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Heeeeeeere's Obamacare!

But, American Exceptionalism!

American exceptionalism is not a talisman against incompetence and corruption. We are not immune to it.

Seriously, though, problems that pop up will be fixed.

Some of them, yes. But other problems are not bugs but design features, intentional opportunities for graft and political payoff. They will not be fixed.
 
In this case the insurance company lobbyists wrote up what they thought would be a money printing machine for themselves.
Hey now, as an actual actuary in the health field, I can tell you for sure that whoever the heck wrote that law was most assuredly NOT working for the interests of my company, nor of my field, nor of any company I know, nor in the interests of any health actuary I know. Pretty much the entire field of health actuaries thinks ACA is decidedly non-scottish.

In the early years the insurance companies got three provisions into the law that guaranteed their losses, if any, would be subsidized by taxpayers.
Actually, only two of them are tax-funded, and one of those is directly taxed. The Risk Adjustments are zero-sum market neutral; fees for the administration of that program are assessed directly to insurance policyholders at the state level. Reinsurance is federally administered, and is directly taxed via assessments to policy and contract holders - all individual policyholders, employer group policyholders, and self-funded contract holders are assessed fees to pay for it. The only one that comes from general funds on the backs of the taxpayers in the fashion you've implied is the Risk Corridors. Those, however, are an abysmal failure of congress to rub two brain cells together and come up with a coherent thought.

The individual market is nothing compared to what is going to happen when all of the employer based insurance policies are cancelled.
Except that employer coverage, at least for large employers, doesn't really work that way. They don't get cancelled in the same fashion. Insurers work collaboratively with the employer to alter or replace the coverage so that it is in compliance. The employees won't find themselves in the wind in the same way that policyholders in the individual market have.

All of this is a consequence of a bad law, not a bad website. The problems in the website are absolutely a function of that bad law. Many at this forum eagerly support a national single-payer system and are misguided in applying that support to a law that isn't even remotely such a system.
Well, no argument there :D
 
AlaskaBushPilot, both Germany and Switzerland have a very similar model to that being rolled out in ObamaCare. Both countries require their citizens to purchase insurance from private providers and set minimum standards for the policies. (Unfortunately, the relevant Wikipedia articles on healthcare in GermanyWP and healthcare in SwitzerlandWP do not address how the government enforces the requirement to purchase insurance.)

And yet neither system is a train wreck.Why do you think the experience in the United States will be so much worse?

IIRC both Germany's and Switzerland's systems are substantially different. They work a lot more like Medicare Advantage does in the US than like this trainwreck of a rube-goldberg contraption.
 
American exceptionalism is not a talisman against incompetence and corruption. We are not immune to it.



Some of them, yes. But other problems are not bugs but design features, intentional opportunities for graft and political payoff. They will not be fixed.

If it's that bad, we'll have to go to Single Payer or govt. option. What else is there?
 
Hey now, as an actual actuary in the health field, I can tell you for sure that whoever the heck wrote that law was most assuredly NOT working for the interests of my company, nor of my field, nor of any company I know, nor in the interests of any health actuary I know. Pretty much the entire field of health actuaries thinks ACA is decidedly non-scottish.

Rubbish. I'm an economist and I was paid almost $40K by my own state to estimate the costs of universal care here in Alaska. Boy they must not have liked my report because they buried it so deep I am probably the only one with a copy of it now. This isn't of pedestrian interest to me. One of the things I did in that report was demonstrate how vastly superior a single payer system was than the rube-Goldberg piecemeal approach alternatives they had me consider.

Here is a Forbes article for demonstrating how optimistic insurance companies are about profit growth expected from Obamacare (before they got the rug pulled out from them):

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2013/10/26/despite-glitches-obamacare-profit-windfall-to-insurers-well-underway/

Liz Fowler, as vice president of WellPoint whose profit increases are discussed in the article above, wrote the 87 page White Paper that served as a foundation for the law, and she has been publicly credited for that by, for example, Senator Max Baucus. Let Google do the work for you there, I want to focus on pointing out to people the ghastly train wreck that is coming. This is something of vital importance and we have to set down partisan crap so that we can all come to an understanding about what is happening.

Actually, only two of them are tax-funded, and one of those is directly taxed. The Risk Adjustments are zero-sum market neutral; fees for the administration of that program are assessed directly to insurance policyholders at the state level.

That is exactly right, thank you. I thought too about emphasizing the taxpayers were subsidizing, not 100% covering losses. The reason that is important is because they will still be losses and the insurance company lobbyists will go into overdrive trying to amend the law or get more executive orders to compensate, and this chaos is one of the things that is the most frightening about what is developing. They have every right to demand the law be changed again to cover the losses because it was the government who removed the mandates that made it possible for the insurance companies to profit from Obamacare. You have to understand that the biggest problem is a cascade of one "fix" requiring another "fix" and this has been dealt with by unconstitutional executive orders instead of congress re-writing the law. There are grave questions here going beyond just the health care law but go straight to the root of how the rule of law is supposed to work.


