Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[LondonJohn]

Any idea Planigale on the cost of filing a case with the ECHR could the persecutors have been hoping that Amanda just could not raise the necessary funds to take this case to Europe,over on .org there is no mention of ECHR,but the Kerchers three lawyers and Pacelli for Lumumba get their voices heard tomorrow,the cost to the Kerchers of hiring three lawyers for six years must be enormous,why one, would not have done them I can only speculate,like somebody convinced them that an American and Italian family would end up picking up the tab

Most estimates are that it costs around $20,000-30,000 to take a case to the ECHR. Not cheap, but in the context of Knox's total legal bill, not a massive extra burden.

Incidentally, on timing issues, I note that 25th November is exactly on an 8-month limit starting from the date (26th March) that the SC affirmed the criminal slander conviction. I was under the impression that there was a 6-month limit on application to the ECHR, but perhaps either this has changed or Knox's team got an extra two months' dispensation.

 

[ArtemisTheCat]

There is still a six month limit to file to the EU but it comes from the date that the SC posted their motivation for their ruling. That happened in June, so the deadline to file to the EU is sometime in Dec.

 

[billyryan]

Most estimates are that it costs around $20,000-30,000 to take a case to the ECHR. Not cheap, but in the context of Knox's total legal bill, not a massive extra burden.

Incidentally, on timing issues, I note that 25th November is exactly on an 8-month limit starting from the date (26th March) that the SC affirmed the criminal slander conviction. I was under the impression that there was a 6-month limit on application to the ECHR, but perhaps either this has changed or Knox's team got an extra two months' dispensation.

Up to and including the Hellmann trial Pacelli (Lumumba's lawyer)offered the most thuggish character assassination of Amanda Knox,I have read that not even Comodi or Mignini or Maresca stooped as low as he did,whatever else, she has let him know he is not going to be payed for some considerable time yet with today's filing of an appeal to the ECHR

 

[Grinder]

Most estimates are that it costs around $20,000-30,000 to take a case to the ECHR. Not cheap, but in the context of Knox's total legal bill, not a massive extra burden.

Incidentally, on timing issues, I note that 25th November is exactly on an 8-month limit starting from the date (26th March) that the SC affirmed the criminal slander conviction. I was under the impression that there was a 6-month limit on application to the ECHR, but perhaps either this has changed or Knox's team got an extra two months' dispensation.

The calunnia case isn't done, right?

 

[acbytesla]

Up to and including the Hellmann trial Pacelli (Lumumba's lawyer)offered the most thuggish character assassination of Amanda Knox,I have read that not even Comodi or Mignini or Maresca stooped as low as he did,whatever else, she has let him know he is not going to be payed for some considerable time yet with today's filing of an appeal to the ECHR

That really has to annoy the hell out of Pacelli. It not only means that he's going to have wait to get paid, but that he is NEVER going to get paid. This is a case that is EASY to win in front of the ECHR and I'm sure Pacelli knows that. Now that Knox has invested the money to take the case to the ECHR, it eliminates any chance of a settlement for PL.

Pacelli had two chances left to win any money and that was slim and none and none just hopped a bus out of town.

 

[Strozzi]

I find it fascinating that we are now in a position where we have a prosecutor, who never saw a witness (Curatalo) testify, arguing to a jury, who also never saw the witness testify, that the witness is credible, despite the fact that the prior jury who did hear the witness testify found the witness not to be credible.

Also, the victim was killed before she screamed.

And, a bloody footprint left at the crime scene is evidence that the crime scene was cleaned up.

And, if the cops destroy the defendant's computer, or move the defendant's lamp into the crime scene, then that is evidence of guilt.

Only in Italy is any of this called "logic." In the rest of the world it's called nonsense.

i wonder how much this will cost Italy when the case is finally decided in faor of the defendants in the European Court of Human Rights. I believe that not only are the two defendants owed many millions, but each of their family member who was denied the enjoyment of their familily relationship should sue for millions of Euros, and the families should recover of all costs. Knox's three younger sisters grew up without the companionship of their sister Amanda and childhood happiness due to errors and cruel lies made by the PLE.

