Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[toto]

I watched the doco in its entirety.

If you haven't, I'm here to tell you; the guy hangs off the bars and then lowers himself and then re-ascends using only the ledge.

it appears that he was instructed to do so.

Why wasn't he instructed that he was NOT to use the bars as hand-holds in the first place.....?

Human stupidity - it seems to have no bounds.

Yes, I have seen the whole documentary! I still have the programme on my sky plus machine and the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JL6nIkaYLs is what is on the C5 doc. People can make up their own minds on what they see. For me, in agreement with you, quite clearly a young athletic man can get in those windows without any bars, which is the important point. I also agree with you that the makers of the documentary should have told him to avoid touching the above bars and been quite explicit to the viewer about the significance why he shouldn't use the bars. It would have been enormously helpful if the programme makers, since they bothered to go to Perugia, had spent more time looking at the various possible entry points and given us more detail regarding possibility of being seen etc. It would have been helpful if the makers of the programme had immersed themselves in this and PGP websites to see what light they could bring on a whole range of issues!

 

[acbytesla]

Kwill linked to the 2011-12 version of the Times World University Rankings. I was referring to the 2013-14 list.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking

Two years and Leeds drops almost a hundred places??


Doesn't matter.

 

[moije2]

As a Yorkshire lass I have to point out according to Times world rankings Leeds U is 139 and Washington U 300 - 350 too low to even get an individual ranking.

I am a little late to the game but...

Leeds 142nd
http://www.timeshighereducation.co....world-ranking/institution/university-of-leeds

University of Washington 24th
http://www.timeshighereducation.co....-ranking/institution/university-of-washington

Washington University (St Louis Missouri) 44th
http://www.timeshighereducation.co....institution/washington-university-in-st-louis

Again, one does have to consider that some departments may be stronger than others. for instance, the Med School at Washington University was at one point I believe considered the <number one> in that field, and recently I have heard in the top ten. But how does one come up with that number anyway. Research grants? Whatever.

But anyway you look at it, AK was a student at a very strong university, and not over shadowed by Leeds. U Dub must be doing something right to have such ranking.

 

[Sonia]

Two years and Leeds drops almost a hundred places??


Doesn't matter.

Leeds world ranking 2011-12: 133
2012-13: 142
2013-14: 139 (tied with Colorado School of Mines)

Doesn't matter. But if we are quoting the Times rankings, let's do it accurately.

 

[Grinder]

As a Yorkshire lass I have to point out according to Times world rankings Leeds U is 139 and Washington U 300 - 350 too low to even get an individual ranking.

Well she didn't go to Washington U - that's in St. Louis if my University of WA education was accurate

On this list we are rated #16 and it was the first I found -

Leeds is in 151 -200 category.

ETA - my point was the meme that Amanda felt inferior wasn't backed by facts including that she went to an internationally respected university.

As I mentioned she played some instruments (not guitar) and had danced, played soccer, rock climbed and had earned the money for her trip.

I'm sorry that the PGP made such a deal about Meredith being Amanda's better and I doubt anyone thought that at the time.

 

[Grinder]

Yes, I have seen the whole documentary! I still have the programme on my sky plus machine and the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JL6nIkaYLs is what is on the C5 doc. People can make up their own minds on what they see. For me, in agreement with you, quite clearly a young athletic man can get in those windows without any bars, which is the important point. I also agree with you that the makers of the documentary should have told him to avoid touching the above bars and been quite explicit to the viewer about the significance why he shouldn't use the bars. It would have been enormously helpful if the programme makers, since they bothered to go to Perugia, had spent more time looking at the various possible entry points and given us more detail regarding possibility of being seen etc. It would have been helpful if the makers of the programme had immersed themselves in this and PGP websites to see what light they could bring on a whole range of issues!

