Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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The fact remains that I (and West and Briske) are including the vegetative uptake (123 PgC/yr) and the vegetative emission (118 PgC/yr), i.e. both sides of the cycle.

So you are backing off your earlier claim? :boxedin: ;)

Tripling a number that does not appear in the article like 123 PgC/yr is an absurdity :D!

I will emphasize this, Red Baron Farms: The amount of carbon taken up by vegetation is about 2.6 Pg per year. It is not 123 PgC/yr.

Oh and BTW I wrote that wikipedia article you quoted from, including the criticism section. So yeah, I am just a little bit familiar with it and the references.:D
 
Following the analysis I started in post #532 on Teague et al, here the non-hedonistic review:

In that paper there's no comparison or "before and after" photos. Three trios of neighbouring ranches (not always, really) were selected with each ranch in every trio practising a different grazing technique: heavy continuous grazing, light continuous grazing and multi-paddock (up to 41 camps). It was assured the same technique had been used during at least 9 years previous to the beginning of the study. Some ungrazed fields were selected in the same areas for the sake of comparison.

To be brief: the study is a photograph, not a study during a certain period. Indicators have better values in rotational grazing. Among those indicators is the organic matter in the soil.

Table 6 shows soil organic matter mean values for each technique (but strangely no range is shown). The first faux pas in #532 was mixing up organic carbon with organic matter: the latter is shown in the table so soil organic carbon is 58% of that. I will stretch to the 90-100 cm layer the values for a depth of 60-90cm in order to get the soil organic carbon according to each technique:

heavy continuous grazing: 1.4% of carbon (25 kg of C/m2)
light continuous grazing: 1.79% of carbon (32 kg of C/m2)
multi-paddock: 2% of carbon (36 kg of C/m2)
graze exclosure: 2.01% of carbon (36 kg of C/m2)

What would promote jumping to the conclusion that you sequestrate in nine years 11 kg of C/m2 (12 T/ha-yr) just by changing from heavy continuous grazing to multi-paddock. It is implied that the yield is constant.

But wait a minute, where does this come from? First of all, we have overgrazed ranches and skilfully managed ranches with a range from 25 to 36 Kg of carbon / m2 in the first metre of soil. Then, why is the Soil Survey Division of the Natural Resources Conservation Service at U.S. Department of Agriculture saying otherwise? Here is the soil organic carbon map for the region (the three counties in the study are shown - click on the image for a larger version):



According to that, the soils in those countries have and average from 8 to 16 kg of carbon for square metre. Why the difference? If % of organic matter is something different than "grams of organic matter by each 100 grams of soil" as it's the standard in the trade, why there's no clarification? Maybe because the paper doesn't point to organic carbon but other indicators of soil health and proxies of productivity.

On the other hand the change from one to another point doesn't take nine years. The study says that they assured the same technique was used during at least the last nine years, and that may imply that some farmer changed from heavy to light continuous grazing -because he saw his soil going to the dogs- while the multi-paddock dudes were doing that for two generations. Who knows? No other data is provided.

On top of that, there's an explanation of the strict mechanism of selling cattle from the multi-paddocks the very moment low growing conditions or drought show. No explanation is given about what they do in the continuous-grazing ranches. Isn't the rotational grazing a technique that fosters anticipating management? Isn't it possible that the ranches using such primitive techniques as continuous grazing only sell cattle when the animals start to lose weight? The very values in tables 1 and 8 give a hint: heavy continuous and multi-paddock are shown with the same stocking rate (270 pounds of cattle per hectare) but having a huge difference in standing crop biomass (some 70% more in multi-paddock). How is this possible? Isn't being showed a heavy overgrazing for the sake of a dramatic comparison?

The important fact is how those soil analysis come to be the way they are. There's a simple reason to do continuous grazing: having less fences, less watering places and places for roundup, and less workers; less investment and less fixed expenses, in short. That makes me think that such investments rarely appear overnight, and farmers rarely have epiphanies and change their uses overnight either. Within the ranches analysed those doing multi-paddock most probably evolved along decades from a light continuous grazing into a more professional rotational grazing, and it's almost impossible that ranches doing heavy overgrazing changed overnight, got a loan and implemented rotational grazing overnight to show such spectacular improvements in a period of nine years. If that was the case, I am sure it would had been explicitly expressed in the paper.

