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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Since you are dissecting the true meaning of words...

It's 1.28. Buona notte.

As I've followed this murder case for years, since it happened,
I've wondered if words don't often get miss pro-nounced when translated from Italian to English.

Case in point:
I got this quote from a download of Rudy Guede's German Prison Diary from PMF:
Rudy Guede writes this:

Rudy Guede said:
He tried to attack me but I
took a chair to protect myself, being stronger than him.
Although I had a chair and he had a weapon, he exited
through the front door telling me "black man found,
guilty man found,"
he yelled.



But just a moment ago,
I found this:
"Trovato negro, trovato colpevole; andiamo"
Hmmmm...

Heya Vibio,
When you wake up, can you translate this for me?
Does it really mean:
"Found black, found guilty; let's go?

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher

Let's go?


Who was with this person when he said outloud to Rudy Guede:
"Let's go"?
 
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I don't know if this is strange or not. Again: in 2007 most US jurisdictions did not require recording interrogations. But I just somehow don't think that meant no tapped phones, taped prison conversations ecc.

Also, I don't know if there is a difference between police questioning and what that might legally fall under as opposed to the others.

Whether or not it's strange, it is a fact that they systematically recorded a great deal of material that proved to be irrelevant, but they did not record the one interview that is most important to their case.

They also seem to have lost the bugged recordings of Amanda and Raffaele's cell phone conversations, and they destroyed the contents of a number of computer hard drives.

This fact pattern does not raise eyebrows in the Italian court system, and it gets a free pass with the online cult. Outside of those bubbles, it is perceived as a strong reason to doubt the credibility of the investigation. Hence the tone of Griffin's interview with Mignini. No PR machine had to hand him a script. He could see the obvious problem.
 
Not at all , they called Sollecito in specifically to question him about his lack of phone data and to show him the missed call from Papa. He said they slept it but the data showed he was up before 6 . So he withdraws Amanda's alibi . They then turn their attention to Amanda and her phone.

Briars they had already announced that were interviewing all her acquaintances and one assumes gathering and reviewing phone records. It's not like a massive job to get the logs from the phone companies and looking at logs from that evening would be first on the list.

The PGP are always accusing the PIP of making excuses for Amanda and Raf but it seems to me that the PGP never stop excusing bad, incompetent and possibly illegal acts by the PLE.

Are you suggesting that 3 days later they didn't have Amanda's phone records? They had Raf's.

They knew she worked for PL and they knew he had texted her just before the murder.
 
Stolen Children

Weirdly I was just looking at the IMDB page for the bicycle movie today. I decided to download "Io Non Ho Paura" instead, but I'll have to put the other on my 'To Watch' list.
(slightly off-topic banter) "Stolen Children" is a good neorealist film, and it even features a young Carabinieri officer as the lead character.
 
Thanks very much for that link. I echo your recommendation - everybody should listen to this if they can. It is truly educational.

Why should anybody care as this show must have been produced and promoted by Marriott just to help Amanda - just disgusting. :p
 
I don't know if this is strange or not. Again: in 2007 most US jurisdictions did not require recording interrogations. But I just somehow don't think that meant no tapped phones, taped prison conversations ecc.

I'm not referring to whether they were required but the curiousity that it wasn't done in the context of everything else taped there and elsewhere and that the story for why that is keeps changing. We have Napoleoni saying she was taken by surprise/forgot, Mignini that they were too busy arranging the arrest of Patrick/no money in the budget, and there were charges that directly stemmed from that interrogation, namely the two calunnia charges on Amanda (Patrick's and the police) as well as peripherally the one against Amanda's parents.

By claiming not to have taped those interviews, utterly inexplicable in the face of everything else they taped that was adduced in court as evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, they have managed to mine three charges against Amanda for witness statements after they were either denied lawyers (Raffaele) or threatened if they tried to get one (Amanda) when the latter could barely speak Italian at that juncture.

Do you really think they didn't tape anything that night? Seven hours worth? Why wouldn't they and why did they lie about it and withold that evidence whilst filing additional charges on them?


Also, I don't know if there is a difference between police questioning and what that might legally fall under as opposed to the others.

Wouldn't a competent police force ensure that the evidence gathered in their own headquarters be of the highest quality? Whether the law in various US jurisdictions required it or not, numerous recordings of interviews/interrogations have been posted in these threads from US police forces, and were anyone to try to contend that the police said one thing and the suspect said another a tape would invaribly be produced to settle the question and woe to him who thinks because the law didn't require it that it wasn't being done! At least in any city the size of Perugia.
 
