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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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So some photographs have been mis captioned, the notorious Ivanogorod photograph is a case in point. So what?
The issue was researched by Udo Walendy (later imprisoned for his trouble) in his book Forged War Crimes Malign the German Nation. His point was not to deny that atrocities occurred, but to ask why, if genuine photograhic evidence existed, the Soviets introduced falsifications into the documentary record.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-ukraine-1942-what-are-we-seeing-6264646.html. [Fisk writes: "Her foot is lifted from the ground as though she might be moving away from the soldier "
So the source of the photograph (see below) is the Polish underground. The woman and soldier's feet are clearly not on the ground. The upper body of the soldier is out of proportion to the lower body. It looks as though their images have been superimposed on the photo in the usual Soviet montage style. There is nothing in the photo to indicate geographical location (not significant in itself, but a universal feature of Soviet atrocity images). This is typical of what I find in holocaust studies: what purports to be evidence turns out on closer inspection to be something other than what it is presented as and no longer to carry conviction.

However, the book you mention by Janina Struk sounds interesting. What does it do to counter Walendy's analysis?
 

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A decisive topic? Yes, despite this, I am mostly saddened by some of the views presented in this thread!!

I maintain an opinion which I feel is formulated by fact and not fiction, nor by the need to agree simply because it is now considered popular to do so. I would instead welcome factual evidence from deniers which clearly disprove popular belief which is supported be a vast collection of evidence. [.....]
The videos available on codoh.com and on youtube are a reasonable summary of central revisionist arguments. If you want something in written form, you might try Fred Leuchter and Germar Rudolf's respective Reports on Auschwitz or Carlo Mattogno's Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp (to which Nick Terry et al have written a reply to which Mattogno et al have in turn replied). There are numerous other revisionist writers. I confine myself to recent authors aiming to "clearly disprove" some central claims. Much of the debate does not rise to proof, but merely weighs the probability or plausibility of various claims. Juergen Graf's Giant with Feet of Clay is a good general critique of Raul Hilberg, for example.
 
Disputing crimes against humanity is itself a crime under s130 of the German criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch). Generally, those who did not plead guilty confined themselves to denying personal knowledge. However, this includes those who would have been bound to know if the events alleged had occurred. One such is Robert Mulka, deputy adjutant of Auschwitz:
http://youtu.be/uwcjf1JGMxk
As for outright denial, this would include Erich Priebke, who died recently in Italy where he admitted participated in an SS reprisal shooting:
http://morbusignorantia.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/das-letzte-interview-mit-erich-priebke-vom-juli-2013/
http://olodogma.com/wordpress/2013/10/12/0421-la-mort-derich-priebke-livre-un-important-message/
He also refers to statements made by Goering and Kaltenbrunner at the time of the Nuremberg trials.

I'm not aware of specific denial by those at Treblinka, though I see that Kurt Franz wrote in his album that his time there was "the best days of my life", which seems an unlikely description for an involvement in systematic mass murder with a sideline in sadistic atrocity:
http://holocausthistorychannel.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screenshot-301.png
But then, the usual laws of psychology are suspended in holocaust studies, along with the laws of physics, chemistry, etc, so it's a weak argument.

It's a touching myth that denying genocide would have brought about prosecution of war crimes suspects. Article 130 wasn't in force until the mid-1990s and would not be applicable in the same form in a war crimes case anyhow; there have certainly been the odd few cases where war crimes suspects resorted to overtly negationist arguments, invariably without success however.

Flat denials of knowledge or responsibility were legion among war crimes suspects and accused in trials. What was never once offered was an affirmative defense such as 'transit' or 'resettlement' backed up by detailed evidence - a few Security Police officers testified that they believed the Jews were being 'resettled', but when they were stationed in France (for example), this belief was worthless without some indication of where the resettlements were going to.

There are too many photos of smiling killers posing next to their victims from too many conflicts to make your incredulity over why Kurt Franz, a noted sadist, might entitle a photo album from Treblinka 'The Best Days of My Life', anything other than confirmation of your utter ignorance of the history of mass violence and of human psychology.

What is truly implausible and what truly violates the laws of psychology is the implied denier claim that the staff of the death camps all failed to testify to the 'true' purpose of the camps (if they were not extermination camps).

When we are talking about more than 1,000 people involved (at Auschwitz and the other death camps) who were interrogated over a period of many decades by many different states as well as private individuals, and none of them ever once told what you guys claim is the true story, then we can conclude beyond all reasonable doubt that the denier version is bull faeces.

