Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[toto]

It is amusing how easily and how often Sollecito lies. In his call he says there has been no furto or theft in the second or third sentence. Well before the cop became " fixated"or mentioned the thief cutting himself and leaving blood in the bathroom. As far as being fixated he only said one thing so he entered through the window and cut himself? Sollecito flustered hesitates, and you can hear him say cosa fai to Amanda then hang up.Sollecito does not take into account that we can listen to the calls just like we can hear at how he once described Filomena's door as being wide open and tried to fix that in his book.

Machiavelli did say that he wasn't asked first about any theft, but he was, in both calls.

 

[acbytesla]

Machiavelli did say that he wasn't asked first about any theft, but he was, in both calls.

Isn't it interesting that Briars somehow falsely states how easily Raffaele's lies, yet in truth, Raffaele was for the most part right on point. Minor differences in recall doesn't constitute lies, but many many statements I have read by Mignini and Machiavelli have been obvious deliberate lies and obfuscation.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I know, that's how I know the responder - not Sollecito - was the one that raised the issues first.

That's also how I know it was the same responder and that it was the responder who was persisting with the issue about the bleeding.



The police responders line of questioning is actually fairly reasonable. The police are trying to determine whether the burglar is injured or whether there is a chance it could have been the flatmate. At this time, it could even have been the flatmate that broke in. It would not be unheard of for a student town like Perugia to have multiple breakins every year due to drunk students forgetting their keys.

Aaaand it's over for Briars.

Briars, someone is feeding you mendacious propaganda and you're swallowing it without checking the facts. Raffaele is telling the truth. Whoever sold you the falsehoods you repeat, Briars, is a liar.

 

[Bill Williams]

Can someone who speaks Itlian translate this: (Machiavelli?)

OMICIDIO MEREDITH, LA LISTA DEGLI INDAGATI:
MANUELA COMODI Pubblico Ministero, il 6 dicembre sarà processata dal CSM per il video della ricostruzione dell’omicidio e mai acquisito agli atti (=inutile) commissionato al fratello del segretario della Procura di Perugia e pagato 182.740 euro.
GIULIANO MIGNINI Pubblico Ministero, tra i reati imputati, spicca l’abuso d’ufficio, per il quale sarà processato il 15 gennaio.
MONICA NAPOLEONI ex poliziotta sezione omicidi e i colleghi STEFANO GUBBIOTTI e LORENA ZUGARINI, tutti protagonisti del fermo, dell’interrogatorio e dell’arresto nel 2007 di Amanda e Raffaele: sono indagati per abuso di potere e istigazione alla violazione del sistema informatico riservato.
RAFFAELE ARGIRO’ ex guardia carceraria, indagato per violenza sessuale aggravata e concussione ai danni di una detenut,a che lo ha denunciato dopo aver letto le dichiarazioni di Amanda che rivelò le strane visite notturne di Argirò, il quale cercava di farla confessare e la tormentava con insistenti domande circa le sue abitudini sessuali.
CARLO PACELLI, Avvocato di Lumumba, indagato per infedele patrocinio, truffa e calunnia.

 

[Kaosium]

The impatient growling officer made Sollecito say there was no theft. Why the need to find a reason? What was it about his statement that he needed to alter it in his book.begs the question.These kind of adjustments do not appeal casual especially when they attempt to change the responsibility of the remark away from Sollecito.

Briars, Raffaele wasn't calling to report a theft. The dispatcher jumped to that conclusion and Raffaele corrected him. Twice. Raffaele was calling to report a break-in, but with no obvious signs of things being stolen and stuff out you'd think a thief would want. However there was blood in the bathroom and a locked door with that roomate missing who wasn't responding to calls. That's why he was calling, not to report a theft like the dispatcher kept assuming, even after being corrected, which may be why Raffaele described him as 'fixiated' on it in his book.

He accurately described the scene while summoning police. He wanted them to come and look for themselves. When the Postal Police show up shortly thereafter to return Meredith's phones they are invited in to look at the scene and they notice the same thing: it doesn't appear to be a theft.

