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How To Use Bitcoin – The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man

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Right. There's got to be _some_ stability in any investment.

I wouldn't invest in BTC under any circumstances.

There doesn't need to be that much stability in an investment, but you need a lot in a currency.

I had expected this to crash, but I don't think it will. I don't believe it will ever be popular but I am getting to the point that I expect it to be around for a long time.
 
Who here would rent an apt or rent out an apt for say 3 bitcoins per month? Who can show one that does that?
 
The rising value is a killer. Imagine you're on 60 day payment terms with a supplier - they were at $200 when you made your order, now you owe $600 worth. It's impossible to do business like that.
At last you appreciate that the rising value of bitcoin is a stumbling block in its adoption as a currency. Naturally, you exaggerate the effect. Given that the average price of bitcoins doubles every 4 months, the debt in question would more likely be $300 and not $600.

Of course this is a problem only if the debt is priced in bitcoins. If the debt is priced in USD and one of the payment options is bitcoin at whatever the exchange rate is at the time then this scenario wouldn't exist.

If we say for the sake of argument that Bitcoin is stable but still unregulated, is it worth accepting Bitcoin if you're, for example, a high street chain? There's extra expense for them in adopting the new system, but what are the advantages? I mean aside from losing out to those people who will refuse to shop there out of spite because their Bitcoins/gold dubloons/crabsticks aren't accepted as currency.
Adding bitcoin as a payment option can only be an advantage for a business just as accepting credit card payments is. Unless you are still harping on about bitcoin exchanges, any extra cost would be minimal and certainly far less for the business than EFTPOS payments.

Quite, but it's probably harder to determine whether you paid the right taxes or not if you're using something like Bitcoin.
If you are referring to how bitcoin transactions are taxed then that is not a difficulty. FinCEN has already issued guidelines on the matter (http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html) and any profit from bitcoin trading is (rightly) taxable income. If course, the IRS will want to classify this income as "gambling income" to maximize its revenue but that is an administrative matter.

If you are referring to tax evasion then it is harder with bitcoin than with the banking system but easier than with just cash where under-reporting is a serious problem. (You can at least track bitcoin transactions through the blockchain).

Recently when I bought a used vehicle from a car yard, the dealer wanted to be paid in cash. He then offered to put a lower price on the transfer forms to "save me some stamp duty on the sale". There is no shortage of tradespeople who are willing to give discounts for cash in order to keep some of their business off the books.
 
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Only in the minds of criminals and conspiracy nutters, who would hate the government no matter what they did anyway. For the rest of us, Bitcoin is looking more tarnished than ever...
If you think that there is nothing wrong with the IRS seizing funds from a bank account without explanation nor legal recourse by the victim then you must be one of those U.S.S.A. comrades who thinks it could only happen to somebody else. :rolleyes:
 
mhaze said:
You can't think of bitcoin only within the framework of a 'good government'. It's utility for the individual exists where ever the user is. Cyprus is a recent and a good example.
I haven't been, why would you think I had?

Despotic and other naughty governments are less likely to give a poop about having tight control over the means of connecting to the Internet, leading to restricted access, and monitored and filtered traffic. No?

mhaze said:
Because of asymmetric crypto key pairs, consisting of a private and a public key. Only the public keys are in the block chain and it is published for all to see.
The wallet addresses are public. We have a record of who sent what to whom. Combine that with access to your ISP, the exchanges, and comprehensive network monitoring, I don't think it's out of the realms of fantasy to suggest your government could know how much you sent and received and how much you have now.

It's even more likely when considering that when I said "hypothetically speaking", I was hinting that there's a good chance it's already true that the NSA and others have already broken or compromised the encryption used by Bitcoin and a large number of wallets.
 
At last you appreciate that the rising value of bitcoin is a stumbling block in its adoption as a currency. Naturally, you exaggerate the effect. Given that the average price of bitcoins doubles every 4 months, the debt in question would more likely be $300 and not $600.
I went to bitcoincharts.com and looked at the value 60 days ago; it was less than $200. I don't appreciate accusations of dishonesty.

Of course this is a problem only if the debt is priced in bitcoins. If the debt is priced in USD and one of the payment options is bitcoin at whatever the exchange rate is at the time then this scenario wouldn't exist.
In that case Bitcoin isn't being used as a currency, you're just using the bitcoin network as a USD payment system because it doesn't really matter what the purchasing power of Bitcoin is. Since you're going to convert them at the other end since you're working in USD, you might as well just get paid in USD.

Adding bitcoin as a payment option can only be an advantage for a business just as accepting credit card payments is. Unless you are still harping on about bitcoin exchanges, any extra cost would be minimal and certainly far less for the business than EFTPOS payments.
Exchanging them is still an issue because, AFAIK, nobody is obliged to take anything but legal tender in the settlement of a debt. At least where I live.

From an article from the BBC about card charges http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23431543 :-

"On average, debit card transactions cost the retailer 9p each, or about 0.2% of the bill." - credit cards are to be limited to 0.3%, but debit cards are already used for 3 times as many purchases in the UK and that ratio is increasing. Your experience in Oz may be different.

