Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that show Jesus never existed

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Anyone who knows anything about that knows that it is garbage.

You can never ever present a non-apologetic writer who mentioned Jesus of Nazareth or Nazareth in the 1st century or early 2nd century

Philo, Josephus, Pliny the elder, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius are all 1st century or 2nd century writers and none of them mentioned Nazareth, or Jesus of Nazareth.

You don't have any idea what everyone knows.
 
Once again, who cares?
You are shouting at the choir.

If you don't care then why are you here? People here are arguing about the existence and non-existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

These forums and threads were set up so that ordinary people can discuss any matter which they care about.

Right now I am arguing that Jesus of Nazareth was a figure of mythology--the son of a Ghost and God Creator as described in hundreds of recovered manuscripts and Codices.

Some atheists are arguing that Jesus of Nazareth [God Creator] in the NT was really a human being but they have not a shred of corroborative evidence but barrels of logical fallacies.
 
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If you don't care then why are you here? People here are arguing about the existence and non-existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

These forums and threads were set up so that ordinary people can discuss any matter which they care about.

Right now I am arguing that Jesus of Nazareth was a figure of mythology--the son of a Ghost and God Creator as described in hundreds of recovered manuscripts and Codices.

Some atheists are arguing that Jesus of Nazareth [God Creator] in the NT was really a human being but they have not a shred of corroborative evidence but barrels of logical fallacies.
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So what?
How does that bother you?
If everyone agrees on the non-supernatural status of the guy, why all the effort to make -your- understanding -the- understanding?
You are making Jesus of Nazareth [God Creator], no else seems to biting the bait.
Some ethereal Jeshua Ben Joseph or some such may be the core of the stories, but so what?
It's all just story.
 
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So what?
How does that bother you?
If everyone agrees on the non-supernatural status of the guy, why all the effort to make -your- understanding -the- understanding?
You are making Jesus of Nazareth [God Creator], no else seems to biting the bait.
Some ethereal Jeshua Ben Joseph or some such may be the core of the stories, but so what?
It's all just story.

You are wasting your time talking to me because I really don't care what you write when you have no evidence to support your supposition.

I am dealing specifically with the evidence from antiquity. I care about the evidence of antiquity.

Julian's Against the Galileans
It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish, it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth.

The stories of Jesus are foolish and childish fiction fables.
 
Even if there was no supernatural myth in the NT about Jesus of Nazareth the character could still be a made up fiction character.

Your observation is not exactly unique. But I'd go farther. I think the supernatural, the implausible, the highly improbably and the historically incorrect is so thoroughly mixed into the Gospels that it is not possible to extract a single reliable fact about the HJ from them.
You seem to have forgotten that Jesus of Nazareth is not documented in any non-apologetic writing except for forgeries and fiction in Josephus.
I didn't forget that. I think it's probably true and even if some part of the Flavius Testimonium was written by Josephus, Josephus was not an eyewitness to the HJ or his buddies and as such iit would be at best weak evidence for an HJ. But since you seem to be a proponent of the notion that it is provable that an HJ didn't exist perhaps you could give us an account of the origin of Christianity whereby you can prove that there wasn't some obscure first century Palestinian that served as an inspiration for the people that created the religion.
 
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Your observation is not exactly unique. But I'd go farther. I think the supernatural, the implausible, the highly improbably and the historically incorrect is so thoroughly mixed into the Gospels that it is not possible to extract a single reliable fact about the HJ from them.

Well, that is precisely the problem with the HJ argument. It is unsustainable without any reliable data.


davefoc said:
... I think it's probably true and even if some part of the Flavius Testimonium was written by Josephus, Josephus was not an eyewitness to the HJ or his buddies and as such iit would be at best weak evidence for an HJ. But since you seem to be a proponent of the notion that it is provable that an HJ didn't exist perhaps you could give us an account of the origin of Christianity whereby you can prove that there wasn't some obscure first century Palestinian that served as an inspiration for the people that created the religion.

My argument is that Jesus was a figure of mythology and it is well supported by hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and apologetic sources of antiquity.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of writings claim Jesus was God Creator and born of a Ghost since at least the 2nd century.

I find extremely strange that all of a sudden atheists are using the bible to argue for an historical Jesus who was called God.

The God of Moses is fiction but God the Creator was really a human being?? That just doesn't make sense to me.

The Bible cannot be accepted as a source of history without external corroboration so why are atheists doing the unimaginable? Why do atheists have faith in the Bible without a shred of corroboration??
 
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My argument is that Jesus was a figure of mythology and it is well supported by hundreds of manuscripts, Codices and apologetic sources of antiquity.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of writings claim Jesus was God Creator and born of a Ghost since at least the 2nd century.