Thanks very much for that link. I echo your recommendation - everybody should listen to this if they can. It is truly educational.

Thanks. I'm a long time listener to This American Life, so I'd heard the program when they aired it. Later I saw that Amanda put a link up on her website. I can only imagine how it is to be her, hearing these stories.

That officer who faced up to what he'd done restores my faith in humanity a little. :)
 
I'm not referring to whether they were required but the curiousity that it wasn't done in the context of everything else taped there and elsewhere and that the story for why that is keeps changing. We have Napoleoni saying she was taken by surprise/forgot, Mignini that they were too busy arranging the arrest of Patrick/no money in the budget, and there were charges that directly stemmed from that interrogation, namely the two calunnia charges on Amanda (Patrick's and the police) as well as peripherally the one against Amanda's parents.

By claiming not to have taped those interviews, utterly inexplicable in the face of everything else they taped that was adduced in court as evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, they have managed to mine three charges against Amanda for witness statements after they were either denied lawyers (Raffaele) or threatened if they tried to get one (Amanda) when the latter could barely speak Italian at that juncture.

Do you really think they didn't tape anything that night? Seven hours worth? Why wouldn't they and why did they lie about it and withold that evidence whilst filing additional charges on them?




Wouldn't a competent police force ensure that the evidence gathered in their own headquarters be of the highest quality? Whether the law in various US jurisdictions required it or not, numerous recordings of interviews/interrogations have been posted in these threads from US police forces, and were anyone to try to contend that the police said one thing and the suspect said another a tape would invaribly be produced to settle the question and woe to him who thinks because the law didn't require it that it wasn't being done! At least in any city the size of Perugia.


And I might add that this was by some measure the highest-profile investigation in the recent history of the Perugia State Police. And that the interviews in question were being conducted in a new regional police HQ, which - beyond a shadow of a doubt - had the requisite recording equipment readily available. And that the interviews were being conducted at a time of night when it is vanishingly unlikely that there would have been any volume pressure on either officers, rooms or equipment.

As you, I and others have pointed out several times before, recordings of interviews serve to protect BOTH the police and the interviewee. If the police had only the most honourable intentions regarding that night's interviews, then logically they should have been clamouring to record them! After all, what would be the potential downside to the police of not doing so? It would have required minimal extra investment of time, manpower or money, and could serve to protect the police against any possible accusations of malpractice down the line.

So this raises a potentially-interesting point: is it possible to argue that the police might either have a) destroyed any tape of the interviews that might have existed, in order to destroy evidence of police malpractice (this has been argued before of course); or b) deliberately chosen not to record the interviews, in the prior knowledge that it would make life easier for the police not to have such recordings in evidence given the sorts of interviews they intended on conducting that night.....?
 
I don't think he is lying. I think over the months being asked by the cub reporter about what he might have seen he in his heroin fog bagan to "remember" things. I doubt he ever actually saw anything like what he testified to but believed it, that's why he was so convincing to the court.



See above.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if those fantasies were impelled to him by that reporter (and perhaps others) and he believed it was true--eventually. My suspicion is the man was mentally ill.

The testimony I've pasted here clearly says that he saw them when he left just before midnight, but that just doesn't work for the prosecution. Massei reasoned that since the buses normally leave by 11 that he left earlier than he recalled and set the time just after 11. But there were no buses so if one wants to believe his testimony then we should go back to his just before midnight.

If there's no buses, there's no reason to believe what he claims he saw has anything to do with the murder, his account of what he 'saw' includes those buses as an integral part of what he 'witnessed.' He 'saw' the two youngsters the night he saw the buses.

It is kinda funny the prosecution tried to use something that had to be true (him thinking that was the day before the 'Martians' were there) to 'date' it instead of the things he said he witnessed at the same time and used as a critical part of 'corroborating' his story!

I would suggest that defense needs to challenge his entire testimony and have it disregarded. But they should also say that if his obviously dubious testimony is to believed at all then the times he gave must be respected and the court can't adjust them to fit what they need for their scenario.

It has been established that the disco buses weren't running so any assumption based on their schedule must be disallowed. If the court wishes to believe that he saw them, then they must have them in the plaza from 9:30 to just before midnight.

Then review all the reasons his testimony doesn't pass muster but show his testimony gives them an alibi if believed.

