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Is Atheism based on Logic or Faith?

mikeb768 said:
Getting back to your argument for "Infinite Regression". I am not the one making an exception for God. God it telling us in the Quran that he operates out side of this concept or box which we have created.
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You defined the "law" and you defined the exception. The least you can do is own your own argument. The exception you are making violates the "law" as you have defined it and thus makes your "law" invalid. By allowing for an uncaused cause you, not anyone else, is violating the very "law" that you are using as proof.

I note that you noted that you used a Christian apologist making the same argument for his god but you didn't convert to Christianity. Which means you find this argument uncompelling too. This is likely because it so violates the rules of the fictional "law" that anything could be offered as that cause. And if it is anything, then it might as well be nothing given its performance since.
 
Coming back to this one...
mikeb768 said:
We don't know where God came from? Although we do know the attributes of God which he has chosen to reveal to us.

Say, "He is God, [who is] One,
God, the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
[Quran 112:1-4]
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So these attributes are... a single unique individual who doesn't have children and wasn't born?

This doesn't really tell us anything about him. This description could just as easily apply to the Flying Spaghetti monster, AstroBoy or Frankenstein's Monster.
 
Nay_Sayer said:
I'll bite: (A)

also

Surah 23:14 makes the claim that human beings are formed from a clot of blood. Surah 18:86 claims that the sun sets in a spring of murky water.

[source] http://www.gotquestions.org/errors-Q...#ixzz2mvD9Nbcl
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mikeb768 said:
This book is the work of:
A) A man.B) Many men.
C) Some intelligent beings other than men.
D) The book is sincere to its claims and authorship, thus being from God.
E) The book does not exist, logically speaking of course.
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So starting from the top, you would accept that a man who was understood as never having been taught to read and write, somehow managed to recite what is widely regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language (by both Arabs and non Arabs).

Not only was he able to come up with "the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language", but he did this on his first attempt. During the period of 23 years when the Quran was being revealed the Quran was only memorized, and spoken, and not available in written form.

The Quran once revealed (spoken) to the people, it could not be retracted. This means that he had only one attempt to get it right, no do overs.

It has recently been discovered that this Recital (Quran), which the prophet spoke is interwoven with a number of linguistic miracles. Here are some:
-"A Middle Nation" found in the center of the longest verse, this verse being revealed over a prolonged period of time.
-The Perfect Symmetry of the Book God swears by "the Even and the Odd", #.
-The Occurrence of the Number 19 The Quran is interwoven with the Number "19"

These are just some of the proofs which continue to pop up regarding the miracle of the Quran. Many of the things now being discovered of this nature, were discovered with the aid of computers.


Regarding [Quran 23:14] the thing that is often in dispute is the use of the Arabic word "Alaqah", this video may help to shed some light on the subject. Link

[Quran 18:86] is not meant to be taken literally.
85] One (such) way he followed,
86] Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

If you keep reading the surah, it later states the following:
89] Then followed he (another) way,
90] Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

The people who construct these extremely weak arguments know full well that they do not hold weight. But they also know that most people are just to lazy to read, which allows these things to remain in circulation. May God guide all of those who are sincere, both in this life and the next, Peace.
 
Nay_Sayer said:
Where have I heard the "It's a metaphor" excuse before....

You also had me chuckling at the finest piece of literature bit.

There is no next life, Enjoy and cherish this one while you can and don't waste it with fairy tales.
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OK here is a different approach. Have you ever met someone who is Jewish? As in someone who celebrates the Jewish Passover?
 
mikeb768 said:
So starting from the top, you would accept that a man who was understood as never having been taught to read and write, somehow managed to recite what is widely regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language (by both Arabs and non Arabs).
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Can you support this claim by quoting some unbiased experts in Arabic literature who agree that the Quran actually is the "finest piece of literature in the Arabic language"?

Personally, I suspect that this claim is probably akin to the one about the New Testament being hailed as "The Greatest Story Ever Told"... in other words, religion-inspired hyperbole.

mikeb768 said:
Not only was he able to come up with "the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language", but he did this on his first attempt.
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How do you know that there weren't any previous attempts that were never recorded?

mikeb768 said:
During the period of 23 years when the Quran was being revealed the Quran was only memorized, and spoken, and not available in written form.
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Twenty-three years of coming up with verse/speeches that are refined and practiced in private until perfected before being recited before people who would later write them down and eventually compile them into a single volume seems a pretty plausible endeavor to me without needing to invoke divine intervention.

mikeb768 said:
The Quran once revealed (spoken) to the people, it could not be retracted. This means that he had only one attempt to get it right, no do overs.
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But how many times did he practice these things before publicly "revealing" them? How many of the people writing them down at a later time improved upon and embellished his words as they did so?

mikeb768 said:
It has recently been discovered that this Recital (Quran), which the prophet spoke is interwoven with a number of linguistic miracles. Here are some:

[SNIP]

These are just some of the proofs which continue to pop up regarding the miracle of the Quran. Many of the things now being discovered of this nature, were discovered with the aid of computers.
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So just some meaningless Da Vinci Code style nonsense, then?