Because it doesn't matter what handwaving excuse is offered for their silence about the "truth" (coercion, torture, hypnosis, zeitgeist, hysteria, tactical legal considerations, bribery, whatever other nonsense is claimed without the slighest shred of hard evidence), then for these factors to work so uniformly to produce not even a 0.1% rate of deviation from the norm is utterly beyond belief.
 
Disputing crimes against humanity is itself a crime under s130 of the German criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch).

This is something you deniers often repeat, but it is still wrong. The German Criminal Code is easily available online, in translation:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1200
Section 130(3) penalizes anyone who "denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace"

It is not a crime to deny an act which did not happen, or which did not happen under Nazi rule. Or, put another way, denial is only criminal if it is factually incorrect denial. But then, that would be the problem, wouldn't it?
 
I'm not aware of specific denial by those at Treblinka, though I see that Kurt Franz wrote in his album that his time there was "the best days of my life", which seems an unlikely description for an involvement in systematic mass murder with a sideline in sadistic atrocity:
http://holocausthistorychannel.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screenshot-301.png
But then, the usual laws of psychology are suspended in holocaust studies, along with the laws of physics, chemistry, etc, so it's a weak argument.

Unlikely? Seems? You don't really understand sadism then, do you ESC? Franz was described as a sadist by those who saw what he did in Treblinka. The Ukrainian hiwi feared him. There were photographs missing from his "Good old days album," (not sneer quotes) too I believe, they had been torn out of it and were missing. Your personal incredulity or learned incredulity - as the case may be- doesn't tip the scale here. Read a bit more criminal psychology. Concerning photography, Walendy, U. Him, the user of the retouched spaghetti picture from the smuggled out roll taken from the door of Krema V in Birkenau during Hungarian aktions? Yes well that's another pot of beans that has been refried and refried.

If you want to argue that every picture documenting the period which is clearly incriminating in some fashion is fraudulent, then on you go. I'm really not going to get into any such discussions upon forums with you Revisionists. I have done that now and have learned that such topics represent a very special level of, "prove it," tedium. I am more interested myself in why. Why choose to document the crimes? Who was behind the camera, etc. What should be read into their activites, what should be read into what they chose not to photograph?

You are arguing otherwise I think that the events did not happen and mostly upon the strength of surviving photographs. Fine. I must remind you that these images are tied to specific documented events. They should not be viewed in isolation as is the good ole rev approach. These graphic images supplement historical understanding.

In studying the photographs of professional photographer Johannes Hähle and his documenting of the Lubny aktion (SK4a 16 October 1942.) we learn from what is being shown things about how the aktion was carried out. All that Hähle chose not to photograph that day were the murders themselves. Everything else is shown, the utter despondency of people sitting. People waiting themselves to have to stand up and be lead away and shot. The removal of warm outer clothing etc. The final leading off in small groups to the execution site. Johannes Hähle was attached to Propagandakompanie and was with 6th Army in Russia, he was injured before Stalingrad and so escaped the enciclement. He was a very good German photographer.

It was he who had also caught the evidence afterward of Babi Yar in Kiev with a roll of colour film and now here he was a scant two weeks later in Lubny, Ukraine. Recording with his camera all the events which lead to the destruction of the Jewish community there that day. Those killings at Lubny were accounted for in a paragraph in Operational Situation Report 132:

"Another platoon of Sonderkommando 4a was active at Lubny. Without any opposition, it executed 1,363 Jews, Communists, and partisans, among them 53 prisoners-of-war and a few Jewish rifle-women. Before the war, Lubny had 35,000 inhabitants, among them 14,000 Jews. A recent census undertaken by the local municipal administration showed that of 20,000 inhabitants allegedly only 1,500 Jews can be listed."

I believe one Lemmy Caution who used to argue with Holocaust Revosionosts here wrote about the subject of photography broadly.

Lemmy Caution:

For the vast body of photographs and documents which deniers declare to be forgeries - under the doctrine of * IFWF - there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of forgery or tampering. A contrasting photographic example is the famous Yezhov photo as well as photos of Trotsky. In these cases, we can see, from negatives, original and altered version. Much of what passes for photo analysis among deniers is conspiracy theorizing about digital versions of photographs, with all the problems inherent in using these kinds of copies. That there are many Holocaust photographs incorrectly captioned or used on certain Websites without care doesn't speak to the photographs themselves, nor to scholars' uses of these documents; rather, it speaks to the nature of the "democratic" Web. Janina Struk's Photographing the Holocaust is a good treatment o the use of photographs in constructing historical understanding of this period and a good caution against "fundamentalist" uses of photography. That said, along with other sources, as with the Liepaja photos or the famous Birkenau SK photos, or photos documenting mass graves, this kind of evidence is quite useful and not so glibly dismissed as our deniers pretend with their Moscow Forgery Factories and other flights of fancy. In the case of Liepaja, for example, we know a great deal about the shooting of the photos, including the brand of camera, and how they came to be printed, along with narrative accounts of the actions which the photos record. Deniers would not be taken as charlatans and clowns if they were to document their claims about forgeries in the same manner. That they don't speaks to the absence of evidence for their claims as much as their incompetence in this area.