Maybe that's because just like the dispatcher naturally assumed that someone calling to report a break-in is reporting a theft, someone who's at that scene with valuable stuff laying out you'd suppose a thief would want would say it didn't look like a theft. Raffaele is just correcting the dispatcher's mistaken assumption and returning to the reason he called.

Which wasn't to report a theft, but a broken window, a mess in that room, blood in the bathroom and a missing roommate with a locked door who wasn't responding to calls.

 

[davefoc]

I know, that's how I know the responder - not Sollecito - was the one that raised the issues first.

That's also how I know it was the same responder and that it was the responder who was persisting with the issue about the bleeding.



The police responders line of questioning is actually fairly reasonable. The police are trying to determine whether the burglar is injured or whether there is a chance it could have been the flatmate. At this time, it could even have been the flatmate that broke in. It would not be unheard of for a student town like Perugia to have multiple breakins every year due to drunk students forgetting their keys.

Briars,
What is going on here? I understood you to be an Italian speaker that had heard the emergency call by Sollecito. Did I misunderstand you? It seems like what Skind has quoted here is in direct conflict with what you claimed. Was there another emergency call? Has Skind misquoted the emergency call? Was it your intent to claim that Sollecito had claimed there was no theft before the issue was raised by the emergency operator first or did I misunderstand you on that?

What Briars said:

He is trying to explain why he said there was no theft. He writes it was after the officer growled at him and was fixated on the thief being cut. This account in his book is false as anyone can hear or read in the transcripts. When people go out of ther way to explain by changing something it shows they know it to be a problem.

What did you mean by this? What is it that you claim to be Sollecito's lie?

 

[Briars]

Congrats, you can cut and paste.

What a stupid thing to say are you suggesting I don' t understand italian and am lying? Really what a juvenile comment easy to disprove.

 

[billyryan]

Meanwhile, Mignini the clown is caught in actual lies. He escaped criminal conviction by procedural loopholes but he's facing trial again.

Meanwhile the thugs of Perugian flying squad are removed from their posts with very serious evidence of criminal activity hanging above their heads.

Meanwhile, Comodi the liar is caught siphoning public money out and is facing trial.

That is it in a nutshell,thank you Katody for summing up this whole case in five lines

 

[Strozzi]

That makes perfect sense. Nicely done.

I think Meredith locked her door more than Filomena realized. Meredith may have locked it when she had a lot cash in her room, including when she had rent cash onhand. She may have locked in if there was a man in the house - a friend of Filomena, Laura, or Amanda. She may have locked it for other reasons.

Amanda would be in the best position to know because their rooms were adjacent, their bedroom doors were side-by-side, and Amanda and Merdith's daily schedules of classes overlapped better than Meredith's schedule with that of Filomena and Laura, who were working normal business-day hours at a law firm. Amanda would have heard Meredith turn her bedroom door key when she was coming and going.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Can someone who speaks Itlian translate this: (Machiavelli?)

OMICIDIO MEREDITH, LA LISTA DEGLI INDAGATI:
MANUELA COMODI Pubblico Ministero, il 6 dicembre sarà processata dal CSM per il video della ricostruzione dell’omicidio e mai acquisito agli atti (=inutile) commissionato al fratello del segretario della Procura di Perugia e pagato 182.740 euro.
GIULIANO MIGNINI Pubblico Ministero, tra i reati imputati, spicca l’abuso d’ufficio, per il quale sarà processato il 15 gennaio.
MONICA NAPOLEONI ex poliziotta sezione omicidi e i colleghi STEFANO GUBBIOTTI e LORENA ZUGARINI, tutti protagonisti del fermo, dell’interrogatorio e dell’arresto nel 2007 di Amanda e Raffaele: sono indagati per abuso di potere e istigazione alla violazione del sistema informatico riservato.
RAFFAELE ARGIRO’ ex guardia carceraria, indagato per violenza sessuale aggravata e concussione ai danni di una detenut,a che lo ha denunciato dopo aver letto le dichiarazioni di Amanda che rivelò le strane visite notturne di Argirò, il quale cercava di farla confessare e la tormentava con insistenti domande circa le sue abitudini sessuali.
CARLO PACELLI, Avvocato di Lumumba, indagato per infedele patrocinio, truffa e calunnia.

Briars?