ETA: Here's something interesting from that same Wikipedia article you linked to in your post.
Orthodox Muslims believe that the Quran is the unchanging Word of God. However, some non-Islamic scholars believe differently. For example, "Dr. Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten."[32] Based on his analysis of Sana'a manuscript, Puin claims that the Quran contains stories that were written before prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten. His findings were controversial—and offensive enough to Muslims that the authorities who hold the manuscript denied Puin further access to them.
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mikeb768 said:
Only people who have not bothered to spend any time reading any of the available religious text would imagine such to be true.

There is only One God. Muslims accept all of the messengers of God. They all brought the same message to the people "Worship God".

Jews accept: Adam, Noah, Lot, Moses, David, Abraham, Joseph, (Rejecting Jesus, and Muhammad)
Christians accept: Adam, Noah, Lot, Moses, David, Abraham, Joseph, Jesus (elevating Jesus to the position of God), (Rejecting Muhammad)
Muslims accept: Adam, Noah, Lot, Moses, David, Abraham, Joseph, Jesus (as a righteous messenger of God), and Muhammad

So we can easily simplify this equation by saying that all three faiths believe in the God of Abraham (Often termed the Abrahamic faiths), and the tenants of Moses.

Not only this but the Quran actually clears up any remaining confusion with the following verse, [Quran 2:62] "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
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Was Jesus Christ the Son of God?
 
patchbunny said:
Any why just one? If god can come from nothing why not 2? 20? 20,000?
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[Quran 21:22] "If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides God, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to God, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!"

Some have at times asked the question as to why I choose to use the word God, in the place of Allah. This is to keep things simple as possible. Many people are easily thrown off by the use of Arabic words such as "Allah". Even though the word Allah actually translates to "The God" in English (as opposed to "a god"). Who is Allah?
 
mikeb768 said:
So do you believe the Jewish people to have made this up this whole story of the Jewish exodus from Egypt? Or do you think of it as an actual event in history?
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What about Hinduism, Mormonism, Sikhism etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...
 
mikeb768 said:
So starting from the top, you would accept that a man who was understood as never having been taught to read and write, somehow managed to recite what is widely regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language (by both Arabs and non Arabs).
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No, I wouldn't accept it without independent evidence, which you have not provided.

<snip snip snip>

Continually quoting the Quran is unimpressive, and equates to circular reasoning.

Only speaking for myself, but my lack of belief in your god (or any god) is based on logic not faith.

RayG
 
mikeb768 said:
So starting from the top, you would accept that a man who was understood as never having been taught to read and write, somehow managed to recite what is widely regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language (by both Arabs and non Arabs).
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Nobody said that Mohammed wrote it down.

This style of debate is ridiculous. Your very first post in this thread contains a straw man argument (the last paragraph). There is so much straw in your arguments you best not light a match.

Can I point you to a good web site on logical fallacies? You don't seem to have any experience with spotting them.
 
mikeb768 said:
OK here is a different approach. Have you ever met someone who is Jewish? As in someone who celebrates the Jewish Passover?
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I've met plenty of Jews. I don't know whether they celebrate Passover or not. the two are not synonyms.

Dog only knows where you're going with this approach.
 
mikeb768 said:
patchbunny said:
Any why just one? If god can come from nothing why not 2? 20? 20,000?
Click to expand...

[Quran 21:22] "If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides God, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to God, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!"
Click to expand...

I don't see how this answers the question. It's just a description of what the consequences would be if there were more than one.

mikeb768 said:
Some have at times asked the question as to why I choose to use the word God, in the place of Allah. This is to keep things simple as possible. Many people are easily thrown off by the use of Arabic words such as "Allah". Even though the word Allah actually translates to "The God" in English (as opposed to "a god"). Who is Allah?
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I don't think anyone here was confused by your use of the word God. The meaning of "Allah" is common knowledge.
 
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