An Atheist's View of the Alpha Course

Recovering Agnostic

Interesting account. I am very glad I was a long way past believing when I went along. I wish I had enough years, transport and all the right arguments at my fingertips to attend Alppha courses full time! I'd be a disruptive - but very polite, of course - influence and maybe, just maybe, I could make a small dent in their woolly beliefs. For me, though, exercise and tap dancing take precedence. :)
 
Brainache said:
Hi MsTricky. There are a couple of threads all about the history around Jesus and the bible stories here already. You could try starting with this one:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117203

It gets a bit argumentative in parts and it is quite long, so you might have trouble reading it all. Don't worry too much about that, it is also repetitive.

You might find some answers to some of your questions, you might just find more bloody questions. Some of us enjoy the ride.:)

ETA: Or if you are really brave, try this one: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235771
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Thanks Brainache, very interesting
 
Thank you for that detailed look at Alpha, very interesting.

Recovering Agnostic said:
Maybe not "on demand", but I'm afraid this isn't uncommon. It's a fairly typical aspect of Charismatic Christianity, which Holy Trinity Brompton (HTB) are heavily into. The idea is that the Spirit speaks to us and guides us to truth, if we just ask. There's a theoretical acceptance that it's subject to God's Will, but in practice, it tends to become "pray, and God will speak to you". I've heard very senior and well-respected Christians in these circles talking about far stranger practices than this.
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If you stick it out through this fairly major hurdle (and I probably only found it quite so glaring because this was an area of particular interest and concern to me at the time), the next big step, another few weeks down the line, is the Holy Spirit Weekend. This is all about learning about and encountering the third person of the Trinity, and it gives the lie to zooterkin's surprise, because it's built around the expectation (though generally unstated) that you will have an experience. This is where the rubber hits the road, and where they hope to give you the endorphin rush that will turn intellectual interest into emotional attachment. It's a weekend away for two reasons - to weed out those who aren't interested enough to make the commitment and who might therefore disturb the dutifully expectant atmosphere, and to allow enough time to create that atmosphere.
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Actually, I'm familiar with the idea of praying for guidance, and even for some sort of sign from the Holy Spirit, and so on. What surprised me was the idea of asking for, and getting, (apparently) real information about someone in the way that mstricky described. To my mind, there's a vast difference between "God told me to do something" and "God told me you like darts and are the life and soul of the party". The former is commonplace in even a C of E church; the latter, as I said, I've never encountered, but my exposure to charismatics has been limited (I found them slightly scary even when I was nominally a Christian, many years ago).
 
zooterkin said:
Thank you for that detailed look at Alpha, very interesting.



Actually, I'm familiar with the idea of praying for guidance, and even for some sort of sign from the Holy Spirit, and so on. What surprised me was the idea of asking for, and getting, (apparently) real information about someone in the way that mstricky described. To my mind, there's a vast difference between "God told me to do something" and "God told me you like darts and are the life and soul of the party". The former is commonplace in even a C of E church; the latter, as I said, I've never encountered, but my exposure to charismatics has been limited (I found them slightly scary even when I was nominally a Christian, many years ago).
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I hear you. TBH, I haven't come across it much in this exact form, because the normal method is to tie the "revelation" or "word of knowledge" to a twee, vacuous little sentiment that would be rejected by Hallmark for being too sappy.

So the dartboard thing might be presented as "I got a picture of a dartboard". At this point, the mark recipient of the message might give a personal connection that explains this picture, but that's just the icing on the cake. The main attraction is to turn that picture-message into something more meaningful and prophetic, like "God's urging you to go for the bullseye". Oh, how I wish I was making this up! Charismatic fads come and go, but this was very much standard practice back in the days when I moved in those circles. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if that had morphed into flat out cold reading in some places.

I still remember a talk given by Mike Pilavachi at a huge event (which will remain nameless) about how he turned someone's life around by "prophetically" reciting the lyrics of Dancing Queen. Seriously. Not a word of a lie. And even if a particular practice isn't exactly mainstream, the nature of Charismatic Christianity means that there will always be a lunatic fringe who are likely to be dabbling in it.

I found all this scary, but also sort of intriguing, and for a while I was quite into it in a way. It's amazing how easily your idea of normal changes when you hang around with particular groups, like a frog being slowly boiled alive.
 
I attended another Alpha meeting tonight and over dinner I got the chance to ask others what the results were of their experience the week before was, whereby they were in a room with three others that meditated then said what God had told them about the individual. Each one said the 'readings' had been vague and general and could have fitted anyone.
So I have to acknowledge that someone in the group knew of my background somehow and so the reading they gave me, although accurate, must have been as a result of some info they were able to get hold of about me previously. So to sum up, I don't believe the info they supposedly received was from God, it was info they found out about me somewhere.
I can't really stomach how so called Christians would do that or why they would be so devious but its looking like that is the situation
 
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mstricky said:
I attended another Alpha meeting tonight and over dinner I got the chance to ask others what the results were of their experience the week before was, whereby they were in a room with three others that meditated then said what God had told them about the individual. Each one said the 'readings' had been vague and general and could have fitted anyone.
So I have to acknowledge that someone in the group knew of my background somehow and so the reading they gave me, although accurate, must have been as a result of some info they were able to get hold of about me previously. So to sum up, I don't believe the info they supposedly received was from God, it was info they found out about me somewhere.
I can't really stomach how so called Christians would do that or why they would be so devious but its looking like that is the situation
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These people believe that anything is justified to save a soul from burning forever in hell.