Except that employer coverage, at least for large employers, doesn't really work that way. They don't get cancelled in the same fashion. Insurers work collaboratively with the employer to alter or replace the coverage so that it is in compliance. The employees won't find themselves in the wind in the same way that policyholders in the individual market have.

Look, please work with me here and be absolutely forthright. I need people that deeply disagree with me philosophically to come together on this and shed light on what is happening. Employer provided policies are being made illegal. Employers will pay far more for these policies and the workers will suffer from reduced pay on account of it. They will also do things like stop employment at 49 people to evade the law, etc. Do not pretend they are not being cancelled and that there will be nothing to worry about because they are not being cancelled "in the same way".


Someone asked what is different about this than other countries. Let me emphasize better what is going to happen that scares the willies out of me:

First of all, the Administration is lying about "enrollments". Prior to the debacle the HHS considered someone enrolled if they paid for a policy. You are not insured unless you PAY for it. How many have actually PAID for an insurance plan and are INSURED? Well since the back end of the system that actually pays insurers has not been started yet, that number might be zero. Is there anyone on this forum who has both selected an actual plan and paid for it willing to please tell us about it?

Since the roll-out was a debacle, the Obama administration has been using the term "enrollment" in a different way in order to make the numbers look better even though they are ghastly enough as it is.

The back end of the system concerns what are called the 834 transactions. These are all the data transfers and administration that actually gets policies paid for and put into effect. One analyst I read indicated it would take a year to straighten this part of it out but it is certainly more time than the weeks they gave their new administrative Czar to fix.

The security concerns are another thing, not just because it will be a system rife for offing with people's information for identity theft, but because that fear will also keep healthy people from signing up whereas the deathly ill are not going to care anywhere near as much because the stakes are so high from them.

When the website is fixed insofar as the USERS are concerned, and this is the only thing the Obama administration has promised to the tune of only 80% - we will have millions upon millions of people who think they have "enrolled" but for which no policy has actually been put into effect because it has not been paid for and because the insurance companies are getting garbage 834 data like they told us in the beginning. The administration is refusing to tell us what the error rate is in the 834's now and that tells us all we need to know.

So while the administration right now touts "enrollment" figures, as appalling as they may be, nobody is going to give a damn that they are "enrolled" if they don't have insurance. To get it, it has to be purchased.

Amazon dot com and any other private sales company has one metric: you either bought the product and it will be delivered to you, or you have not bought it and it will not be delivered. If you put something in your shopping cart but the computer does not let you make the transaction then sure, you can call that "enrollment", but the product is not yours and when you go to the doctor there is no insurance to pay for your service.

So it is simply irrelevant whether people on December 1 are capable of "enrolling". The question should be can they buy insurance. The way the law is written you have to go through the Obamacare computer nightmare in order to qualify for a subsidy. You can purchase the insurance that is legal by going directly to the insurance company instead - but you will have to pay the full cost.

I urge all of us to set down our rose-colored glasses and partisan bickering to come to a full understanding of how much worse this is than Obama is admitting. It is hard to know if he sees it and is too afraid to face the facts or if he is really this ignorant. Giving a speech is one thing, but managing a takeover of 1/6th of the economy is altogether another. We are watching Obama make knee-jerk political reactions to get through the day but which undermine the very law he pushed through - and the more of it he does the greater chaos there will be. He had to keep the employer and individual mandates in order for this to work, and instead of abandoning the mandate to have the penalty for not enrolling ratchet up every year to ensure the healthy people are subsidizing the sick. They have already abandoned that and the law cannot work without it.

I have no glee over what I see coming. It scares me and I am not a republican who thinks this disaster is good for my team. My team is my wife and children.
 
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Seems that there are a lot of people happy that their insurance got canceled, because they are getting much better deals through Obamacare: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...ans-greeted-canceled-health-plans-with-smiles
... None of this comes as a surprise to Micah Weinberg, a senior researcher at the Bay Area Council Economic Institute in San Francisco. "A lot of the anecdotes about people having policies canceled and gigantic increases are real — but not representative of what's happening more broadly in the marketplace," he says.

Weinberg predicts many people who are losing their policies will come out ahead — even if their premiums go up — because of lower deductibles, full coverage of preventive care and no penalties for pre-existing conditions. What's more, he says, health insurance will almost certainly be cheaper for those who qualify for subsidies. In California, that's an estimated 2.5 million people. ...
 