On the other hand, the soil sampling is explained in detail, but there's a trick: they selected points far 200 m from the watering places to avoid the overgrazed and overdunged soils close to them. But in multi-padock (in some case the paddocks were just 8 hectares big) that is very far from the watering place, so there are differences. They declared they let the professional sampler to select the places to make the soil analysis, and that is good, but it puts more variability into the study.

Did I say that the ranches included slopes? In a context of overgrazing, part of the organic matter of your land is probably to end up in your neighbour's. In a context of sustainability, you are probably to get organic matter from your neighbour uphill, if he uses overgrazing.

The final reality check is comparing the induced inference of gaining 11T of carbon per hectare and year with the significantly lesser 4.68T/ha-yr of standing crop biomass in multi-paddock (table 8). Where would that carbon come from? Would it be a problem of publication? After all the counties are shown to be around 33°W and 98°N! and that is a bit above the northern lights next to Santa.

These are just a few comments about what the paper does say and doesn't really imply. The paper was never intended as a way to show how much carbon can be sequestered into soils. Doesn't surprise anybody that productivity itself -ultimately, farming is a commercial activity- is not analysed?

The paper can be compared to this:

Three families were analysed. One family earned 20k a year and spent 30k, so nine years later they are indebted 90k . Another family earned 30k a year and spent 30k so they are out of new debts. The intelligent family earned 40k a year and spent 30k so they have savings of 90k. These savings-debts of 180k in nine years are soil organic carbon. Conclusion: Waste not, want not.
 
And the real world questions that we need to think about
  • If we convert grasslands to only grazing then what will we do with the glut of cattle?
    Just kill them and plough them into the soil?
  • If we convert grasslands to only grazing then what will we do about the loss of corn, wheat, soybean, etc. from farmed grasslands?
    Human beings also eat corn, wheat, soybean, etc.
  • How would it be possible to convert farmers from arable use of grasslands to grazing when the current economics favor crops?
  • How would it be politically possible to get many countries around the world to do this?
    Current agreements do not even enforce carbon emissions, e.g. a few days ago Japan Bails Out on CO2 Emissions Target.
From the comments on RealClimate I gather Savory says we have to give up burning fossil-fuels for his "solution" to work, which also isn't going to happen.

It's clear that Savory has airily added reversal of climate change to the benefits of his system simply for the publicity it garners, not because he's run the numbers and discovered that happy fact.

I would say "let it go ..." but I know that's not in your nature, and Red Baron Farms certainly isn't going to. :rolleyes:
 
I would say "let it go ..." but I know that's not in your nature, and Red Baron Farms certainly isn't going to. :rolleyes:

Certainly not, as he has domesticated two articles in Wikipedia (one of them after arguing there against its deletion) disconnected with versions in other languages, while the real topics like grazing systems and soil carbon sequestration remain underdeveloped. The rotational grazings (the old ones, the usual ones all around the world, the ones that became intensive 60 years ago, the ones which management is taught in universities in every corner of the World) have only a 33-word long paragraph in its English version of Wikipedia.

Meanwhile there's abundant specialized literature about the topic and about our topic everything points in the same direction: a report of British Soil Association cites that if agriculture were globally converted into best sustainable practices this could potentially offset 11% of global GHG emissions each year for at least 20 years.

And FAO tells -in the context of 2009 Report Food Security and Agricultural Mitigation in Developing Countries: Options for Capturing Synergies- that «Nearly 90 percent of the technical mitigation potential of agriculture comes from soil carbon sequestration. These options involve increasing the levels of organic matter, of which carbon is the main component, in soil. This can translate into better plant nutrient content, increased water retention capacity and better structure, eventually leading to higher yields and greater resilience. Agricultural mitigation options that sequester carbon can include: low tillage, utilizing residues for composting or mulching, use of perennial crops to cover soil, re-seeding or improving grazing management on grasslands

Within that technical report it is said "The technical potential for mitigation options in agriculture by 2030, considering all gases, is estimated to be between 4 500 (Caldeira et al. 2004) and 6 000 Mt CO2e/year (Smith et al. 2008).", which means 1 to 1.35 GT of carbon for an estimated emission of 12.7 GT, that is, about 10%.