Thanks and I agree. I've looked a number of times and there is a cut between his putting his hands on the sill and him sitting on it (with his hand holding the bar). Having said that it is clear that since he could reach the sill while standing on the bottom sill of the bottom window that Rudy most certainly could have made it to the window.

I think reaching up and through a broken window to the latch which is about a third of the way up (I think) would be more tricky than others here think, but it really isn't very important.

It would have been great if they would have restored the window to how it was that night and had the guy do the whole thing. Throw the rock and climb through the window. They could even have put shutters that needed to be wedged in place even though I don't believe Filomena in her haste closed them.

 

[JREF2010]

Thanks and I agree. I've looked a number of times and there is a cut between his putting his hands on the sill and him sitting on it (with his hand holding the bar). Having said that it is clear that since he could reach the sill while standing on the bottom sill of the bottom window that Rudy most certainly could have made it to the window.

I think reaching up and through a broken window to the latch which is about a third of the way up (I think) would be more tricky than others here think, but it really isn't very important.

It would have been great if they would have restored the window to how it was that night and had the guy do the whole thing. Throw the rock and climb through the window. They could even have put shutters that needed to be wedged in place even though I don't believe Filomena in her haste closed them.

I think the pgp could have a drunk drug addict high on heroin attempt it and not be able to do it to prove its impossible.

 

[JREF2010]

They ran when Rudy did around 10:30 prior to any car breakdown. They had been in the piazza earlier to meet or buy drugs. Curatolo was not a security guard and had no reason to watch continuously. Meredtih was wearing a zip up sweatshirt not heavy outer wear. Maybe 9pm was already getting late to call her ailing mother so no repeat call. We have no idea how much they needed to clean themselves They put their coats on and covered up.Rudy was the one who nelt by the victim and carried around bloody towels.He may have washed up in the bathroom but there would have been a lot of splashing and much more blood evidence. Someone took the time to clean up. A quick trip home to Sollecito's the defendants could have been back waiting in the piazza for the tow truck to leave just before 11pm

The underlined is what has always been a issue with the prosecutions case.
Wheres the evidence the above did happen?

 

[Samson]

Thanks and I agree. I've looked a number of times and there is a cut between his putting his hands on the sill and him sitting on it (with his hand holding the bar). Having said that it is clear that since he could reach the sill while standing on the bottom sill of the bottom window that Rudy most certainly could have made it to the window.

I think reaching up and through a broken window to the latch which is about a third of the way up (I think) would be more tricky than others here think, but it really isn't very important.

It would have been great if they would have restored the window to how it was that night and had the guy do the whole thing. Throw the rock and climb through the window. They could even have put shutters that needed to be wedged in place even though I don't believe Filomena in her haste closed them.

If the shutters were open, it supports the choice of window the PGP hypothesise as illogical, but opening the shutter standing on the concrete planter gripping the rough tile roof (possibly standing on the rock for extra height) would be dead easy before taking 5 steps to the car park to hurl the rock. I don't believe for a minute he climbed twice.

 

[Grinder]

I think the pgp could have a drunk drug addict high on heroin attempt it and not be able to do it to prove its impossible.

Or a midget!

 

[LondonJohn]

I thought that LondonJohn posted a quotation to the effect that while Erasmus supported Meredith, it was not exactly an Erasmus scholarship. I am not sure that the distinction is terribly important, but maybe it is of modest significance.

You're right. It wasn't an Erasmus programme, but she did receive Erasmus funding.

The reason is this: the Erasmus programme was set up with the explicit aim of fostering intra-Europe harmony and cross-cooperation, by giving students the opportunity to do exchange study programmes in other European countries than their home country. In order to get on an Erasmus programme, a student must apply and be approved. And the country of exchange study is pretty limitless: a physics undergraduate at Newcastle University, for example, could apply to do an Erasmus exchange at (say) Universities in Vienna, Seville, Oslo, Warsaw or Paris.