 

[Strozzi]

That really has to annoy the hell out of Pacelli. It not only means that he's going to have wait to get paid, but that he is NEVER going to get paid. This is a case that is EASY to win in front of the ECHR and I'm sure Pacelli knows that. Now that Knox has invested the money to take the case to the ECHR, it eliminates any chance of a settlement for PL.

Pacelli had two chances left to win any money and that was slim and none and none just hopped a bus out of town.

What, Pacelli may not earn the fees he craves? Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Maybe secretly he will blame Mignini or Comodi or whoever it was who persuaded him to represent Lumumba and steer Lumumba's anger and financial claims away from the PLE towards Knox.

 

[Strozzi]

If Mignini is ultimately indicted and struck off for abuse of office, I daresay the TV networks will be falling over themselves to screen documentaries like this. Until and unless that happens, he still seems to have considerable powers to stop any such film from getting any kind of exposure.

I doubt Mignini could block or win damages against a documentary prepared in the U.S. that is made using open source information - family videos, news videos, court transcripts, tabloid headlines, interviews that Mignini gave to the media, people stating what they heard Comodi blurt out spontaneously in the courtroom when the witness was kicked out by the judge, etc. A documentary with a narrative in English could then be translated into Italian and made accessible to all literate Italians who have internet access.

 

[Mary_H]

i wonder how much this will cost Italy when the case is finally decided in faor of the defendants in the European Court of Human Rights. I believe that not only are the two defendants owed many millions, but each of their family member who was denied the enjoyment of their familily relationship should sue for millions of Euros, and the families should recover of all costs. Knox's three younger sisters grew up without the companionship of their sister Amanda and childhood happiness due to errors and cruel lies made by the PLE.

It would be nice if the Kerchers would sue, too. They are going to be facing some massive humiliation eventually.

 

[Strozzi]

While I agree with the broad tone of your post, I disagree about the part related to the timing of the ECHR appeal, for the following reasons:

1) There is zero chance that Knox will get even the smallest indication that her ECHR appeal has merit before the outcome of the Nencini appeal, and it's also highly unlikely that she would get any such indication before an SC ratification of the Nencini verdicts. The ECHR has a humungous case backlog. Therefore, all that the Nencini court and the SC will know is that Knox has filed an ECHR appeal. Nothing more than that. Therefore I find it hard to see how that would constitute any sort of game-changing situation to Nencini or the SC.

2) In my opinion, Knox would probably be better off waiting until she knows whether or not she's going to want to appeal to the ECHR on further convictions (i.e. depending on the outcome of Nencini and the SC ratification). In my mind, a single appeal would make more sense. Obviously, Knox must be hoping that she'll ultimately be acquitted on all the other charges, and that therefore there will be no further need to appeal to ECHR. But still........

3) The aggravation part of the criminal slander conviction is still being assessed. The conviction is therefore not even strictly final yet. And I wonder whether the Nencini court and/or the SC might be slightly annoyed that an ECHR appeal is being lodged when one element of the offence is still under adjudication.


On top of that, I would take factual issue on your second sentence. What you wrote is only true if they accept the aggravation factor for the criminal slander. The aggravating factor - which is being retried in Nencini's court - is that Knox knew Lumumba to be innocent when she accused him (with the direct implication being that she could only know he was innocent because she herself was involved in the murder and therefore knew Lumumba wasn't there). If the aggravating factor isn't added by Nencini, then it's perfectly allowable for Nencini to acquit on the murder charges and convicting on non-aggravated criminal slander.

My interpretation of the police nighttime interrogaton of Knox is that the police steered the conversation and led her to believe that the person to whom she sent the text message is the killer. In other words, the police told her directly or indirectly that "he is the killer". That caused Knox to become frightened of Lumumba and believe that Lumumba killed Meredith. Knox could not remember being there and denied being there, but between shouting police officers, two hits from behind, and the interpreter telling her that she was there but not remembering it due to trauma, Knox followed the police's story and answered questions such as "what would you have heard?" "Nothing". "Why nothing?" "I would have covered my ears."