 

[Grinder]

Here:
[qimg]http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=27&image_id=384[/qimg]

Thanks!

 

[moije2]

I prefer my own analysis of Machiavelli's rhetoric... but, hey, note how far one comes from actually adjudicating the facts of the horrible Kercher murder!? That's the point.

Either way, Machiavelli is saying, with regards to the Kercher murder and the unjust prosecution of two innocents, "oh look, squirrel!"

Machiavelli is clinging to a world of simplistic good and evil. But c'mon Charlie.... you have to admit it is rhetorical "bait and switch" to first assert Mignini's honesty, and then start talking about the "sovereignty of a system," which is part of the larger national sovereignty?

Crini has smaller problems. The RIS Carabinieri have removed the kitchen knife as evidence, and Crini is now trying to get it back into evidence saying it's a match for the sheet outline. Crini is also defying the ISC by saying, no, it was not a sex game gone wrong, it was the "Amanda and Meredith" were fighting scenario, this one sparked by Rudy's pooh in the toilet.

There's all sorts of rhetoric flying around... sure Berlusconi is a swine. Perhaps we could agree to that over wine with Machiavelli.... but what's that got to do with Machiavelli's basic rhetorical method, which is "bait and switch"?

Interesting analysis and I can agree with your thoughts here. I think though that there might be a different take, slightly, on Crini's offering re motive. While the SC has apparently directed a renewed look at the sex game gone wrong angle, I think that perhaps the buck stops with the motivation report from this appellate court. It is they that have to address these issues. And by bringing the offending turd hypothesis Crini might actually be providing another duty of analysis on the court and their motivation report. On first glance it might seem smart to feed language to the appellate jurors but maybe they think it better left alone. After all, the SC already dreamed up its importance and now it is for the defense to disprove it. After the defense closing, depending on what is said, then the prosecutors can address that issue during their rebuttal.

Possibly.

 

[moije2]

Can someone who speaks Itlian translate this: (Machiavelli?)

OMICIDIO MEREDITH, LA LISTA DEGLI INDAGATI:
MANUELA COMODI Pubblico Ministero, il 6 dicembre sarà processata dal CSM per il video della ricostruzione dell’omicidio e mai acquisito agli atti (=inutile) commissionato al fratello del segretario della Procura di Perugia e pagato 182.740 euro.
GIULIANO MIGNINI Pubblico Ministero, tra i reati imputati, spicca l’abuso d’ufficio, per il quale sarà processato il 15 gennaio.
MONICA NAPOLEONI ex poliziotta sezione omicidi e i colleghi STEFANO GUBBIOTTI e LORENA ZUGARINI, tutti protagonisti del fermo, dell’interrogatorio e dell’arresto nel 2007 di Amanda e Raffaele: sono indagati per abuso di potere e istigazione alla violazione del sistema informatico riservato.
RAFFAELE ARGIRO’ ex guardia carceraria, indagato per violenza sessuale aggravata e concussione ai danni di una detenut,a che lo ha denunciato dopo aver letto le dichiarazioni di Amanda che rivelò le strane visite notturne di Argirò, il quale cercava di farla confessare e la tormentava con insistenti domande circa le sue abitudini sessuali.
CARLO PACELLI, Avvocato di Lumumba, indagato per infedele patrocinio, truffa e calunnia.

I imagine those in support of the sovereign whatever are not anxious to translate this listing of honorable dottores and their various criminal indictments.

 

[Grinder]

And how is my saying that I'm tired of this argument a "straw man" ? You need to look up what a straw man is because this isn't that.

That was beautiful a straw man argument to prove there was no straw man.

You said that what he said was not a sign of guilt, which I had never said, which makes it a straw man. Now you attempt to say I was arguing against your being tired of discussing your on-going penchant for straw men, which I wasn't. Another straw man.

 

[Grinder]

I hesitate to express scorn for an opposing view, but it's hard to see what other response is needed. We're talking about Raff's remark that nothing had been stolen. Several people have pointed out exactly why there is no reason for it to raise any eyebrows, regardless of what else was known or wasn't known; all I've seen from you is a series of unsupported assertions defending the police in calling it "suspicious", without any rationale for doing so.