Ah, OK, I get it now. It just happens that Hellmann called in those bus service managers and it amounts to the same time anyway: the last bus left from 11:30-midnight and ten minutes afterward would amount to 'just before midnight' regardless.

Hellmann Report said:
...(the departure times of the buses were found to be: between 11:00 pm and 11:30 pm, witness Brughini in the hearing of 3.26.1011; between 11:15 pm and 11:30 pm, witness Pucciarini in the hearing of 3.12.2011; between 11:30 pm and midnight, witnesses Bevilacqua and Ini Gaetano in the hearing of 3.12.2011, particularly credible as they are owners [titolari] of the bus companies [linee di autobus] that provide the shuttle bus services for the discotheques). Therefore there is no doubt that – according to Curatolo’s testimony – he saw the two youths at least until after 11:30 pm.
 
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And I might add that this was by some measure the highest-profile investigation in the recent history of the Perugia State Police. And that the interviews in question were being conducted in a new regional police HQ, which - beyond a shadow of a doubt - had the requisite recording equipment readily available. And that the interviews were being conducted at a time of night when it is vanishingly unlikely that there would have been any volume pressure on either officers, rooms or equipment.

As you, I and others have pointed out several times before, recordings of interviews serve to protect BOTH the police and the interviewee. If the police had only the most honourable intentions regarding that night's interviews, then logically they should have been clamouring to record them! After all, what would be the potential downside to the police of not doing so? It would have required minimal extra investment of time, manpower or money, and could serve to protect the police against any possible accusations of malpractice down the line.

So this raises a potentially-interesting point: is it possible to argue that the police might either have a) destroyed any tape of the interviews that might have existed, in order to destroy evidence of police malpractice (this has been argued before of course); or b) deliberately chosen not to record the interviews, in the prior knowledge that it would make life easier for the police not to have such recordings in evidence given the sorts of interviews they intended on conducting that night.....?

The trouble is that what is at stake here is only the admissibility of any statements produced. As it sits (Mignini's slipping the statments in anyway notwithstanding, because of the simultaneous calunnia) once arrested the fact of no recording or transcription places the ledger at 0 (zero), not into negative territory as innocenters would prefer.

Indeed it is possible to argue both a) and b) above. But it is an argument out of deliberate silence.

Still, once Lumumba had an iron clad alibi and was released, and once Rudy came on to the scene, the real headscratcher is why they continued with Knox and Sollecito. This has been asked many times. There was literally no evidence against Knox, and Raffaele's shoe-rings were disappearing!

To this day, the only real thing guilters can offer is that Knox is guilty because she "lied about Lumumba" a "lie" that is not provable, really, because of what you're talking about (re: mandatory taping on interrogations!) and that Raffaele is guilty because, well.... because Knox is guilty.

That's really the sum total of the case.

Vibio wants to argue that one can be convicted without leaving forensics at the scene. This begs a whole host of questions - namely, that one had better have an iron clad motive against the convicted, something that even Crini does not have - and Massei did not have. (One wonders if Vibio argues this way with and corrects Harry Rag/The Machine who argues mixed blood and an abundant amount of DNA found on the knife and on the clasp!)

Briars argues the meaning of "burglary" and whether or not this implies "theft".

Machiavelli argues that Guede was Knox's pimp, and that Knox could choose not to sleep and suffer no ill effects for the choice. Machiavelli is also not terribly sure if Jan 15, 2014, is Mignin's own abuse of office trial, or if it is only the preliminary.

It's hard to put all these guilter theories into a coherent whole - you wouldn't think it has been six years, and/or that the new prosecutor, Crini, is not arguing any of these things.

Crini is not arguing mixed blood, he's not arguind Knox had no sleep deprivation, he's not arguing motive, he IS arguing about pooh in the toile, he's not arguing that "burglary" is not necessarily "theft", and he's not arguing that lack of forensics means that they still could have done the thing.

Crini is arguing that the kitchen knife is a match for the bedsheet outline, something (if you can believe it) that Mignini himself was too embarrassed to argue.... arguing a two-knife theory instead!!!! You have to admit, it says something that Crini argues something that Mignini simply has too many scruples to try to get away with.

Even Machiavelli now is a convert to the single knife, the outline matches theory. (You wouldn't think it's been 6 years!)
 