Serious information along these lines -in English- immediately piles up once one stops following any lead or suggestion Red Baron Farms gives and a second after one googles the proper notions, evidence springs up like mushrooms after the rain in a highly-organic forest.

After a thousand posts, it is now my understanding that Red Baron Farms' failure to provide what he has been asked so many times, that is, papers substantiating his suggestions about the decisive role of holistic grazing and similar techniques in radically changing the outlook of the climate change problems doesn't come from ignorance but willing disregard of the real potentiality of what he proposes, as realizing that makes promotion of the new-age coated holistic parafernalia a clear off-topic in this thread, verging the classic definition of spam.
 
Methane again

....did not think the scale was of concern but this raises the issue. Older article but had not seen it and combined with the latest info out of the article thought I would explore the implications

in the case of the East Siberian Shelf (ESS), shallow sediments have not been considered a methane source to the hydrosphere or atmosphere because seabed permafrost (defined as sediments with a 2-year mean temperature below 0 ̊C), which is considered to underlay most of the ESS, acts as an impermeable lid, preventing methane escape. However, our recent data showed extreme methane supersaturation of surface water, implying high sea-to-air fluxes.
Extremely high concentrations of methane (up to 8 ppm) in the atmospheric layer above the sea surface along with anomalously high concentrations of dissolved methane in the water column (up to 560 nM, or 12000% of super saturation), reg- istered during a summertime cruise over the ESS in September 2005, were analyzed together with available data obtained during previous and subsequent expeditions to distinguish between possible methane sources of different origin, potential, and mo- bility. Using indirect evidence it was shown that one such source may be highly poten-

tial and extremely mobile shallow methane hydrates, whose stability zone is seabed permafrost-related and could be disturbed upon permafrost development, degradation, and thawing. Further immobilization of stored methane could cause abrupt methane release and unpredictable climatic consequences.
The total area of submarine permafrost within the Siberian Arctic shelf is estimated to be more than one and half million square kilometers. Amount of methane hydrate deposited beneath and/or within submarine relic permafrost is estimated to be at least 540 Gt. Amount of free gas, accumulated beneath the hydrate deposits, is expected to be about 2/3 of the amount of hydrates or 360 Gt. Additionally as much as 500 Gt of carbon could be stored within as minimum as a 25 m-thick permafrost body of this type. The total value of ESS carbon pool is, thus, not less than 1,400 Gt of carbon. Since the area of geological disjunctives (fault zones, tectonically and seismically active areas) within the Siberian Arctic shelf composes not less than 1-2% of the total area and area of open taliks (area of melt through permafrost), acting as a pathway for methane escape within the Siberian Arctic shelf reaches up to 5-10% of the total area, we consider release of up to 50 Gt of predicted amount of hydrate storage as highly possible for abrupt release at any time.

is that a viable number and what is abrupt?

http://meetings.copernicus.org/www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU2008/01526/EGU2008-A-01526.pdf

Updated to 2013 ....

Methane Levels going through the Roof
On November 9, 2013, methane readings well over 2600 ppb were recorded at multiple altitudes, as illustrated by the image below.

On November 9, 2013, p.m., methane readings were recorded as high as 2662 parts per billion (ppb), at 586 millibars (mb) pressure, which corresponds with an altitude of 14384.6 feet or 4384.4 meters.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UbZ6dnzXBa8/UoCrr7dAUcI/AAAAAAAAL38/UfuwSUO1rPE/s640/November-9-2013.jpg

Where did these high levels occur? Methane levels were low on the southern hemisphere and, while there were some areas with high readings over North America and Asia, there were no areas as wide and bright yellow as over the Arctic Ocean (the color yellow indicating readings of 1950 ppb and higher on above map).

Really my question is how much impact could this have in decade time frame and what in the first article do you think they are considering "abrupt"
 
Some comments:

I tend to distrust texts saying "it's estimated to be at least 540 GT" as this kind of estimations rarely come as thresholds.

540 GT of methane hydrates and again "not less than" 1400 GT of Carbon. Oh, gosh, there is methane and there is carbon too! (where do they think the methane comes from? :rolleyes:)

540 GT of clathrates are not 540 GT of methane. They are "just" 70 GT of methane.

ppb is not necessarily ppbv, and if some kind of sloppiness is involved it could've not ended just in units.