But Meredith was doing a languages degree, and most UK universities - including Leeds Uni - automatically include a year abroad in the country whose language is being studied. These programmes are separate from Erasmus programmes, but the students on them are eligible for Erasmus grants. Meredith did not in any sense "win" an Erasmus place to study in Italy: she was guaranteed a year's study in Italy as an integral part of her course. So one could say that every single modern languages student in probably the top 50 Universities in the UK is "special" enough to study abroad, since the year abroad is an integral part of the course.

When I was at uni, my then-girlfriend was studying a joint honours in Spanish and French. She spent her third year (of four) abroad, with six months in Lyon and six months in Barcelona. All of her coursemates spent a similar year abroad.

As you say though, it's not really super-significant - except when odd fellows such as Quennell start to spout nonsense along the lines of "Meredith was a super-bright student who won a prestigious Erasmus place to study in Italy".

 

[acbytesla]

You're right. It wasn't an Erasmus programme, but she did receive Erasmus funding.

The reason is this: the Erasmus programme was set up with the explicit aim of fostering intra-Europe harmony and cross-cooperation, by giving students the opportunity to do exchange study programmes in other European countries than their home country. In order to get on an Erasmus programme, a student must apply and be approved. And the country of exchange study is pretty limitless: a physics undergraduate at Newcastle University, for example, could apply to do an Erasmus exchange at (say) Universities in Vienna, Seville, Oslo, Warsaw or Paris.

But Meredith was doing a languages degree, and most UK universities - including Leeds Uni - automatically include a year abroad in the country whose language is being studied. These programmes are separate from Erasmus programmes, but the students on them are eligible for Erasmus grants. Meredith did not in any sense "win" an Erasmus place to study in Italy: she was guaranteed a year's study in Italy as an integral part of her course. So one could say that every single modern languages student in probably the top 50 Universities in the UK is "special" enough to study abroad, since the year abroad is an integral part of the course.

When I was at uni, my then-girlfriend was studying a joint honours in Spanish and French. She spent her third year (of four) abroad, with six months in Lyon and six months in Barcelona. All of her coursemates spent a similar year abroad.

As you say though, it's not really super-significant - except when odd fellows such as Quennell start to spout nonsense along the lines of "Meredith was a super-bright student who won a prestigious Erasmus place to study in Italy".

LJ,

It's a tragedy that Meredith was murdered. Amanda described Meredith as "smart, kind, caring, fun. Meredith liked to sleep in late, read thrillers on the patio in the afternoons, go out dancing with her girlfriends in the evenings. Everyday, she went to class, did her homework, and phoned her parents. She was interested in journalism, international relations, and cinema. She made friends easily and was conscientious toward other people’s feelings. She smiled and laughed often."

Whether or not she received the Erasmus fellowship as you said "is insignificant".

It really isn't a competition between the two. I'm sure Leeds is a good school and I know the U-Dub is as well. PQ is of course doing everything possible to demonize Amanda and deify Meredith. But Amanda isn't the devil and Meredith wasn't a saint.

And that said, the Chris Petersen era has begun.

 

[christianahannah]

You're right. It wasn't an Erasmus programme, but she did receive Erasmus funding.

The reason is this: the Erasmus programme was set up with the explicit aim of fostering intra-Europe harmony and cross-cooperation, by giving students the opportunity to do exchange study programmes in other European countries than their home country. In order to get on an Erasmus programme, a student must apply and be approved. And the country of exchange study is pretty limitless: a physics undergraduate at Newcastle University, for example, could apply to do an Erasmus exchange at (say) Universities in Vienna, Seville, Oslo, Warsaw or Paris.

But Meredith was doing a languages degree, and most UK universities - including Leeds Uni - automatically include a year abroad in the country whose language is being studied. These programmes are separate from Erasmus programmes, but the students on them are eligible for Erasmus grants. Meredith did not in any sense "win" an Erasmus place to study in Italy: she was guaranteed a year's study in Italy as an integral part of her course. So one could say that every single modern languages student in probably the top 50 Universities in the UK is "special" enough to study abroad, since the year abroad is an integral part of the course.