And you think somebody participating in this thread disagrees with this?
I find extremely strange that all of a sudden atheists are using the bible to argue for an historical Jesus who was called God.

The God of Moses is fiction but God the Creator was really a human being?? That just doesn't make sense to me.

The Bible cannot be accepted as a source of history without external corroboration so why are atheists doing the unimaginable? Why do atheists have faith in the Bible without a shred of corroboration??

Who are these atheists accepting the Bible as a source of history without external corroboration?

I guess there have been a few people in these threads over the years that think that some kind of reliable estimates about the nature of the HJ can be extracted from the Gospels and they base this on some probably wrong (IMHO) ideas about valid external corroboration or the general catch all that everybody that knows anything believes it so it must be true. Is anybody participating in this thread doing that in your view?

But as to your views on all this: You dispute that there is solid evidence for an HJ but you are not arguing that he didn't exist?
 
Your observation is not exactly unique. But I'd go farther. I think the supernatural, the implausible, the highly improbably and the historically incorrect is so thoroughly mixed into the Gospels that it is not possible to extract a single reliable fact about the HJ from them.
That us a good statement of what I call "weak" mythicism. Jesus can't be known because the true cannot be sorted out from the false, as there is not enough evidence. Fine. But here is a statement of positive or "strong" mythicism, from Richard Carrier. In discussing the subject of Jesus' existence it is absolutely essential to distinguish these two different versions of mythicism.
The most credible alternative theory of Christian origins is that Jesus began life as a celestial being, known only through private revelations, who was believed to have been crucified and resurrected in the lower heavens. The Gospels were the first attempts to place him in history as an earthly man, in parables and fables meant to illustrate Christian theology and ideals. Their picture of Jesus then became the most successful among the competing varieties of Christianity over the ensuing generations, and the eventually triumphant sects only created and preserved documents supporting their view, and very little supporting any other.
http://www.strangenotions.com/questioning-the-historicity-of-jesus/
 
I find extremely strange that all of a sudden atheists are using the bible to argue for an historical Jesus who was called God.

The God of Moses is fiction but God the Creator was really a human being?? That just doesn't make sense to me.

The reason it doesn't make sense to you is that you refuse to take 2 minutes to actually read and try to comprehend what we are saying and what exactly the position is. As far as I can tell, no one here arguing for a HJ is saying even remotely that there is some god who was a real human being, as you claim (and as I believe I may have already pointed out to you previously.) That is about as blatant a straman as you can make. In fact no one even seems to be arguing that Jesus was necessarily a real historical figure. The argument is that it's quite possible and maybe even likely (but nowhere near definitive) that there was an individual who led some sort of Jewish cult, likely an apocalyptic one, and was presumably killed by the Romans for whatever reason. And from what we have read from the various gospels and writings about him, there was a wide range of different views of him after his death that gradually changed over time. That is the position, and it's about as clear as I can make it. I hate to sound like an ass, but maybe you should read that over a few times and think about it, considering that the exact same thing has been said in a number of different ways throughout the thread.

The Bible cannot be accepted as a source of history without external corroboration so why are atheists doing the unimaginable? Why do atheists have faith in the Bible without a shred of corroboration??

They don't. You just haven't been listening.
 
That us a good statement of what I call "weak" mythicism. Jesus can't be known because the true cannot be sorted out from the false, as there is not enough evidence. Fine. But here is a statement of positive or "strong" mythicism, from Richard Carrier. In discussing the subject of Jesus' existence it is absolutely essential to distinguish these two different versions of mythicism. http://www.strangenotions.com/questioning-the-historicity-of-jesus/

Richard Carrier is a smart guy that writes very well. His arguments about the unreliability of the sources are very strong and he manages to support them with the work of a lot of other very smart people.

I've spent time trying to figure out exactly what the evidence for his more positive statements on the non existence of an HJ is and it seemed to me that his claims couldn't be supported reliably. But I didn't buy his book and maybe with more work and more following up on his references I wouldn't feel like that.

I think that the self interest bias that leads the authors that write about Jesus is the same one that might cause a strong mythicist to develop theories for which the evidence is very shaky. Nobody buys books about the unknowable HJ. They buy books about the HJ or they buy books about why he didn't exist. The market for a we just don't friggin know book is pretty small I suspect.
 
Richard Carrier is a smart guy that writes very well. His arguments about the unreliability of the sources are very strong and he manages to support them with the work of a lot of other very smart people.

I've spent time trying to figure out exactly what the evidence for his more positive statements on the non existence of an HJ is and it seemed to me that his claims couldn't be supported reliably. But I didn't buy his book and maybe with more work and more following up on his references I wouldn't feel like that.