Actual methane concentration on 45°N at see level is about 1.9 ppmv. That concentration is known to be higher in the cold season, at higher latitude and at higher altitude, though a 2.6 value is pretty high yet from an anecdotal point of view ...

Those 50 GT of "jumpy" hydrates imply "just" 6.5 GT of methane. Total current content of methane in the whole terrestrial atmosphere is 5.3 GT, so in case such abrupt irruption of methane occurred abruptly in such an abrupt manner, methane concentration would probably jump to an planetary average of 4 ppbv two years later.

The incremental radiative forcing of such abrupt abruption from the bowels of the see once irrupted and homogenized in the atmosphere is about 0.7 W/m2 which can be compared with the radiative forcing of 2.3 so far (1.02 from the additional methane already in the atmosphere), it suggests maybe some 0.4°C of warming would be gotten provided a century has passed and every year some additional 500 MT of methane are released to refill that of the abrupt burst which deteriorates (some 50 GT of methane in a century additional to that initial 6.5 GT in the burst)

To take 50 GT of clathrates (55 cubic kilometres) and convert them into 43 cubic kilometres of water and 9300 cubic kilometres of atmospheric methane requires mechanical work against at least the normal atmospheric pressure, so at least -yes, at least, for the right reason now- 9 . 1017 Joules are needed. That is the energy of an earthquake of 8.75 in the good o'le Richter scale, or some 200 MT of TNT, that is, some 12,000 Hiroshima atomic bombs. What is going to provide such energy and focus it exclusively to get an "abrupt" event? [Oh, yes! Physics, that nasty b**** that interposes when one wants to write a Hollywoodesque plot)

Then, if the event is not such an abrupt one like they told, and I assure you 9,300 cubic kilometres of methane are difficult to hide -though they're transparent-, why don't you simply go there and light a match? (I'll wait here patiently for you to come back). If you dare, you can exploit the methane. If the "abrupt" event lasted one year you would have a flow of methane of 10,000,000 million cubic feet per second, that is like having a bunch of fountains throwing upwards the discharge of two Amazon Rivers. Would you fail to notice where it is happening? Again, take your lighter and start canoeing. That the methane is "dissolved" in sea water supersaturating it, it's not a problem at all, just go there and pat the waters strongly, and you will experience what happened to those poor Africans living next to the lake getting the carbonated water.

I had other comments, but I forgot ... and more calculations, like taking the abrupt methane and comparing with sea water, supersaturation and ocean chemistry is interesting, but I'll pass ... tired, sorry.

Why can't I stop finding these methane catastrophes intellectually related to happy cows grazing and saving the world?

That doesn't mean that clathrates are of no interest to our topic, but I've found nothing more than epistemological hedonism in the way they publicly deal with that in internet venues.
 
that is, some 12,000 Hiroshima atomic bombs.

good over view but the mechanical conversion is actually peanuts in terms of the energy required given the scale of the region....

As I mentioned the difficulty lies in "abrupt" which could easily be over a year or two and we're currently applying about a million hiroshima's annually to Greenland just to convert 100 cu km of glacier to melt water by way of fossil carbon retaining energy in the atmosphere.

The conversion of clathrate gigatonne to actual methane release tho is significant in reducing the impact. Still that pulse would be significant and as mentioned in the article some risk of a feedback cycle occurring each melt season.

The Arctic is still not well accounted for in the models and this is one additional factor which seems to be developing rather quickly given the increases in methane release across the region as shown in the 2013 article.
While the methane release may be relatively small compared to C02, it's impact as a GHG is outsized and it's not subject to any method if mitigation in the case of clathrates tho some studies show controlling methane ( cow farts for instance ) may me more effective than trying to reduce CO2 as the 20xleverage in the near term is beneficial in slowing warming and represents a smaller scale to deal with than the GHG equivalent in C02.

on-carbon dioxide (CO2) greenhouse gases, such as methane, nitrous oxide, and fluorinated greenhouse gases, are significant contributors to climate change. In some cases, reducing non-CO2 emissions can have a more rapid effect on the climate and be more cost-effective than reducing CO2 emissions.

http://epa.gov/climatechange/EPAactivities/economics/nonco2mitigation.html

So while we may not be able to do much about the clathrate melt, managing and assessing the impact of methane can be useful.