Whatever stage it was that I started following the story has nothing to do with it. You haven't made your case. Just drop it.

Since you apparently can't put yourself back in time (figuratively) you just can't understand what was what back then.

But since you have all the rationals now offered it is clear that then the PLE should have used the same ones to disregard the odd reply.

Do you think the PLE was trying to frame them from day one?

You haven't made your case, just drop it!

 

[Briars]

Can someone who speaks Itlian translate this: (Machiavelli?)

OMICIDIO MEREDITH, LA LISTA DEGLI INDAGATI:
MANUELA COMODI Pubblico Ministero, il 6 dicembre sarà processata dal CSM per il video della ricostruzione dell’omicidio e mai acquisito agli atti (=inutile) commissionato al fratello del segretario della Procura di Perugia e pagato 182.740 euro.
GIULIANO MIGNINI Pubblico Ministero, tra i reati imputati, spicca l’abuso d’ufficio, per il quale sarà processato il 15 gennaio.
MONICA NAPOLEONI ex poliziotta sezione omicidi e i colleghi STEFANO GUBBIOTTI e LORENA ZUGARINI, tutti protagonisti del fermo, dell’interrogatorio e dell’arresto nel 2007 di Amanda e Raffaele: sono indagati per abuso di potere e istigazione alla violazione del sistema informatico riservato.
RAFFAELE ARGIRO’ ex guardia carceraria, indagato per violenza sessuale aggravata e concussione ai danni di una detenut,a che lo ha denunciato dopo aver letto le dichiarazioni di Amanda che rivelò le strane visite notturne di Argirò, il quale cercava di farla confessare e la tormentava con insistenti domande circa le sue abitudini sessuali.
CARLO PACELLI, Avvocato di Lumumba, indagato per infedele patrocinio, truffa e calunnia.

What's your point Bill why not ask your pal Frank if he was one of the two? Perugians who registered a complaint against the cost of the video..Amanda never complained about her treatment in jail to her lawyers. The guard should be charged for actual transgressions involving her or others if true, Nothing to do with her innocence btw. Mignini will not be charged with anything unlike Spezi. Do you know why Sollecito met him in Florence?

 

[acbytesla]

What a stupid thing to say are you suggesting I don' t understand italian and am lying? Really what a juvenile comment easy to disprove.

Actually, I thought it was quite clever.
What's interesting is that you say you speak Italian and Bill just asked for a translation of a short passage, and you avoided it like the plague.

 

[acbytesla]

That was beautiful a straw man argument to prove there was no straw man.

You said that what he said was not a sign of guilt, which I had never said, which makes it a straw man. Now you attempt to say I was arguing against your being tired of discussing your on-going penchant for straw men, which I wasn't. Another straw man.

I never said you did. In fact your claim that my straw man is in fact, a straw man. Mine is not a straw man.

 

[Bill Williams]

What's your point Bill why not ask your pal Frank if he was one of the two? Perugians who registered a complaint against the cost of the video..Amanda never complained about her treatment in jail to her lawyers. The guard should be charged for actual transgressions involving her or others if true, Nothing to do with her innocence btw. Mignini will not be charged with anything unlike Spezi. Do you know why Sollecito met him in Florence?

My point was as asked.... can you provide a translation?

"Amanda never complained about her treatment to her lawyers"? Well, I guess that gets the guard off the hook..... sheesh, what an idiotic comment, all to deflect from what the Italian says. It pretty much says that just about everyone associated with this wrongful conviction and wrongful quashing of an acquittal are criminals themselves!

And you're defending them by deflecting as many posts as possible in some other direction? What's your beef?

 

[yimyammer]

Maybe he wrote from memory and didn't check everything - his editor should have checked. Maybe he's just fed up with all the nonsense speculation and thought it was a better way to get the measage of his innocence across - even innocent people will try to put themselves in the best light, especially if accused of a crime they didn't commit and have been through the kind of hell Raffaele went through and still is going through - he possibly didn't think he was going to be on trial so exaggerated some parts to create a better narrative - this is no indication of guilt

Considering the attention given to every minute detail in this case by his adversaries, I think that would have been an incredibly foolish thing to do as well as a foolish assumption to make