions are settled on. By "alloyed" I mean that taxes are mitigated or occasionally the opposite by various factors, some obvious and some not, some things are given preference while others are not, and in the case of reinvestment, as well as in the case of some corporate profits, the idea that income is taxed only once around falls apart. In short, a lot of stuff is mixed into the tax.
That's usually the case, assuming that any attempt to prevent them from being regressive is made.



Hmmm....

That brings up another thought. In some places the government sometimes packages land into a 99 year lease instead of selling it to the general public. (Looking it up, it seems that all land in our capital territory is held under 99-year leases, including private residences

Why couldn't a nation have all land owned by the government which then provides it to the public via a perpetual lease with transferable-title and adjustable rental-fee? The property-tax would effectively be the rent for use of the land.

In that situation this objection wouldn't apply because you don't technically own the land.



That brings up another interesting thought. Is concentration of wealth necessarily a bad thing?



I don't necessarily think that a nation would be better of without them (I have no particular reason to think that this would be the case). Part of the reason I'm asking this is that it seems to be a bit of a kludge, and I'm wondering if there could be a more elegant solution out there.

Of course concentration of wealth may not be a bad thing if you think the rich should get richer and the poor poorer.

Government ownership of all land seems an interesting idea, I suppose, but it brings up some problems. Land is presently one of the largest and most important investments and legacies in many people's lives. While there may well be arguments for making fee-simple land ownership a thing of the past it certainly would change the economy in many ways. Numerous issues of succession, renewal, rent control, protection of dissidents, and so forth arise. Of course it's not going to happen anyway. If a significant portion of the voting public are convinced that health care reform is rampant socialism, I don't think we need hold our breath waiting for the actual, dyed-in-the-wool socialism of the government confiscating everyone's land.

All taxes are at least a bit of a kludge, I think, because there are so many interests to be served. It's pretty hard if not impossible to find a tax that does not burden someone in a way that either is or seems unfair, or is represented as such by someone, and so a lot of taxes are modified in various ways to try to make them less unfair with varying degrees of success. Given how hard, if not impossible, it is to tax a huge and diverse population both fairly and effectively, perhaps the down side of elegance and simplicity is too great.

There's a pretty good certainty that whatever I contend about just about anything will be contested by someone, a very good chance that much of it will be better argued, and a pretty good chance that at least some of it will be better all around. You can't make this stuff simple.
 
I am just wondering how much the generous income tax lovers actually pay. Does anyone here pay max marginal and has anyone here ever paid 6 figures income tax? If not, I think your opinions really don't matter because in my opinion, you are just advocating something you never intend to be affected by.
 
I am just wondering how much the generous income tax lovers actually pay. Does anyone here pay max marginal and has anyone here ever paid 6 figures income tax? If not, I think your opinions really don't matter because in my opinion, you are just advocating something you never intend to be affected by.
I am not sure I ever met a "generous income tax lover" myself. I have known a few people who believed the income tax was preferable to other taxes, at least as various taxes occur in practice, but this does not require some extraordinary generosity.

I doubt many of us here have paid any six-figure taxes, as such a tax, if not confiscatory, would imply a very high income indeed, at least if one is speaking of American dollars. I am not familiar with the term "max marginal."

As far as disqualification, I am not sure why anyone should be disqualified from an opinion. Are you suggesting that the poor should not wish for the rich to pay more, because they themselves are not rich? We are all affected, in some degree, by what everyone does. An opinion should be right or wrong on its merits.

I should add that complying with a law and even approving of it does not somehow imply that one must exceed it. In the US at least, tax code requires that one pay the legal minimum, and legal tax avoidance is permitted and expected. One is, of course, free to contribute as much as one likes to the Treasury, but if you overpay your tax they'll send it back.
 
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I am not sure I ever met a "generous income tax lover" myself. I have known a few people who believed the income tax was preferable to other taxes, at least as various taxes occur in practice, but this does not require some extraordinary generosity.

I doubt many of us here have paid any six-figure taxes, as such a tax, if not confiscatory, would imply a very high income indeed, at least if one is speaking of American dollars.

As far as disqualification, I am not sure why anyone should be disqualified from an opinion. Are you suggesting that the poor should not wish for the rich to pay their share, because they themselves are not rich? We are all affected, in some degree, by what everyone does.

Who defines the share the rich should pay and what is rich ? Income doesn't make one rich. Income arrives for various different reasons and it's not a sure or steady thing except at the lowest levels of income. People with higher incomes have a limited opportunity to earn those incomes. The wealthy who have large holdings of assets that generate income will much more likely be able to continue generating large incomes. High salary earners and professionals, not so much. Even professional athletes who make 7 figure incomes have a limited number of years they are able to earn those incomes.

Why would a higher income person pay a higher share of the burden of society than a poor person when they both receive essentially the same benefits? In fact, the poor person probably receives greater benefits.

A person who knows they will never earn enough to pay a six figure tax bill will always be in favor of others who do earn that much to have to pay the bill. Why not? They will never have to be bothered by it. So of course their opinion is biased and in particular if the poor could be subsidized by those rich paying more, then the poor are even further biased in their opinion.
 
Who defines the share the rich should pay and what is rich ? Income doesn't make one rich. Income arrives for various different reasons and it's not a sure or steady thing except at the lowest levels of income. People with higher incomes have a limited opportunity to earn those incomes. The wealthy who have large holdings of assets that generate income will much more likely be able to continue generating large incomes. High salary earners and professionals, not so much. Even professional athletes who make 7 figure incomes have a limited number of years they are able to earn those incomes.

Why would a higher income person pay a higher share of the burden of society than a poor person when they both receive essentially the same benefits? In fact, the poor person probably receives greater benefits.

A person who knows they will never earn enough to pay a six figure tax bill will always be in favor of others who do earn that much to have to pay the bill. Why not? They will never have to be bothered by it. So of course their opinion is biased and in particular if the poor could be subsidized by those rich paying more, then the poor are even further biased in their opinion.
I am not going to bother to argue whether you are right or wrong. A person is entitled to an opinion, even an odious one. If it's wrong, it's wrong because it's wrong, not because the wrong person said it. If you take your idea all the way, the rich can no more say what the poor should do than the poor can say what the rich can do. We can all set our own tax rates.
 
I am just wondering how much the generous income tax lovers actually pay. Does anyone here pay max marginal and has anyone here ever paid 6 figures income tax? If not, I think your opinions really don't matter because in my opinion, you are just advocating something you never intend to be affected by.

I make enough to pay 6 figures in income tax.

But I've already been skewered around here for my tax opinions ;)
 
Who defines the share the rich should pay and what is rich ? Income doesn't make one rich. Income arrives for various different reasons and it's not a sure or steady thing except at the lowest levels of income. People with higher incomes have a limited opportunity to earn those incomes. The wealthy who have large holdings of assets that generate income will much more likely be able to continue generating large incomes. High salary earners and professionals, not so much. Even professional athletes who make 7 figure incomes have a limited number of years they are able to earn those incomes.

Why would a higher income person pay a higher share of the burden of society than a poor person when they both receive essentially the same benefits? In fact, the poor person probably receives greater benefits.

A person who knows they will never earn enough to pay a six figure tax bill will always be in favor of others who do earn that much to have to pay the bill. Why not? They will never have to be bothered by it. So of course their opinion is biased and in particular if the poor could be subsidized by those rich paying more, then the poor are even further biased in their opinion.

That's why I am in favor of cutting certain government entitlement benefits. I'm not saying to leave the elderly and disabled homeless and starving, but surely there are entitlements that can be reduced or eliminated.
 

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