I'd not ding him so much for "estimates".....there would be no practical way of a accurate number given the scale of the region. He should have shown the clathrate melt to methane release conversion tho.
 
Meanwhile there's abundant specialized literature about the topic and about our topic everything points in the same direction: a report of British Soil Association cites that if agriculture were globally converted into best sustainable practices this could potentially offset 11% of global GHG emissions each year for at least 20 years.
Now that I find credible (and greatly to be desired, not just because of emissions). Exaggerated claims simply obscure the message.
 
Yup - if that were combined with the associated area of methane/livestock feed mitigation would make a bit of a dent.
What IS happening in the offset arena these days?
 
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good over view but the mechanical conversion is actually peanuts in terms of the energy required given the scale of the region....

As I mentioned the difficulty lies in "abrupt" which could easily be over a year or two and we're currently applying about a million hiroshima's annually to Greenland just to convert 100 cu km of glacier to melt water by way of fossil carbon retaining energy in the atmosphere.

I got it: as Nature is massive let indulge ourselves in exaggeration. We cannot exaggerate that global warming will grow traditional heavy 2-inch storms covering one million square miles into 10-inch deluge covering five million square miles per event because nobody will believe us. But it looks somebody thinks that they can exaggerate the 25 MT of methane yearly released by the Arctic every year -admittedly in the raise- into "an abrupt pulse" covering vast areas and thick layers in a short period because the IPCC overlooked this and they discovered the next amazing menace about to reach us :rolleyes:.

The conversion of clathrate gigatonne to actual methane release tho is significant in reducing the impact. Still that pulse would be significant and as mentioned in the article some risk of a feedback cycle occurring each melt season.

I rather say it isn't happening by simple observation of methane concentrations and the yearly cycle they show. If not, please offer us an explanation about how a pulse is expected yet to date we continue to observe the same seasonal variations on a general upwards trend. If I've not been clear enough, explain why there's a general pulse incubating in a humongous area while there's no observation about a dozen isolated sub-areas producing a sub-pulse. Why a "big one" without any foreshock? Wait, we have pulses every year! They start and stop quickly fostered by local conditions.

Here, methane concentrations for Mauna Loa (Hawaii) and Barrow (Alaska), ending a few days ago (adjusted to compare 2012 and 2013 together):





What strange events do you see but the yearly variation on the long term upwards trend plus non linear Arctic contributions?



Do I need to go on doing calculations you and others should do before suggesting -or even daring to suspect- there's some kind of frozen menace besetting us?

A one megaton methane burst in some localized region, that is some 1.5 cubic kilometres of methane, can shoot 100 ppbv up atmospheric methane of 15 million of cubic kilometres of atmosphere, that is a polar area of 2 million square kilometres all up to the end of the troposphere in summer or a polar area of more than 3 million square kilometres up to the end of the troposphere in winter, capisci? And an estimated of 25 MT a year of methane -an average of 0.5MT a week, with peaks during the beginning of the autumn- comes now from the Arctic region. Do you have any problem with concentrations of a lighter-than-average gas peaking at great altitude during short periods? Is it something extraordinary? Is it a harbinger of death? :rolleyes:

C'mon, let's stop trying to squeeze any event we don't fully understand into a menacing story. Everybody better learns how the planet works before starting fantasizing about out of the main stream theories. The clathrate gun hypothesis or the shutdown of the Thermohaline Circulation are not real current menaces just because "they've happened before" the same way assorted conspiracy theories are not real because some kind of conspiracies are known to have happened before.

The Arctic is still not well accounted for in the models and this is one additional factor which seems to be developing rather quickly given the increases in methane release across the region as shown in the 2013 article.

Same again, the unknown part of the chart is depicted full of marine monsters.

