Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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But, like I say, the distinction between 'supernatural deeds' and 'perfectly ordinary human things' is a modern one. First-century Jews, the educated ones let alone the uneducated peasants, wouldn't have made this distinction, and neither would most people throughout history (or, perhaps, today). To a Josephus a Roman Emperor who won in battle by might be just as 'supernatural' as a peasant who performed miracles, while the miracle-worker might be manipulating 'natural' forces. Was recovery from illness 'natural' when people hadn't the first clue how the human body and disease worked? Or was it 'supernatural'?

Still on the battle thing, recall how the stories generally include sacrifices to the gods, divine intervention, and so on. Modern (post-eighteenth-century) scholars have made the Romans in their own image as rational sorts of chaps who were good at all that strategizing stuff, but in reality the Romans were deeply superstitious religious types who attributed everything from illness to gain or loss in battle to the favour or disfavour of the gods. The line between 'miracle' and 'everyday event' is drawn in an entirely different place in Antiquity.



Why do you think any of the above is relevant to anything I said?

What I am pointing out, and it should be obvious to everyone here, is that (a) Jesus is described entirely and completely in terms of the supernatural & is claimed to be the supernatural offspring of Yahweh in heaven, and where (b) nobody who ever wrote about him had ever known him in any way at all, and where (c) there is absolutely not one shred of genuine credible evidence of his human existence.

That is emphatically not the case with any of the other figures that have been mentioned here as comparable.

If you take Roman emperors such as Julius Caesar as an example (and Caesar is the most common example claimed by Christian apologists) then Caesar was known primarily not as a supernatural god who nobody had ever seen and for whom there is zero evidence. On the total contrary, Caesar is known overwhelmingly for the very human actions he engaged in, where he was personally known to many people of the time who wrote about all manner of interactions with him … his armies left museums full of their remains, and there is a vast mountain of evidence for his existence.

So although Caesar, like other Roman emperors of that time, may have been occasionally praised by sycophantic courtiers telling him he had become a God etc., is not remotely comparable with the case of Jesus.

But instead of Roman emperors like Caesar, it was suggested that the more obscure ancient philosophers might be comparable to Jesus.

Well “none” of them are comparable to Jesus either. Because, like Caesar (and completely unlike Jesus), they were (a) known overwhelmingly for the human things they were said to have done, and were not famous for being miraculous supernatural gods, and (b) they left extensive philosophical theories that were not supernatural and which have survived to this day, and where (c) afaik, many of those philosophers were described in the writing of their contemporaries of the time.

And that’s apart from the fact that (as I explained before), even if there are/were cases of the most obscure of ancient philosophers and/or the most obscure of national leaders (eg Roman emperors) where little or no evidence existed for them, then nobody today would care for even one second about that. So there would be no great debate of the kind that we see for Jesus, because none of those other figures has any relevance at all to the daily lives of 99.999% of the people alive on earth today! IOW, to spell it out - even if some such ancient figures were likely to be no more than fiction, nobody today can be bothered to investigate it and argue about it, because those figure are utterly irrelevant and of no interest to virtually anyone alive today!

To put all that another way - can you think of any other person in history who is actually comparable to the Jesus story, and yet where genuine academics have claimed to have a solid believable case for their actual existence? ....

.... that figure would need to be - (a)described entirely for their supernatural feats, (b) not known to anyone who ever saw, heard or otherwise ever met or knew them, (c) where there is actually no evidence of any kind for their existence except in 2000 year old written religious preaching of the supernatural, (d) where there is only one completely religious source of their existence in which, the almost all completely anonymous writers, openly and repeatedly say that they obtained and justify their beliefs in this figure from what was written (or what they believed to have been written) many centuries before in their most holy of guiding books of God where the ancient prophets of God had for at least 500 years previously been certain that God would send just such a supernatural saving messiah?? Can you think of any other figure like that in history, where academics nevertheless say they are convinced that this person actually existed??

There are of course plenty of other claimed figures just like that in ancient history. I.e., just like Jesus. But they are now known all to be entirely fictional mythical gods, spirits, angels, demons and devils etc. Those figures are indeed very much like Jesus, where they too are (a)devoid of any credible evidence on earth, (b) never reliably seen by any contemporary writer, (c ) only or mainly described in holy beliefs and preaching of the supernatural realm of Yahweh, (d) described entirely or almost entirely in term of their supernatural miraculous acts.