Working explanation. * It's a forgery or we're **********.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-202147-p-25.html

That seems essentially good enough to me.
 
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Given that you've been told and shown, repeatedly, that there was significant Jewish resistance, and you've ignored these points time and time again in order to weave your Monday Morning Quarterback narrative of What Should Have Happened, I hope you can understand why I place little trust in the accuracy of your recollections, Clay.

Baloney.

All lies. You can't be aware of millions of fellow Jews being gassed in Auschwitz and provide productive labor from Auschwitz as if all was pretty much hunky dory.

The Germans couldn't exterminate/gas millions of Jewish children, women, and men in Auschwitz and expect productive labor from Jewish people interred in Auschwitz who are aware of millions of Jewish children, women, and men being gassed in Auschwitz.

This common sense aspect must be shouted to the rooftops by all revisionists.

It's the bottom line. The Germans needed labor. And Auschwitz was a labor camp.
 
Clayton it is well documented from primary documents, the Nazis own, that Auschwitz-Birkenau was a death camp, the whole Auschwitz area was s series of main camp and sub camps such as Birkenau were the murders took place in the gas chambers.

Its all there in the Nazis own documents.
 
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Clayton it is well documented from primary documents, the Nazis own, that Auschwitz-Birkenau was a death camp, the whole Auschwitz area was s series of main camp and sub camps such as Birkenau were the murders took place in the gas chambers.

Its all there in the Nazis own documents.

No just fabrications. Like Elie Wiesel's missing tattoo.


Talk about the following.

The Germans couldn't exterminate/gas millions of Jewish children, women, and men in Auschwitz and expect productive labor from Jewish people interred in Auschwitz who are aware of millions of Jewish children, women, and men being gassed in Auschwitz.

This common sense aspect must be shouted to the rooftops by all revisionists.

It's the bottom line. The Germans needed labor. And Auschwitz was a labor camp.

Then you can explain how the Auschwitz crematoria were capable of cremating 2700 bodies a day. 1,000,000 a year for 3 straight years?
 
Talk about the following.



Then you can explain how the Auschwitz crematoria were capable of cremating 2700 bodies a day. 1,000,000 a year for 3 straight years?


EASY... They didn't.

The Birkenau crematoria operated between spring 1943 and fall 1944, that's not 3 years.

Neither did they cremate 1 million per year. You are not very good at this.
 
[.....]
Flat denials of knowledge or responsibility were legion among war crimes suspects and accused in trials. What was never once offered was an affirmative defense such as 'transit' or 'resettlement' backed up by detailed evidence - a few Security Police officers testified that they believed the Jews were being 'resettled', but when they were stationed in France (for example), this belief was worthless without some indication of where the resettlements were going to.

[.....] What is truly implausible and what truly violates the laws of psychology is the implied denier claim that the staff of the death camps all failed to testify to the 'true' purpose of the camps (if they were not extermination camps).

When we are talking about more than 1,000 people involved (at Auschwitz and the other death camps) who were interrogated over a period of many decades by many different states as well as private individuals, and none of them ever once told what you guys claim is the true story, then we can conclude beyond all reasonable doubt that the denier version is bull faeces.

Because it doesn't matter what handwaving excuse is offered for their silence about the "truth" (coercion, torture, hypnosis, zeitgeist, hysteria, tactical legal considerations, bribery, whatever other nonsense is claimed without the slighest shred of hard evidence), then for these factors to work so uniformly to produce not even a 0.1% rate of deviation from the norm is utterly beyond belief.
The contemporary records clearly refer to Durchganglager. The recent film on Hannah Arendt cites Adolf Eichmann's words: "Ich habe Sie nicht vernichtet" (I didn't annihilate you/them).
http://youtu.be/b-rnFLnu2jg
The film also cites Eichmann referring to "unsubstantiated allegations." So it not as though the "denier" thesis is not there in German records, even if it was not used as a defence in later trials.

As for legal defences, the Germans offered to provide explanations of what happened on the Eastern Front at Nuremberg, but were not permitted to do so (I cannot cite a source for this offhand, but was referred recently to the Trial transcripts as a source). There was certainly a development of legal practice in Germany after the Eichmann trial (where many later witnesses at the German trials were in the audience).