The judges on the European Court of Human Rights are not going to like what they learn about the midnight interrogation. They are not going to believe that the interrogation was proper, with tea and cookies.

 

[Bill Williams]

My interpretation of the police nighttime interrogaton of Knox is that the police steered the conversation and led her to believe that the person to whom she sent the text message is the killer. In other words, the police told her directly or indirectly that "he is the killer". That caused Knox to become frightened of Lumumba and believe that Lumumba killed Meredith. Knox could not remember being there and denied being there, but between shouting police officers, two hits from behind, and the interpreter telling her that she was there but not remembering it due to trauma, Knox followed the police's story and answered questions such as "what would you have heard?" "Nothing". "Why nothing?" "I would have covered my ears."

The judges on the European Court of Human Rights are not going to like what they learn about the midnight interrogation. They are not going to believe that the interrogation was proper, with tea and cookies.

Of course, releasing the interrogation tapes would settle this one way or another!

 

[acbytesla]

I doubt Mignini could block or win damages against a documentary prepared in the U.S. that is made using open source information - family videos, news videos, court transcripts, tabloid headlines, interviews that Mignini gave to the media, people stating what they heard Comodi blurt out spontaneously in the courtroom when the witness was kicked out by the judge, etc. A documentary with a narrative in English could then be translated into Italian and made accessible to all literate Italians who have internet access.

No he couldn't. He would one have to press his case in the US. Winning a libel or slander case in the US is extremely difficult. He would have to demonstrate "absence of malice" and he wouldn't be able to.

The U.S. Supreme Court in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan ruled that a profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials." Brennan maintained that erroneous statements are inevitable in free debate and must be protected if freedom of expression is to have the "breathing space" it needs to survive. As long as the press has an "absence of malice," public officials are barred from recovering damages for the publication of false statements about them.

The only chance for Mignini is if he could prove "reckless disregard" of the facts, and I can't see that. Plus he would be unpopular walking into a US court given the opinions widely held in the US on this case.

 

[RandyN]

Most estimates are that it costs around $20,000-30,000 to take a case to the ECHR. Not cheap, but in the context of Knox's total legal bill, not a massive extra burden.

Incidentally, on timing issues, I note that 25th November is exactly on an 8-month limit starting from the date (26th March) that the SC affirmed the criminal slander conviction. I was under the impression that there was a 6-month limit on application to the ECHR, but perhaps either this has changed or Knox's team got an extra two months' dispensation.

LOL...really. One would expect that the ECOHR is well versed on the Italian legal system.

I'm guessing... since Italy holds the most violations of ANYBODY for failure to provide the human right to a speedy trial that they would never put a time limit on any matter coming out of Italy. Especially since the Italians are likely to work that system the same way they dog their own.

I understand the prosecution biggest argument today involved the fact that the SC overturned the appeal decision and that that therefore is all the evidence necessary to re-convict. Really really...

I know I pick on the Italians but in reality I feel no animosity towards Italians in general...I am of Italian ancestry...but they are making that almost impossible to admit.

It is downright painful to see supposed educated honest men put forth such illogical stupid conclusions... which say far more about them than it could ever say about the case. And yet they continue to do this time after time as if you say 10 impossible and stupid things then you get to put innocent people in jail forever. That is stupid...hell its insane. And the whole system seems capable of joining this unholy judicial mafia without a snicker...

How do they keep the straight faces? I keep waiting for someone to bust up and say oh hahaha...we sure had you going there right... I bet you thought we were serious about all the ridiculous baseless conclusions we try to make...just fooling...sorry.

 

[MichaelB]

Lumumba's debt to Pacelli is 100,000 euros which he's never paid and probably couldn't afford to pay. It was in an article at the start of the trial.

 

[RandyN]

That really has to annoy the hell out of Pacelli. It not only means that he's going to have wait to get paid, but that he is NEVER going to get paid. This is a case that is EASY to win in front of the ECHR and I'm sure Pacelli knows that. Now that Knox has invested the money to take the case to the ECHR, it eliminates any chance of a settlement for PL.

Pacelli had two chances left to win any money and that was slim and none and none just hopped a bus out of town.