In short and in summary - the idea that Jesus is comparable to ancient philosophers or ancient Roman Rulers etc., is utterly untrue and manifestly absurd. And nobody here should entertain such obviously untrue and frankly disingenuous comparisons for one moment (or waste any more breath on such completely bogus claims).
 
... that figure would need to be - described entirely for their supernatural feats
Does that mean that no non-supernatural acts are ascribed to Jesus? If it does mean that, it is plain wrong. Consider Mark 15
25 It was nine in the morning when they crucified him. 26 The written notice of the charge against him read: the king of the jews. 27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left. 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 come down from the cross and save yourself!” 31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him. 33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). 35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.” 36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said. 37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.
Nothing remotely supernatural in this. A supernatural few words are tacked on next.
38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”
Thus this curtain-ripping is attributed to God, not to the living Jesus.
 
Yes, I was thinking that about the various teachings of Jesus. Why are they completely supernatural?

For example, in Mark 4, a 'very large crowd' gathers, and Jesus uses the parable about seed falling on stony ground, and so on. This is normal for a Jewish preacher, isn't it? In fact, as far as I can see, Jewish rabbis still like to tell stories.

Jesus also offers specific ethical instructions, interpretations of the Torah, deals with questions, including trick questions, and so on. I don't see why any of this is 'supernatural' - it is what Jewish charismatic hasidim did.
 
Yes, I was thinking that about the various teachings of Jesus. Why are they completely supernatural?

For example, in Mark 4, a 'very large crowd' gathers, and Jesus uses the parable about seed falling on stony ground, and so on. This is normal for a Jewish preacher, isn't it? In fact, as far as I can see, Jewish rabbis still like to tell stories.
Mark 3 is even less supernatural.
Mark 3:20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” ... 29 but (he said) "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” 30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.” 31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
 
Yes, I get that, and barring the acknowledged quibble about degrees of confidence and knowledge, I agree. It's my fault for not being clearer - that question was intended to be directed at the mythicists, as they seem (here, anyway) to be particularly shouty about something they can't prove, which raises several questions which I haven't yet seen a good answer to, and which has no practical effect that I can see. Yet they hammer on, and scornfully dismiss even the vaguest notion that the seed of the stories may have been a genuine person, even if his life became so layered with myth and hagiography that we have no way of reliably knowing anything about him. I just can't see what it's meant to achieve.

The atheists who believe the Bible is a source of history for Jesus of Nazareth but not for the God of Moses cannot present any supporting corroborative evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was baptized by John and crucified under Pilate.

In the writings of Josephus, John the Baptist and Pilate were not associated with Jesus of Nazareth. In fact, there is no character called Jesus of Nazareth in Josephus.

The HJ argument is unsustainable. It is mere speculation without a shred of evidence.

There are hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and Apologetic writers which clearly state Jesus of Nazareth had no human father and was God Creator.
 
Mark 3 is even less supernatural.

The 'out of his mind' bit is one of the prongs of an old joke, that the Jesus mission is a classic charismatic one, but a shambolic failure - his family think he's mad, his disciples haven't a clue what he's on about, many Jews think he's a blasphemer, he's betrayed, and he gets killed. So much for the Pantocrator (Ruler of All)!
 
The 'out of his mind' bit is one of the prongs of an old joke, that the Jesus mission is a classic charismatic one, but a shambolic failure - his family think he's mad, his disciples haven't a clue what he's on about, many Jews think he's a blasphemer, he's betrayed, and he gets killed. So much for the Pantocrator (Ruler of All)!

You seem to have conveniently forgotten that Jesus resurrected exactly as he predicted in gMark.

Mark 16:6 KJV ----And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted : Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified : he is risen ; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Jesus' prophecy came true in gMark.

No human being have actually died for days and resurrected--only the Son of God in gMark.
 
You seem to have conveniently forgotten that Jesus resurrected exactly as he predicted in gMark.

Mark 16:6 KJV ----And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted : Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified : he is risen ; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Jesus' prophecy came true in gMark.

No human being have actually died for days and resurrected--only the Son of God in gMark.

Which team are you playing on? The Battlin' Bible Thumpers or the Athletic Atheists Association?
 