I think that the self interest bias that leads the authors that write about Jesus is the same one that might cause a strong mythicist to develop theories for which the evidence is very shaky. Nobody buys books about the unknowable HJ. They buy books about the HJ or they buy books about why he didn't exist. The market for a we just don't friggin know book is pretty small I suspect.

Absolutely. there's money in HJ books if they are sensational enough.

Have you seen this blog piece by Carrier?:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4733

Philosopher (and FtB alum) Dan Fincke has written a good, concise piece on why atheists need to don a little more sense and humility when claiming Jesus didn’t exist. In his article On Atheists Attempting to Disprove the Existence of the Historical Jesus, Fincke makes a sound case for two basic points: (1) amateurs should not be voicing certitude in a matter still being debated by experts (historicity agnosticism is far more defensible and makes far more sense for amateurs on the sidelines) and (2) criticizing Christianity with a lead of “Jesus didn’t even exist” is strategically ill conceived–it’s bad strategy on many levels, it only makes atheists look illogical, and (counter-intuitively) it can actually make Christians more certain of their faith.

I think his piece is a must-read. I’ll only briefly comment on some of its key arguments here.

I quite agree with (1) and (2). I’ve made both points myself over the years. But Fincke lays out the reasoning well. He concludes, for example, that until “secular historians…at least become widely divided over” the matter of historicity (emphasis on widely and the minimal benchmark of divided), atheists who are not themselves experts in the field should not be “advocating for one side or the other routinely and prominently.” (There is a growing division, BTW, but it’s not yet wide…although I know other historians who privately confess they are willing to concede agnosticism about historicity but who won’t admit it in public, so the division is wider than we know–but until more go public, we can’t know how wide.) Meanwhile, Fincke explains, “we should either be agnostic on the issue,” as Fincke is, or “defer to historical consensus,” or, “if we really find [e.g.] Carrier’s arguments compelling” then we should “still be cautious and qualified in our declarations, acknowledging that we are agreeing with a minority view (and one that even Carrier seems far from certain about).”
Amen.

In aid of that last parenthetical, I can announce one spoiler: in my book On the Historicity of Jesus (at the publisher now and expected this February, if their production timeline goes to plan) I conclude that, using probability estimates as far against my conclusion as are at all reasonably possible (probabilities I believe are wildly too generous), there could be as much as a 1 in 3 chance that Jesus existed. When using what I think are more realistic estimates of the requisite probabilities (estimates I believe are closer to the truth), those chances drop to around 1 in 12,000.

Note that the first estimate leaves a respectable probability that Jesus existed–it’s merely more likely that he didn’t, not anywhere near certain. And that may well be correct, if my biases are strong and thus my a fortiori estimates (estimates against myself) more accurate. But even if we embrace the other end of my margin of error, we are still not looking at certainty. 1 in 12,000 sounds like certainty, but it’s actually nowhere near. Just ask yourself: would you get into a car that had a 1 in 12,000 chance of exploding right then? If your answer is yes, then you are bad at math.
 
Thanks, Brainache. Have you noticed the frequency with which Carrier, when being interviewed, finds it necessary to give precise publication details of his forthcoming books?
 
Thanks, Brainache. Have you noticed the frequency with which Carrier, when being interviewed, finds it necessary to give precise publication details of his forthcoming books?

I find him rather annoying personally. He is just a bit too cocky. In one video I've seen he said something like: "Don't listen to anyone else, I'm the only one who knows anything..."

He has a very high opinion of himself. I will be very interested to see the response to his book (available in all good bookstores next year maybe), and his reaction to the critics.
 
You can never ever present a non-apologetic writer who mentioned Jesus of Nazareth or Nazareth in the 1st century or early 2nd century
Why on earth would I have even the slightest desire to expend such research effort on such a fool's errand?

Oh, and you failed to distinguish between "of Nazareth" and "the Nazarene" in your perpetual fulmination.
 
I find him rather annoying personally. He is just a bit too cocky. In one video I've seen he said something like: "Don't listen to anyone else, I'm the only one who knows anything..."

He has a very high opinion of himself. I will be very interested to see the response to his book (available in all good bookstores next year maybe), and his reaction to the critics.

I'm gonna have to second that. Even when I agree with what he may say, he is irritating enough for me to disagree just to spite him. The guy is simply cursed with a grating personality.
 
That's what happens where I drink too. We must go to the same pubs. Except that in mine it's sometimes more than sensibilities that get "lacerated".

Alas, no pubbing.
The laceration, dejection and shame was too great to bear and most of us simply fled the scene of the crime and went home.