I bet Lumumba is regretting the day he jumped on Mignini's lunatic train. He could have and should have sued Italy and the Italian police for what they did to him. Instead Mignini pressured him to stop complaining about police brutality and for Italy failing to protect his rights by providing him with a lawyer after his arrest.

How are these fundamental rights written into Italian law so easily ignored by apparently the whole Italian judicial farce...err system? Fundamental rights. How? Why?

Lumumba is about to be visited by a karma kick in the kool O. Good for him...he could have been a sympathetic actor...instead he chose to be a prick.

NO SOUP FOR YOU...NEXT!!!!

 

[RandyN]

It would be nice if the Kerchers would sue, too. They are going to be facing some massive humiliation eventually.

The Kerchers have already sued. EHHHHH. No one remains that stupid and blind for that long no matter how aggrieved...

They must now also face karma...I doubt humiliation is a concern of theirs. Their representation appears to be gunning for money...he works at their behest. Nothing dignified or even silent out of these people for those who followed the case closely.

So....NO SOUP FOR YOU...NEXT!!!

 

[RandyN]

That is the supreme irony of the prosecution/high court stance on this. They say the evidence must be examined as a whole to reveal the story it tells, rather than having its value scrutinized piece by piece. Fair enough - except they cannot come up with a plausible story and timeline. Maybe Meredith was killed before 10 pm, or maybe it was after midnight, but hey, Curatolo says he saw Amanda/Raffaele so surely that must mean something... and don't forget the knife... that must mean Amanda plunged it into Meredith's throat, although why she would have had this knife in her possession at the cottage is baffling... and the bra fastener... it shows Raffaele was in the room, although we don't know why... choice of evil and all that.
Meanwhile the defense long ago came up with a completely plausible scenario that fits all of the meaningful and reliable evidence, and is in fact what happened that night.

I pick on the defense...fact is I think these are great guys and girls. Wonderful people who are warm and kind and smart...except they are not defense lawyers in a murder trial. They are all out of their depth and this bra clasp thing is just one small example of why I criticize them for not doing a good job.

If the prosecution contends that the bra clasp is evidence of RS involvement then where is the defense demanding an explanation as to how RS placed this DNA there while in this room?

Where is the corroborating evidence? Or did he fly or float in that room?

It is contamination because... look here at this video...Stefanoni has on clearly dirty gloves and she passes the clasp back and forth between her and some other idiot without his mask covering his face. Meanwhile nothing indicates that anyone other than RG was inside this room.

Where is RS footprints? Fingerprints? DNA? Hair? Anything at all that was deposited while he was touching this bra clasp. Where? Where is it? Cleaned? Nonsense...who can clean invisible DNA, faint tracks or invisible fingerprints meanwhile leaving numerous samples of RG traces...how could one distinguish between RG prints and RS prints? Can anyone look at a finger print and say..."Oh that is mine...clean it now." Stupid. Ridiculous. Stop wasting the courts time and reputation by insulting it with such nonsense...where is your proof? Where is your evidence that adds up to something? Oh you don't have that? How nice.

I guess we will allow this conviction to go forward based on baseless speculation and probability although the probability is unlikely and speculation is absurd.

Take each item of "evidence" and it doesn't add up or lump it all together and it still does not add up. So the only conclusion that can safely be made is that nothing is certain beyond a reasonable doubt either separately or taken together...

I dont see what point LJ was trying to make about waiting to file a larger case with the ECOHR. The time limits appear clear. I wouldn't count on anything coming from any judicial authority from Italy. They have proved that they are incompetent from the lowest level all the way to the top...the very definition of simple minded...the ISC.

Second guessing if this court is deciding anything about the calunia would be foolish. The SC ruled the matter complete and confirmed it. Who cares what this court decides...the deadline must be met. This court will not be settled until after that 6 month deadline has passed. Screw that! File it in pieces and they can put it together as the stupid decisions come in...which in Italy could be 10 years...even more.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I pick on the defense...fact is I think these are great guys and girls. Wonderful people who are warm and kind and smart...except they are not defense lawyers in a murder trial. They are all out of their depth and this bra clasp thing is just one small example of why I criticize them for not doing a good job.