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....It is diffiult to prove a negative without establishing something specific which is incompatible with whatever is being denied. Mythological or intentionally fabricated origin is incompatible with real origin. It's hard to see what else could confidently be asserted that trumps a religious-minded guy running afoul of his brutal overlords and afterwards being sighted by his firends as a ghost (the same friends who thought they saw his ghost when he was still alive).


If it is difficult to prove a negative then how will it be proven that Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a figure of mythology.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a virgin, was God Creator that walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

How in the world can you prove that Jesus of Nazareth was NOT as described?

How in the world can you prove that the story of Jesus was NOT mythological?

It is virtually impossible for you to do so.

It has never been done.

Jesus of Nazareth is a Myth until it can be proven otherwise.
 
You seem to have conveniently forgotten that Jesus resurrected exactly as he predicted in gMark.

Mark 16:6 KJV ----And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted : Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified : he is risen ; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Jesus' prophecy came true in gMark.

No human being have actually died for days and resurrected--only the Son of God in gMark.
Bad choice. Take a later gospel if you want Biblical resurrection stories. Why, in John 21 Jesus cooks a lakeside fish breakfast for the disciples after he's let them poke about in his wounds! But Mark only states there was an empty tomb. When we look for the subsequent account of the resurrected Jesus in Mark 16, NIV, here is what we find in Biblical concordances.
The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.
 
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dejudge

If it is difficult to prove a negative then how will it be proven that Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a figure of mythology.
I suspect it won't ever be proven, one way or the other.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a virgin, was God Creator that walked on the sea, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.
In some of the many disparate works you find in the New Testament. Does the literary term anthology ring any bells? Different authors saying different things, ... any bells at all?

How in the world can you prove that Jesus of Nazareth was NOT as described?
I'd go with the different authors, writing over the course of at least a generation, contradicting each other. John 21 pretty much kills the "coming back soon" attribute, for instance.

How in the world can you prove that the story of Jesus was NOT mythological?
You're repeating yourself.

Jesus of Nazareth is a Myth until it can be proven otherwise.
I had read somewhere that that was your opinion. Good to hear it from the horse's mouth.
 
Could you please provide some evidence for this claim?

There have been a number of people who claimed to be, or were claimed by others to be, the messiah prophesied by Jewish apocalypticists. Here are a few from just the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE:

Judas Maccabeus - 167-160 BCE
Simon of Peraea - around 4 BCE
Athronges - around 4-2 BCE
Judas of Galilee - 6 CE
Menahem ben Judah - Son or grandson of Judas of Galilee
Theudas - 44-46 CE
John of Gischala - 70 CE
How do you know those people existed? In which religious texts were they written about?
 
He's on your side tsig.

Think about that.
This just demonstrates beyond any doubt that in your hurry to deride others, categorize them and dismiss them, you really don't read what people have written in this and other related threads.
 
This just demonstrates beyond any doubt that in your hurry to deride others, categorize them and dismiss them, you really don't read what people have written in this and other related threads.

I have read all of tsig's contributions to the debate. It took about two minutes.

You seem to be pretty quick on the draw there too, sunshine.

I haven't done anything to provoke you.

Unlike tsig who constantly lies and cherry picks in these threads, apparently as deliberate provocation.

It can't be honest debate at this point.

Sorry.
 
Bad choice. Take a later gospel if you want Biblical resurrection stories. Why, in John 21 Jesus cooks a lakeside fish breakfast for the disciples after he's let them poke about in his wounds! But Mark only states there was an empty tomb. When we look for the subsequent account of the resurrected Jesus in Mark 16, NIV, here is what we find in Biblical concordances.

Well, the story in the short gMark ended when Jesus resurrected. That is all.

Verses 9-20 of Mark 16 is the later additional post-resurrection scene when he commissioned the disciples to reach the Gospel and ascended.

In any event, gMark is filled with magic from the baptism of Jesus with the Holy Ghost bird, and the voice from heaven.

It is clear that gMark is not history but pure unadulterated mythology.

Every single miracle of Jesus in gMark is either total fiction or could not have happened.
 
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... Every single miracle of Jesus in gMark is either total fiction or could not have happened.
How true! But here is another true statement: not everything that gMark attributes to Jesus is a miracle.
 
...unadulterated ...

Now, there's a word not being used correctly. The Mythology in Mark is adulterated with lots of stuff about a family who think he's crazy, Disciples who don't understand his lessons and everyone is constantly being told to shut-up about it all.

Funny old world.:)
 
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