Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Hogwash.

I went back to see what you might be talking about and discovered this post which I missed the first time around. I also reviewed what we were specifically (:)) talking about as I'd wondered if I'd gotten lost during the time I was having trouble following the thread. First off I'll re-post the translation you produced (is this your translation BTW?) regarding Vecchiotti in court, in September of 2011, in reference to the negative controls:


Vecchiotti clearly thinks Stefanoni should have sent the negative controls and that she asked for them. Here's why she would think that: (...)

You seem to not understand that it is irrelevant what Vecchiotti thinks.
In fact, what she knows is far more relevant, as much as what she doesn't know; what she writes and what she doesn't write; she did, and what she didn't do.
What are her duties, and what are the other people duties; what is presumed and what isno.

But I still owe you an answer from a previous post, so this argument will be for later...
 
Have you heard about this case?

But she has a star tattooed on her face and everybody knows women with those tattoos murder men using knives.

Of course, the idea that Amanda couldn't have been involved because women just don't do such things, or that she was good student, or that she wouldn't hurt a spider mean little to nothing.

Neither do the accusations of her noise ticket or any other behavior that has been called out.

You agree, right?
 
I was chastened by davefoc's entreaty, so I actually took the time to read it.

It is, as usual, a ponderous diversion into irrelevance.

Vecchiotti reviewed a subset of Stefanoni's work and found a number of problems that rendered it scientifically invalid. She detailed her findings in a report that is available to the public.

This report is what matters. Even if one could prove, decisively, that Vecchiotti is a criminal, or that she is a habitual liar, or that she has never been right in a single other case, it would not change the substance of her findings in this case. These findings must be addressed on their own terms, by people who are technically competent to do so.

The PMF cultists, who indeed are joined by the judges on Italy's highest court, don't have that competence.

If you want to be fair, you should say that the IIP cultists don't have the competence to lecture the PMF people, the experts like Stefanoni and the Supreme Court, abaout what is "valid or invalid", either.

Hence their critique is centered on the consultants rather than the findings. To the extent they address the findings, they make up their own cargo cult framework for scientific analysis - "contamination must be proved" etc.

You are wrong. I am very focused on the "findings". I should say the matter, rather than the findings. Because there are no findings.

PS: the Supreme Curt doesn't say "contamination must be proved"; but the fact that contamination is probable must be proven.

They use that arbitrary framework to conclude that the scientists are wrong.

Some scientists are wrong.

And actually, all people who believe that DNA findings are central to this case, are wrong.
 
You seem to not understand that it is irrelevant what Vecchiotti thinks.
In fact, what she knows is far more relevant, as much as what she doesn't know; what she writes and what she doesn't write; she did, and what she didn't do.
What are her duties, and what are the other people duties; what is presumed and what isno.

She knows that Stefi is a lying liar and cheating cheater. I know that as well.
 
But she has a star tattooed on her face and everybody knows women with those tattoos murder men using knives.

Of course, the idea that Amanda couldn't have been involved because women just don't do such things, or that she was good student, or that she wouldn't hurt a spider mean little to nothing.

Neither do the accusations of her noise ticket or any other behavior that has been called out.

You agree, right?
I think so many people involved in heinous crimes appear so ordinary.
 
PS: the Supreme Curt doesn't say "contamination must be proved"; but the fact that contamination is probable must be proven.

Well that flies in face of most every system in the world. The lack of contamination must be proven not the other way round. If true it is a very strange aspect of the legal culture.

And actually, all people who believe that DNA findings are central to this case, are wrong.

And what is central to the case? This should be interesting.

The DNA is the only evidence that is even alleged to match the defendants.
 
But she has a star tattooed on her face and everybody knows women with those tattoos murder men using knives.

Of course, the idea that Amanda couldn't have been involved because women just don't do such things, or that she was good student, or that she wouldn't hurt a spider mean little to nothing.

Neither do the accusations of her noise ticket or any other behavior that has been called out.

You agree, right?

You know, anything is possible....agree?? ;)

Joanna Dennehy the woman in question was known to have serious psychological issues, was unemployed and was in the process of being evicted from her home. She murdered her landlord and one of her roommates. There are also 3 other men who seemed to be involved although they have not plead guilty.

Not exactly close.
 
Have you heard about this case?

Duh Yeah! That's what the quote related to on the Today program. (For non-British readers the Today program is so fundamental to British existence that the failure to broadcast it is the trigger for the Royal Navy to launch nuclear missiles on the basis that this means the French have launched a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the UK.)
 
All that is very true. The question is, how do we manage it and enforce it?

There are actually some very strict laws against child pornography in the US and elsewhere. So I don't think it is the laws that has been the problem but the enforce-ability. Until recently it has been difficult if not impossible to catch the people distributing and viewing it.

That is changing. Microsoft and Google for example have teamed up to fight it. Microsoft created picture detection technology that allows them to scan and catalog known child porn images and identify who is sending and receiving them. Also a a unique identification mark is applied to such content, and then all copies are immediately removed from the web.

Google has also cleaned up the search results for over 100,000 web queries that were known to lead to child porn-related results. They will soon roll out these changes in more than 150 languages, so the impact will be truly global.

While society will never wholly eliminate such depravity, it's getting harder now for people to get access to it, so that is a good thing.
Yes, you're right. Well said.
 