If the prosecution contends that the bra clasp is evidence of RS involvement then where is the defense demanding an explanation as to how RS placed this DNA there while in this room?

Where is the corroborating evidence? Or did he fly or float in that room?

It is contamination because... look here at this video...Stefanoni has on clearly dirty gloves and she passes the clasp back and forth between her and some other idiot without his mask covering his face. Meanwhile nothing indicates that anyone other than RG was inside this room.

Don't you think the defense has pointed this out again and again?

The problem is that the court won't face facts. They dismiss published guidelines and expert consensus on how DNA evidence should be handled. The Supreme Court went as far as to deny the condition of the crime scene as shown in the police video, because court documents say otherwise.

What can any lawyer do against a court system that operates this way?

 

[LondonJohn]

My interpretation of the police nighttime interrogaton of Knox is that the police steered the conversation and led her to believe that the person to whom she sent the text message is the killer. In other words, the police told her directly or indirectly that "he is the killer". That caused Knox to become frightened of Lumumba and believe that Lumumba killed Meredith. Knox could not remember being there and denied being there, but between shouting police officers, two hits from behind, and the interpreter telling her that she was there but not remembering it due to trauma, Knox followed the police's story and answered questions such as "what would you have heard?" "Nothing". "Why nothing?" "I would have covered my ears."

The judges on the European Court of Human Rights are not going to like what they learn about the midnight interrogation. They are not going to believe that the interrogation was proper, with tea and cookies.

I absolutely agree. All the evidence supports this version of events. What's more, the evidence tends to firmly contradict the prosecution version of events - that the police were casually inquiring about Lumumba when Knox suddenly blurted out "He did it! He's a nasty man!".

Just to recap, I consider there to be several crucial pieces of evidence pointing at coercion. Firstly, there's the fact that the police immediately took Knox's "see you later" text as an indication that Knox and Lumumba were fixing up a meeting for later that same evening. Second, there's the evidence of interpreter Donnino, in which she made explicit reference to coaching Knox to "remember" the traumatic memory of Lumumba murdering Meredith. Thirdly, there's the infamous De Felice statement.

And these are hard, incontrovertible pieces of evidence. They all point in only one way: that Knox was coerced into "confirming" a version of events that the police/PM already thought they "knew". When you add into that Knox's version of events (which, granted, one could consider potentially biased) and Knox's subsequent written and verbal communications (all of which clearly tend to support a coercion scenario), I believe that any reasonable person would have to draw the conclusion that Knox was indeed improperly coerced that night in then Perugia police HQ.

 

[RWVBWL]

He wasn't Rudy...

Rudy almost collided with a woman and her escort as Rudy was fleeing the scene. Does anyone recall what time that happened?

Machiavelli appears to believe that the black man that Amanda saw and described as "handsome" must be Rudy because there are so few black men in that neighborhood. Does the same logic apply that the black man running up the steps from the murder scene must be Rudy on the basis that "there are so few black men in that neighborhood"?

The witness (Alessandra Formica) took the stand and said the person who she saw was not Guede.

She is a credible witness. She was in the company of someone else who also saw this person. She also saw the people with the broken-down car. She went to the police immediately.

The timing wasn't right for this person to have been Guede. It was around 10:30, well after Guede would have fled the scene, after the time when Meredith's phone received a text message from a tower that does not usually serve the cottage.

I think it's a red herring. But it may explain why the police seem to have been looking for a black suspect from the outset, before the physical evidence led them to Guede.

Once again a photo will help give an interested person a clearer perspective of what happened that night.

In this case Miss Formica says in court that it was not Rudy Guede she saw that night on the stairway.

Here's a photo of that stairway:



And another link for ya,
from a post on March 26, 2009,
He wasn't Rudy.
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182429/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html


I emailed FS years ago,
he told me that Miss Formica came forward of her own free will shortly after Miss Kercher's murder,
that she did not come forward months later at the behest of a newspaper journalist after 1st telling police investigators that he/she saw nothing, as Toto the drug using+drug dealing bum and Marco the store owner did...