While the methane release may be relatively small compared to C02, it's impact as a GHG is outsized and it's not subject to any method if mitigation in the case of clathrates tho some studies show controlling methane ( cow farts for instance )...

cow belches ... know the planet, and her critters ;)

...may me more effective than trying to reduce CO2 as the 20xleverage in the near term is beneficial in slowing warming and represents a smaller scale to deal with than the GHG equivalent in C02.

on-carbon dioxide (CO2) greenhouse gases, such as methane, nitrous oxide, and fluorinated greenhouse gases, are significant contributors to climate change. In some cases, reducing non-CO2 emissions can have a more rapid effect on the climate and be more cost-effective than reducing CO2 emissions.
http://epa.gov/climatechange/EPAactivities/economics/nonco2mitigation.html

So while we may not be able to do much about the clathrate melt, managing and assessing the impact of methane can be useful.

It's effective if you can ignite a methane burst or control fracking or coal mining release of methane (the increment since 2007 has been attributed mostly to these three causes, with high latitude methane in a comfortable third place).

I'd not ding him so much for "estimates".....there would be no practical way of a accurate number given the scale of the region. He should have shown the clathrate melt to methane release conversion tho.

No sure what you're talking about here...
 
Same again, the unknown part of the chart is depicted full of marine monsters.

I take your point, and merely note that placing el dorado or the fountain of youth in such places is equally naive.

Back of the envelop calculations are valuable, as long as they are only taken as such. Ideally we can sort out rough probabilities both of such monsters and of fountains, but how to proceed rationally in the mean time when we cannot is a question of personal attitude towards risk, no?
 
That would be absolutely right in a context of evenly reaching information. The problem here is the farther the observer is from the expertise, (the greater/the lesser) the risk perceived, up to the verge of (panic/denial). Think of the real knowledge of the plethora of denialists that once these threads gave shelter to and how far their knowledge was from what is necessary to start to encompass and even frame this global warming business.

I'm saying all this because I perceive the escalator is about to climb up an additional step and I don't want to deal with a panicky outburst of what-ifs led by "epistemological hedonism towards terror" which is not better than "epistemological hedonism towards denial" or "towards humus will save us" or whatever. Yet, I am willing to concede Arctic methane outbursts would grow from 25 to 100 MT a year, the same time frame China CO2 emissions would grow from 7 GT to 10 GT, with worse effects, without that meaning that a methane pulse will follow to provide the deserved ending the prophets doomed, the myths proclaimed, the bards sung and the fables foreseen.
 
This is definitely not my area of expertise. I do not know all the literature so I have some questions.

Over the last 400k years we have had four spikes of CO2 and CH4. We are currently in one of those spikes from a nadir a few hundred years ago. These spikes are relatively periodic in the grand scheme of things and are temporized via a principle (whose name I've forgotten) which tends to self regulate the variables.

Currently we are around 400 ppm for CO2 and 1800 ppb for methane which is much higher than we know in that time interval. CO2 levels are actually historically low right now if I understand correctly with levels less than 200 being problematic. CO2 levels have been much higher in the past. Methane levels have mirrored CO2 rises and falls in the main but are now historically high.

co2-levels-over-time.jpg


As you can see CO2 levels are very low compared the those over the last 3 billion years. You can also see we are in a cool period.

My questions are:

1. In the long run are CO2 levels around 400-500 a safer level for us and better for growing crops considering levels of <150 PPM are dangerous for plant life?

2. If CO2 levels remain in the 400-500 range how much more rise in methane levels would be necessary to create significant problems beyond what the current warming trend would normally cause. (assuming there is a reasonable answer)

3. What are the possibilities we will see changes in the ocean's acidity that would be problematic? Does this pose the greatest risk to the planet's food chain?

Thanks.
 
1. In the long run are CO2 levels around 400-500 a safer level for us and better for growing crops considering levels of <150 PPM are dangerous for plant life?
Farmers are famous for complaining, but I've never heard of one saying his crops are starved of them. They complain about rain (too much, too little, wrong time), badgers, weeds, ramblers - but not CO2. That's a red herring. Safest for us is the climate our civilisation grew up in.

2. If CO2 levels remain in the 400-500 range how much more rise in methane levels would be necessary to create significant problems beyond what the current warming trend would normally cause. (assuming there is a reasonable answer)
If CO2 levels stabilise there'll be no "current warming trend" once the climate reaches equilibrium. Any extra methane at all would be a bad idea, frankly, since equilibrium at 4-500ppm will be problematic in itself.