I think so many people involved in heinous crimes appear so ordinary.

Yeh. After it was GAME OVER.

In handcuffs. Being lead into court. Giving testimony, etc'.

But in the actual committing of their "heinous crimes", they were probably (in fact, undoubtedly) more ANIMATED, more EXCITED, and LESS ORDINARY.
 
CoulsdonUK is one of the most sincere and insightful posters on the JREFF.

I mean that most sincerely. I really do.

He/she is obviously the most sincerely sincere poster one could imagine encountering.

He/she hasn't got an insincere bone in his/her body.

He/she is so sincere that it makes me blush at my own lack of sincerity.
 
calm discussion

If you want to be fair, you should say that the IIP cultists don't have the competence to lecture the PMF people, the experts like Stefanoni and the Supreme Court, abaout what is "valid or invalid", either.
Are you calling the PMF people "experts?" Seriously? A prominent pro-guilt poster claimed that calm discussion with pro-innocence posters is not possible because either the PI-posters are ignorant or they are lying for the sake of someone they know is guilty. The concept of discussion implies that two people exchange views and listen to what each other says. There can be no discussion whatsoever (calm or otherwise) under such circumstances. Person A can say to person B, “You are lying,” but not much productive can happen after that. Or Person A can treat person B as a child and say, “I will teach you.” Neither scenario is a discussion in a meaningful sense of the term.
 
And actually, all people who believe that DNA findings are central to this case, are wrong.

And what is central to the case? This should be interesting.

The DNA is the only evidence that is even alleged to match the defendants.

Yes, I would also like to know. There is no case without the DNA evidence, and because the DNA evidence is not scientifically valid, there is no case.
 
Well that flies in face of most every system in the world. The lack of contamination must be proven not the other way round. If true it is a very strange aspect of the legal culture.

I don't think it's strange at all.
I don't think it's even true that this would go against most systems in the world; btw most systems in the world are civil law systems, the UK amd US common law based and plain adversarial systems are a small minority.

Scientific evidence does not have a legal nature itself that makes inherently different from any othe piece of evidence. No piece of evidence is required to have a standard of certainity, or to be perfect, in order to exist. If it has a lesser quality, lacks an absolute certain and universally validated, it will still be given a value and a weight, comparable to its statistical value as proof.

And what is central to the case? This should be interesting.

This case is based on a large set of circumstantial evidence, like most cases, evidence which - as stated by the Supreme Court - must be assessed as a whole.
This evidence consistes in very many pieces of several nature and from multiple sources, which form a "system" (or a number of systems) amongst themseles, and they can be regrouped in several areas. I list here some of them:

1. the immediate phisical evidence of the scene, which is evidence pointing to multiple perpetrators (shows two different modus operandi/ behaviours of perpetrators); it is a system of elements roughly visible prima facie that includes evidence that some perpetrator returned to the murder scene some time after the murder, and also that spent some time in the murder room.
2. physical evidence pointing to the fact that the break in was staged; this is also a made of a set of physical things, which would distinguish this "break in" from the true "break ins" as they are always seen.
3. the autopsy report, crossed with other physical findngs. Despite the claims of the contrary, and despite the quotings from pathologists who were not sure about this based on their information, the combination peculiar set of injuries is evidence that Meredith Kercher was killed by more than one person; this is also crossed with contextual findings (like DNA on her wirst etc.). This evidence is absolutely important in my view.
4. Capezzali and Monacchia's testimonies: these testimonies are credible and related to the murder, no logical argument exists against this; these testimonies are evidence not just about the time of death but because they can be "crossed" with other areas (such as the autopsy report).
5. The luminol prints. This evidence carries a strong probative value, despite denials of those who try to dismiss it (TMB etc), because of its extreme peculiarity, because of its striking analogy with the bloody bathmat print, because of its correspondence with the peculiar activity of shuffling on a mat/towel after washing oneself in the bathroom; above all, because it's value as a contrario evidence, that is because of the absolute weakness of the contrary scenario, the lack of alternatives (no alternative substance, no alternative activity);
6. The lies of Amanda Knox (the mop-shower story). This topic is disregarded both by the pro-Knox field, and (partly) even from the prosecution. But it is something huge and would deserve a chapter on its own. There is crushing evidence that Knox told a load of lies from minute zero of the investigation. Evidence of lying does not mean automatically proof of being a murderer, but this is one solid piece of circumstantial evidence, a "system" or an evidence area on its own that stands like the elephant in the room.
7. The unexplained false accusation of an innocent (for this, Knox was definitively found guilty). I say "unexplained" meaning unjustified, I mean that this is a furthe area on which Knox opened an additional chapter of changes and lies. Actually, the manifest inconsistency of all the claims of "coercion" or "false memory", the logical analysis of Knox's inconsistencies about the topic and the crossing with others' testimonies leave asolutely no reasonable doubt on this point.
8. The bathmat print. This print is compatible with Sollecito and not compatible with Rudy Guede. It's a rather obvious piece of circumstantial evidence in my opinion.
9. Sollecito's lies. They have a lesser weight compared to Knox's lies, but several Sollecito's statements are a tool for crossing evidence, that helps to illuminate some of the severe inconsistencies in Knox's stories.

The above areas are not all. There are other sets and other classes of evidence, it's just a summary scheme as an example to how this case appears to me.
 
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