I would be honoured.
Thanks. It's been a while since I've used a sig.



Another HJ thread. ...Almost the only possibly reliable evidence for the existence an HJ are Paul's writings, but nobody can prove when they were written, by whom they were written and whether the author was sufficiently honest and informed to have at least some facts buried within them that would prove the existence of an HJ.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I think, Paul's writings are just enough evidence to support a guess that an HJ existed, but without any external corroboration that can never be more than a guess. Find an historian that refers to Paul, find letters from Paul's correspondents or find some sort of external corroboration for Paul and then you might have something that could provide credibility to Paul's story. Without that all that is possible is a guess. And if your guess is that an HJ didn't exist, I think you might be right . If you think you can know that an HJ didn't exist I think you are wrong.

Hi, davefoc.
I completely agree with you about Paul's writings being just enough to support a guess an HJ existed.

As to what kind of person this might have been, I'll go with I Ratant

...That is a handy guide to looking back into the murk of history, where the people were the same; same goals, same ideas, same ways to make a living... and pretty much conclude that all religions have a very secular origin.
Covered over with faith and belief, but it's still one charismatic guy with a mental issue and a gift of gab hornswoggling the immediate crowds. And the other swifties that latch on to the creator, and spread the "word".

I'd also put emphasis on the word "hornswoggling".
 
davefoc

I think the supernatural, the implausible, the highly improbably and the historically incorrect is so thoroughly mixed into the Gospels that it is not possible to extract a single reliable fact about the HJ from them.
And so we may thank godlessness that that isn't the task of evidentiary reasoning. The evidence is what we have observed, whole and entire. ("There's a pile of codices over there"). At most, we might focus things a bit when there are utter irrelevancies in the pile (So, we select out the "Chrestus" passages, and pass over the bits about Cicero's involuntary suicide.)

With respect to each hypothesis and the entire relevant corpus of what we have observed, we estimate "How plausible is it that we would have this evidence assuming that this hypothesis was true - whether we think that hypothesis is true or not, promising or not, or hold any other attitude, except that the hypothesis is certainly true or certainly false.

There is no "extracting" step. The relevant evidence is what it is, whole and entire. If all goes well, then the evidence will be estimated to favor some hypotheses relative to others, but estimated differently by different people. If we like, we may asbtract generalizations about what many of the favored hypotheses have in common. For example, some people are very taken with the idea that Jesus was a Zealot or Zealot fellow traveler. There's no part of the corpus that even directly discusses that, but rather the corpus favors the hypotheses with that feature relative to other hypotheses without it (in some people's estimation, and not so much in others').

No good can come from extracting from evidence rather than abstracting from hypotheses. There begins the fantasy that a historical Jesus is arrived at by "stripping away the supernatural elements." No, we are not stripping a ship's hull of its barnacles. We want to know where the ship came from, the barnacles aren't from the same place, but they are evidence of where the ship has been. So, we keep the barnacles just where they are, and see how close we can get to reconstructing the progress of the voyage. Who knows? We just might be able to estimate 60-40 that it was launched from one continent rather than any of the other continents.

not davefoc

Who cares? Anybody who's participating in a discussion of it. Don't care? Well, there are about as many bigfoot threads as HJ threads here at JREF... right this way, Mr Firstnighter.
 
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eight bits wrote:

No good can come from extracting from evidence rather than abstracting from hypotheses. There begins the fantasy that a historical Jesus is arrived at by "stripping away the supernatural elements." No, we are not stripping a ship's hull of its barnacles. We want to know where the ship came from, the barnacles aren't from the same place, but they are evidence of where the ship has been. So, we keep the barnacles just where they are, and see how close we can get to reconstructing the progress of the voyage. Who knows? We just might be able to estimate 60-40 that it was launched from one continent rather than any of the other continents.

In fact, I think it was GDon who made the interesting point that the miracles attributed to Jesus are actually weak evidence for HJ, since they are exactly what we would expect to be attributed to a Jewish charismatic preacher of the time. I think this is part of the arguments advanced by Geza Vermes, that Jesus fits right in with 1st century Jewish culture, where healing, exorcism, prophetic statements, denunciation, and so on, were par for the course for a charismatic hasid.

I'm not sure about this argument, although I admire its ingenuity. You could also argue that if a celestial (non-human) Jesus was being touted in the first century, he would also be given such powers!
 
Craigb
I have been unable to find in the Bible where a woman says to Jesus..... But you are Greek, it is said that the son of God comes from the Galilee area.
I can only think I dreamt it or my brain tricked me into wanting to see it. I have reread the four gosples and don't think it would be in any other of the books. Sorry
 
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