Whats a little deception compared to eternal punishment?
 
If someone offered me a million pounds to lie, I couldn't, I would rather die than lie. I am gobsmacked as to how so called Christians can be so devious
 
mstricky said:
If someone offered me a million pounds to lie, I couldn't, I would rather die than lie. I am gobsmacked as to how so called Christians can be so devious
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I'm afraid you are seeing the world through very rose-tinted spectacles. It is far, far more fulfilling to see the world as it really is, life and, of course, death, as it has been since cells began to replicate It's good and bad, but when you think of the way the human species has survived and very definitely multiplied, then you must realise that the scientific benefits we have are the best yet.
 
mstricky said:
I attended another Alpha meeting tonight and over dinner I got the chance to ask others what the results were of their experience the week before was, whereby they were in a room with three others that meditated then said what God had told them about the individual. Each one said the 'readings' had been vague and general and could have fitted anyone.
So I have to acknowledge that someone in the group knew of my background somehow and so the reading they gave me, although accurate, must have been as a result of some info they were able to get hold of about me previously. So to sum up, I don't believe the info they supposedly received was from God, it was info they found out about me somewhere.
I can't really stomach how so called Christians would do that or why they would be so devious but its looking like that is the situation
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A couple of things -

1/ They get Fundie Points for converts, redeemable when they finally meet St Peter. And they get to feel smug when they show you off in church on Sunday.
2/ More converts helps reinforce their irrational beliefs; the more people who can see the Emperor's new clothes, the more real they become
 
^
A good point, Filippo Lippi.
I think it's' important to understand that it's not necessarily the case that the cold reader actively digs down into the private lives of the subjects.
Throwing out general statements is often quite enough to allow the subject to connect the dots and spin something banal into a 'special', individualised reading.
 
No need to suppose that they did any digging, they'd known MsTricky for weeks. We don't know what she'd revealed about herself during that time.
 
I am due to attend a five hour session this weekend. I think the normal thing is to take the attendants away for the weekend. What bothers me is if its a session to try and get one to feel Jesus coming into the soul. Has anyone been to such sessions and what happens?
 
mstricky said:
I am due to attend a five hour session this weekend. I think the normal thing is to take the attendants away for the weekend. What bothers me is if its a session to try and get one to feel Jesus coming into the soul. Has anyone been to such sessions and what happens?
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For a start, if you believe that a person who might or might not have been historical and who, if he was, died about 2,000 years ago is still floating around somewhere trying to reach all the people, than you need to consider the lack of any rationality or logic to that thought. Keep your mind clear and detached. Watch the others - can you really believe that they are having some mythical spirit 'entering their souls' or doing anything else?

The only way you will 'experience' anything at all is if you think it and convince yourself; and that can only happen in your own brain.
 
SusanB-M1 said:
For a start, if you believe that a person who might or might not have been historical and who, if he was, died about 2,000 years ago is still floating around somewhere trying to reach all the people, than you need to consider the lack of any rationality or logic to that thought. Keep your mind clear and detached. Watch the others - can you really believe that they are having some mythical spirit 'entering their souls' or doing anything else?

The only way you will 'experience' anything at all is if you think it and convince yourself; and that can only happen in your own brain.
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Ok thanks
 
SusanB-M1 said:
For a start, if you believe that a person who might or might not have been historical and who, if he was, died about 2,000 years ago is still floating around somewhere trying to reach all the people, than you need to consider the lack of any rationality or logic to that thought. Keep your mind clear and detached. Watch the others - can you really believe that they are having some mythical spirit 'entering their souls' or doing anything else?

The only way you will 'experience' anything at all is if you think it and convince yourself; and that can only happen in your own brain.
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I'd like to quibble with the highlighted point. Yes, it only happens in your brain, but it's possible to be influenced by any number of subtle things that you aren't even aware of. For example, people can be convinced that a room is haunted by the presence of infrasonic sound, undetectable to the ear. You don't need to convince yourself that the room's haunted in order to "experience" something (although it probably helps), but that doesn't mean that there really are ghosts.

If sessions like this are done well, it's highly likely that you will feel something, whether or not you're convincing yourself that it's real. If you think you only experience anything because you're telling yourself that it's real, you're more likely to end up being convinced when you feel something despite being sceptical. I'd prefer to say that anything you experience is not proof of anything, it barely qualifies as evidence. It's just a mental phenomenon which almost certainly has a mundane explanation, on a par with a stage hypnotist.
 
mstricky said:
I am due to attend a five hour session this weekend. I think the normal thing is to take the attendants away for the weekend. What bothers me is if its a session to try and get one to feel Jesus coming into the soul. Has anyone been to such sessions and what happens?
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Why are you attending when you are an atheist? Are you deliberately wasting their time?
 
My prediction for the weekend session:
It's applied psychology. And the OP is going to think he's immune. But no one is immune, and thinking you are is a bad strategy.
 
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