Not at all , they called Sollecito in specifically to question him about his lack of phone data and to show him the missed call from Papa. He said they slept it but the data showed he was up before 6 . So he withdraws Amanda's alibi . They then turn their attention to Amanda and her phone.


Again, you need to show exactly what was said, how it was evidenced and the circumstances at the time. Just giving your interpretation of the events in insufficient. You are just throwing crap at the wall and hoping to get something to stick. When you are going to bring up a point, you should at least do your homework first.
 
Do you really think they didn't tape anything that night? Seven hours worth? Why wouldn't they and why did they lie about it and withold that evidence whilst filing additional charges on them?

What is known about the taping systems in the Perugia police headquarters?

The headquarters is a very modern building with modern systems, according to Paul Collino, a retired Chicago detective who was a consultant to CBS and who spoke with various police detectives involved in the case and who visited Perugia police headquarters.

I understand that there is audio/video recording equipment built into the interrogation rooms in which Amanda and Raffaele were placed and also in hallway waiting areas. Giobbi referred to being in the "control room" listening to Amanda's screams as she was interrogated, so we know he was there. Mignini referred to being there, too, late in her interrogation watching Amanda's body language on video camera. So these are the guys watching the video screens at the control panel who either forgot or for budget reasons did not press the "record" button?

Who else was probably there? The police chief?
 
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Whether or not it's strange, it is a fact that they systematically recorded a great deal of material that proved to be irrelevant, but they did not record the one interview that is most important to their case.

They also seem to have lost the bugged recordings of Amanda and Raffaele's cell phone conversations, and they destroyed the contents of a number of computer hard drives.

This fact pattern does not raise eyebrows in the Italian court system, and it gets a free pass with the online cult. Outside of those bubbles, it is perceived as a strong reason to doubt the credibility of the investigation. Hence the tone of Griffin's interview with Mignini. No PR machine had to hand him a script. He could see the obvious problem.

Three other elements conveniently "lost," that is, unable to be retested:

  • Meredith's DNA on the knife
  • the bra clasp
  • Curatolo
 
Why the cookie jar broke

Mark Olshaker wrote, "When the story keeps changing, it’s a good bet it isn’t true, whether that story is an explanation for how the cookie jar happened to fall off the kitchen counter or why the United States went into Iraq. And it’s a even better bet that the teller of the story is growing increasingly desperate."
 
Crime scene photos and the autopsy report show what he did. She was standing next to her bed when he attacked her, holding her from behind with a knife in his right hand. He stabbed her in the neck, and she tried to break free. A brief struggle took place. It ended when he forced her to her knees and cut her throat. Then he dragged her into the middle of the room, ripped her clothes off, and raped her as she lay dying.

The cops hadn't figured any of that out by Nov. 6, 2007, when they convened their press conference. They told a completely different story, and then they went on a mad scramble for "evidence" to prop it up.

And yet the police, prosecutor, and 4 courts fail to analyze the putative sperm stain on the pillow found under the victim's hips??? What is the reason for that? Are they afraid it will be Guede's? Kokoman's? Sollecito's? Curatolo's? Filomena's boyfriend's? Any one of the four guys who live downstairs?
 
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Mark Olshaker wrote, "When the story keeps changing, it’s a good bet it isn’t true, whether that story is an explanation for how the cookie jar happened to fall off the kitchen counter or why the United States went into Iraq. And it’s a even better bet that the teller of the story is growing increasingly desperate."

If this is true, Crini's case really is in the toilet.

And considering that this horrible murder is now 6 years and one month old, AK and RS have had the same story for the last six years and it was the story they went into interrogation with.

And...... it survived the 2009 conviction when Raffaele had every reason to throw Knox under a bus. And he didn't.
 
Not at all , they called Sollecito in specifically to question him about his lack of phone data and to show him the missed call from Papa. He said they slept it but the data showed he was up before 6 . So he withdraws Amanda's alibi . They then turn their attention to Amanda and her phone.

How does that come under "interviewing someone as a witness"?
 
Regarding the emergency call...
If I came home to that scene (a bit of blood, a locked door with housemate uncontactable, a broken window), I sure wouldn't want the emergency operator to focus on the scene as a theft (especially if it seemed that nothing was missing) or a burglary.
This is because if I reported it that way, the call would be categorised in a certain way, and the police would not attend for days, perhaps not at all. I would want to be sure that what I was telling the operator was accurate and that they didn't get hung up on an element of the scene that would cause them to downgrade the call.
 
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