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If you've got any numbers with a source, feel free to present them.

As opposed to the ones you just pulled out of your GOP? :rolleyes:

Seems that there are a lot of people happy that their insurance got canceled, because they are getting much better deals through Obamacare: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...ans-greeted-canceled-health-plans-with-smiles

Funny how people don't mind paying slightly more for actual medical coverage as opposed to getting a cheap deal on no medical coverage.
 
Funny how people don't mind paying slightly more for actual medical coverage as opposed to getting a cheap deal on no medical coverage.

Yeah, and it's equally funny that the industry experts say that those people are also the norm. I think it's only a matter of time before more and more people start to see that they're generally getting a better deal under the ACA.
 
Yeah, and it's equally funny that the industry experts say that those people are also the norm. I think it's only a matter of time before more and more people start to see that they're generally getting a better deal under the ACA.

Evidence? Nah, of course not! Why waste time on that?
 
Look, please work with me here and be absolutely forthright. I need people that deeply disagree with me philosophically to come together on this and shed light on what is happening. Employer provided policies are being made illegal. Employers will pay far more for these policies and the workers will suffer from reduced pay on account of it. They will also do things like stop employment at 49 people to evade the law, etc. Do not pretend they are not being cancelled and that there will be nothing to worry about because they are not being cancelled "in the same way".

I don't understand what you are claiming here. You seem to be blowing things way out of proportion in a way that implies something quite different from reality. You're using terms in a way that makes them mean something different from what they mean in reality.

In reality, if your policy is cancelled, then you completely lose access to that policy. It is not replaced. If you want a different policy, you have to go do the homework and choose your one to replace it, all by yourself.

This is not what is happening with employer plans. Employer have until 2015 to make their plans meet the minimum coverage requirements set forth in the ACA, or the employer will be fined. Those plans are not being cancelled. They are being modified, in the same way that they are modified whenever any other benefit mandate is put in place by law. The benefits offered will be changed by the insurer to meet the minimum coverage requirements, and yes, if it is necessary, the price will also go up. But none of those employees is going to receive a letter telling them that their coverage has been cancelled. None of them will really even notice, except that next time they go through their annual benefit election period at work, their benefits will look different, and what they pay might be different.

As far as employees suffering from reduced pay, this is another case of exaggeration. Although there is significant variation, most larger employer already have benefits that meet the minimum standards, or are very close - in fact, many of them exceed the minimum requirements by a fair bit. The cost impact is fairly small for large employers. For smaller employers it can be more extreme, but it's more likely to show up as changes in the employer contribution rate to medical coverage than in changes to wages. Yes, I understand this is effectively the same from a take-home-pay perspective, but your phrasing above makes it sound as if employers are actually going to be reducing pay... which is unlikely to be the case.

As far as capping employment at 49 employees... yes, this is a real possibility. By doing so, the employer is exempt from certain penalties if they drop coverage that they currently have. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing for their employees - not necessarily a good thing either. It would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Either way, I'm not going to jump on your bandwagon and start beating your drum. I'm in the business of telling the whole truth, and conveying as complete and accurate a picture as it is in my power to convey. I do not take part in partisan politicking, nor do I support propaganda. And having taken some statistics classes that were offered in an actuarial department does not qualify you to opine on actuarial topics.
 
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Are you responding, to the post above mine?

I was responding to you, but looking back I realize there are two parts you could have been asking about evidence.

If you're looking for the "industry experts" evidence that's fair play. When I first posted, I thought you were asking for evidence of MM's prediction of what people will think of ACA in the future.
 
This is not what is happening with employer plans. Employer have until 2015 to make their plans meet the minimum coverage requirements set forth in the ACA, or the employer will be fined.

Word games. I see you are an apologist. I know exactly how this is working.

Bush was a war criminal that should be spending the rest of his life in jail. I have no qualms about calling a spade a spade. Likewise here I am not going to act as an apologist for this bad law and the spectacular failure of its administration.


I am overseas working and under a deadline. I just tried to log on and sign up, and got this message:

The Health Insurance Marketplace online application isn't available from approximately 1 a.m. to 5 a.m. EST daily while we make improvements. Additional down times may be possible as we work to make things better. The rest of the site and the Marketplace call center remain available during these hours.


Except that it was 7:20 EST and the online application isn't available.

So much for the re-launch being ready as of yesterday. Just a wee bit of irony in the administration telling me to sign up during off-peak hours when the website application is closed, according to the above, EVERY DAY in the prime off-peak hours.
 
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Tried to log in to the "fixed" site a few minutes ago, still can't log in.
 
It makes me restart my application (again) like it did the past two times. Then I get to the question:

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Way to fix the website, guys!
 

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