I wonder what you make of Caroline Sturdy Colls latest investigations at Treblinka, where she apparently decided not to (or perhaps was not allowed to) excavate the "pit" claimed to be where the cremated remains were buried. Nothing conclusive was found - though there clearly are cremated remains there in an uncertain quantity - but at least evidence is being uncovered.
 
This is something you deniers often repeat, but it is still wrong. The German Criminal Code is easily available online, in translation:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1200
Section 130(3) penalizes anyone who "denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace"

It is not a crime to deny an act which did not happen, or which did not happen under Nazi rule. Or, put another way, denial is only criminal if it is factually incorrect denial. But then, that would be the problem, wouldn't it?
As usual, isolated legal texts have to be interpreted in the context of other legislation and actual legal practice (i.e. case law or its equivalent). In practice, German courts make presumptions (i.e. do not permit reconsideration of evidence) about what acts happened relying on previous cases. It is quite clear that lawyers who have sought to question the conclusions of the Nuremberg judges in the course of legal defence work have been found at odds with s130 and some, notably Sylvia Stolz, have been imprisoned as a result. She speaks on her experiences as a defence lawyer here (with subtitles).

I concede that I am not aware of s130 being invoked in the trials of alleged war criminals, though it is relevant to later holocaust denial court cases, for example the trial of Otto Ernst Remer (1992).
 
Clayton it is well documented from primary documents, the Nazis own, that Auschwitz-Birkenau was a death camp, the whole Auschwitz area was s series of main camp and sub camps such as Birkenau were the murders took place in the gas chambers.

Its all there in the Nazis own documents.
No it isn't. The Zentralbauleitung (central building office)records of the SS, long thought destroyed by the Nazis to conceal the traces of their crimes - were discovered in the Soviet archives in the 1990s. Relevant documents were studied by Jean Claude Pressac, who claimed to find 39 "criminal traces" in the 1,000s of documents he examined, a claim later repeated by Robert van Pelt. Revisionist Carlo Mattogno has since studied these documents in more depth and found innocent interpretations for these supposed traces (see his Auschwitz: the Case for Sanity). So what Nazi documents specific to the status of Auschwitz as a death camp are you referring to?
 
If you want to argue that every picture documenting the period which is clearly incriminating in some fashion is fraudulent, then on you go. I'm really not going to get into any such discussions upon forums with you Revisionists. I have done that now and have learned that such topics represent a very special level of, "prove it," tedium. I am more interested myself in why. Why choose to document the crimes? Who was behind the camera, etc. What should be read into their activites, what should be read into what they chose not to photograph?
I agree in a way. As Raul Hilberg said "Who would want to spend a lifetime in the study of something that did not happen?" My own path was the opposite of yours: I began by asking why. Not finding a plausible answer, I took to the more logical path and began to ask "What actually happened?" and "What is the evidence?"

You are arguing otherwise I think that the events did not happen and mostly upon the strength of surviving photographs. Fine. I must remind you that these images are tied to specific documented events. They should not be viewed in isolation as is the good ole rev approach. These graphic images supplement historical understanding.
This first sentence makes no sense to me. As you will know from Walendy, in fact the same photographs are often tied in captions to mutually exclusive dates and locations. They are used as general illustrations and rarely show geographically identifiable places (there was a similar misuse of photographs in the UK Channel 5 documentary on excavations at Treblinka shown on 27 November 2013).

All that Hähle chose not to photograph that day were the murders themselves.
A bit like the recently discovered Auschwitz album that showed everything that happened to inmates on arrival "except the gas chambers". Now why would that be?

It was he who had also caught the evidence afterward of Babi Yar in Kiev with a roll of colour film and now here he was a scant two weeks later in Lubny, Ukraine. Recording with his camera all the events which lead to the destruction of the Jewish community there that day. Those killings at Lubny were accounted for in a paragraph in Operational Situation Report 132:

"Another platoon of Sonderkommando 4a was active at Lubny. Without any opposition, it executed 1,363 Jews, Communists, and partisans, among them 53 prisoners-of-war and a few Jewish rifle-women. Before the war, Lubny had 35,000 inhabitants, among them 14,000 Jews. A recent census undertaken by the local municipal administration showed that of 20,000 inhabitants allegedly only 1,500 Jews can be listed."
In fact, the situation report quote suggests that the majority of Jews had fled from Lubny. On the general question of the Einsatzgruppen killings, this is the next project of the revisionist scholars Mattogno, Graf and Kues, which I presume will consider the authenticity of documents.

I believe one Lemmy Caution who used to argue with Holocaust Revosionosts here wrote about the subject of photography broadly.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-202147-p-25.html

That seems essentially good enough to me.
The quote you give does nothing to address Walendy's arguments.
 
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