3. What are the possibilities we will see changes in the ocean's acidity that would be problematic? Does this pose the greatest risk to the planet's food chain?
That's the big one, to my mind. Whether we screw up the oceans by industrialised fishing before acidification does the job is a matter for debate; my own opinion is that we'll fish it out first. If you're into seafood, learn to like jellyfish (needs garlic, I hear).

Happy to oblige.
 
Farmers are famous for complaining, but I've never heard of one saying his crops are starved of them. They complain about rain (too much, too little, wrong time), badgers, weeds, ramblers - but not CO2. That's a red herring. Safest for us is the climate our civilisation grew up in.

If CO2 levels stabilise there'll be no "current warming trend" once the climate reaches equilibrium. Any extra methane at all would be a bad idea, frankly, since equilibrium at 4-500ppm will be problematic in itself.

That's the big one, to my mind. Whether we screw up the oceans by industrialised fishing before acidification does the job is a matter for debate; my own opinion is that we'll fish it out first. If you're into seafood, learn to like jellyfish (needs garlic, I hear).

Happy to oblige.

Nice response. Thanks. I'm not ready to dismiss low CO2 levels as not being problematic although I agree we aren't likely to see it low enough to create a huge problem for organisms dependent on photosynthesis. I do see a benefit from a warmer climate IF more rainfall occurs esp in non arable areas and esp if CO2 levels reach the 500 level. Obviously I'm not addressing other consequences.

I've done some reading on acidification of the oceans but I don't think I really understand it well. I have concerns obviously. I'd like a good neutral summary I can depend on if someone has a ready link.
 
No I did not. Did you?

It's well known in the arenas of bull****ing. It's based on the premise that two wrongs make a right. The temperatures comes from Scotese (1), an old schematic which «... is disheartening to see (it) repeatedly being wheeled out on skeptical websites and venerated like the bones of some long dead saint» (2) and that was meant to show average temperatures for extremely long periods -as it shows from its abundance in age lasting plateaus-. The CO2 levels are from a paper from Roger's. You may see a more modern version from the same author (3). There are up to date representations of both global temperatures and CO2 levels (4)(5) (beware of a marked trend to extend land temperatures into global temperatures; combine that with the continental drift animation below)

The purpose of such concoction is to show huge variations in CO2 without experiencing temperature variations at a global scale and during tens of millions of years. That is, the purpose of that figure is showing that lung cancer existed long before cigarette was invented, then cigarette should have little to do with lung cancer. And it is all done in a supposed context of ceteris paribus when in fact solar intensity, orbit and other crucial elements are in the change throughout such unfathomable period:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/cgifs/Continentaldrift.gif

(pay special attention to periods with and without emerging lands in the polar areas)

(1) Copy and paste into your browser's address bar:
www
.
scotese
.
com
/
climate
.
htm

(2) From Peter Hogarth, guest contributor in SkepticalScience

(3)
www.
searchanddiscovery.
com/
documents/2009/110115royer/
ndx_royer.pdf

(4)(5)
Temperatures in Roger's paper:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/pics/Royer_2009_present_smaller.JPG

from Veizer
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1631/paleoco2sealevel.png
 
1. In the long run are CO2 levels around 400-500 a safer level for us and better for growing crops considering levels of <150 PPM are dangerous for plant life?


The Earth has been between 150ppm and 400ppm for ~5 million years, and in that time life has evolved/adapted to those specific conditions. While some species will eventually do better at 500ppm CO2 others will do worse even if it's just from the increased competition. We have no guarantees which will thrive.

In terms of crops, even if crops grow well under those conditions there is not going to be anyplace for them to grow. It takes thousands of years for ecosystems to migrate during a de-glaciation and in this case it may take longer because ecosystems would need to move to places they haven't been in a very long time.

Just because wheat growing temperatures migrate to northern Canada doesn't mean we can up and start growing wheat there. It will take thousands of years for taiga to become useful agricultural soil and much longer for the rock in the Canadian Shield.


In the end it's not just the among of CO2 or the amount of warming that's the problem both are manageable if the change is slow enough, but current change is an order of magnitude higher than any change seen outside a period of mass extinction. It doesn't matter whether it's warming or cooling, if ecosystems can't migrate quickly enough to keep up with the change there is little productive environment anywhere.
 
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