When I was at uni, my then-girlfriend was studying a joint honours in Spanish and French. She spent her third year (of four) abroad, with six months in Lyon and six months in Barcelona. All of her coursemates spent a similar year abroad.

As you say though, it's not really super-significant - except when odd fellows such as Quennell start to spout nonsense along the lines of "Meredith was a super-bright student who won a prestigious Erasmus place to study in Italy".

So would you say John Follain is mistaken or his wording is incorrect when he writes that Meredith won a university grant (does not specify Erasmus) and writes she was studying both European politics and Italian while at Leeds and would continue studying the same while in Perugia?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Y-haplotype

Mixtures are complicated. But doesn't the Y-haplotype test differentiate Raffaele's DNA from Meredith's DNA no matter how many alleles are shared?

Yes, I agree that Raffaele cannot be excluded as a contributor to the clasp on the basis of the Y-haplotype, and his profile is the dominant profile. However, the more interesting issue with respect to the clasp for me is that there are several other contributors.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Erasmus funding

So would you say John Follain is mistaken or his wording is incorrect when he writes that Meredith won a university grant (does not specify Erasmus) and writes she was studying both European politics and Italian while at Leeds and would continue studying the same while in Perugia?

LondonJohn previously provided a link to the Daily Mail:
"She was receiving funding for her stay in Italy from Erasmus, the European student exchange programme,.
'We have funded her but she was not on one of our programmes,' a spokesman said."

Of course, it is the Daily Mail, and it would be nice to have a more reliable source. However, LJs more recent comments are consistent with what the DM reported IIUC.

 

[RandyN]

As a Seattle lass, I have to point out that, according to the Times World University Rankings 2013-2014, the University of Washington is ranked 25 and Leeds is ranked 139. Actually, Leeds is tied at #139 with the Colorado School of Mines.

-Sonia, UW Class of 2012

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking

ETA: UW is a top university. All my professors were incredible. My fellow students were sharp and extremely well prepared and motivated.

Oh Sonia,

You crack me up! Did everyone wear bow ties too?

I think my school, Penn State has a quite high ranking, but only as a party school, although, as a older married student I never got to see that personally...work, study, study, work.............dull dull boi.....

 

[Planigale]

I surrender!

 

[acbytesla]

Oh Sonia,

You crack me up! Did everyone wear bow ties too?

I think my school, Penn State has a quite high ranking, but only as a party school, although, as a older married student I never got to see that personally...work, study, study, work.............dull dull boi.....

I don't buy that. And the only deity they ever studied at PSU was Joe Pa.

 

[Skind]

So would you say John Follain is mistaken or his wording is incorrect when he writes that Meredith won a university grant (does not specify Erasmus) and writes she was studying both European politics and Italian while at Leeds and would continue studying the same while in Perugia?

He may or may not be correct.

Universities hand out grants for various reasons which can depend on the particular school/college. The national Student Finance service can also offer grants.

Grants can be awarded for:

equipment, training and tuition related to a disability (including dyslexia) in addition to DSA
low household income
coming from a non-traditionally engaging background
random assignment (invariably local or course exclusive from a certain fund from either a company or individual)
having to study abroad as part of your course.

'Winning' a grant can be as hard as having to demonstrate why you should get the grant ahead of 150 other applicants , or can be as simple as being one of the first to apply before the fund runs out.

6 people in my cohort got a substantial (£600 is substantial when your fees are already fully paid by the NHS) grant because their numbers were drawn randomly.

A grant does not, by itself, confer or infer any level of brilliance. You need to know the specifics of the grant.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

art history

I surrender!

That's OK. Someone pointed out to me that Williams College has a graduate program in Art History, which contradicts something I wrote upthread. However, I also echo acbytesla and LondonJohn who point out how unimportant the whole ranking issue is, etc.