If you look at the transactions rolling past on the blockchain site, you'll see most have fees between 0.0001 BTC and 0.001 BTC (5-50p), so the cost of each transaction is comparable to a debit card transaction.

I suppose we could argue that fee is being pushed to the buyer, and that is an incentive for the seller, but the overall outcome is the same. Sellers will receive buyer spend minus any fees, because now the buyer effectively has less to spend.

I'm curious as to how refunds might work, would each employee need access to the store's wallet? Perhaps network security would need to be improved for most stores because I'm guessing you can't use a paper wallet in a busy shop. There's how to deal with confirmations and potential double-spend, which I hear is probably not a huge issue for small purchases, but still an issue. I'm sure there will be some kind of software services that one could buy to solve or mitigate these things.

The shops know you have legal tender, and they don't actually save much by taking Bitcoins. Unless a Bitcoin type system were to be tacked onto existing banking
If you are referring to tax evasion then it is harder with bitcoin than with the banking system but easier than with just cash where under-reporting is a serious problem. (You can at least track bitcoin transactions through the blockchain).

Recently when I bought a used vehicle from a car yard, the dealer wanted to be paid in cash. He then offered to put a lower price on the transfer forms to "save me some stamp duty on the sale". There is no shortage of tradespeople who are willing to give discounts for cash in order to keep some of their business off the books.
I was thinking of tax evasion. I was thinking that when Bitcoin's place in the economy is being considered, things like that will come up. An alternative banking system with less oversight will undoubtedly make some people a little uncomfortable.
 
I went to bitcoincharts.com and looked at the value 60 days ago; it was less than $200. I don't appreciate accusations of dishonesty.
Looking at a "spot" price 2 months ago is hardly likely to tell you much about average prices. If you want to know how the average price is trending then you need to look at the long term price history. I did that work a few weeks ago.

Exchanging them is still an issue because, AFAIK, nobody is obliged to take anything but legal tender in the settlement of a debt. At least where I live.
Are you still discussing the hypothetical situation where bitcoin prices are more stable and there are more opportunities to use them or have you shifted the goal posts?

The shops know you have legal tender, and they don't actually save much by taking Bitcoins. Unless a Bitcoin type system were to be tacked onto existing banking
You must be trying to miss the point. It's about offering customers more payment options in the hope that it attracts more business - not replacing existing payment options with bitcoin.
 
I haven't been, why would you think I had?

Despotic and other naughty governments are less likely to give a poop about having tight control over the means of connecting to the Internet, leading to restricted access, and monitored and filtered traffic. No?


The wallet addresses are public. We have a record of who sent what to whom. Combine that with access to your ISP, the exchanges, and comprehensive network monitoring, I don't think it's out of the realms of fantasy to suggest your government could know how much you sent and received and how much you have now.

It's even more likely when considering that when I said "hypothetically speaking", I was hinting that there's a good chance it's already true that the NSA and others have already broken or compromised the encryption used by Bitcoin and a large number of wallets.

No, your premises are incorrect, and that leads to conclusions that can be ignored. Go look at the bitcoin block chain and tell me who sent something to someone.

The wallet addresses are public. We have a record of who sent what to whom.


But even if your premises were correct, your engaging in sheer conspiratorial speculation serves no purpose.

What you are saying is that some future Snowden might leave the NSA and disclosure methods of breaking the world's best crypto. That used by all banks, investment houses, credit card companies.

In such a case the very least of the concerns society has is bitcoin, because you would have a systemic breakdown of trusted intermediaries. Meaning, anything could be stolen from anyone at anytime.

Because the bitcoin is far more secure than banks and banking methods (etc) you have just described a situation which would cause money to flee to bitcoin, not from it.
 
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....FinCEN has already issued guidelines on the matter (http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html) and any profit from bitcoin trading is (rightly) taxable income. If course, the IRS will want to classify this income as "gambling income" to maximize its revenue but that is an administrative matter......
No, I don't think they could do that. That is a very specific category. Short term gain and loss with the passive loss rules serve the same purpose of effectively screwing the little guy.

I went to bitcoincharts.com and looked at the value 60 days ago; it was less than $200. I don't appreciate accusations of dishonesty......
I thought it was a strawman and contrived argument too, but for a different reason. You didn't note the equal application of your logic to a fiat currency, government issued,which was equally fluctuating in value, but of course in a downward direction.

Given that the latter steals wealth from the private sector, and the former increases it, it is rather ludicrous for you to argue against a system that, on the average and statistically, increases the wealth of those participating in in.


I
In that case Bitcoin isn't being used as a currency, you're just using the bitcoin network as a USD payment system because it doesn't really matter what the purchasing power of Bitcoin is. Since you're going to convert them at the other end since you're working in USD, you might as well just get paid in USD.....
No. In purchasing, say on Ebay, I often buy items from overseas that are listed in an alternate currency. The store software does an instant conversion and that price in my currency is used for the transaction.

This is the same.
 
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Precisely what I was about to post. Thanks.

The damn thing dropped by 27% in 45 minutes.

I'd feel bad for the shlubs who collectively bought 11k+ bitcoins early on November 19th at $750/BTC, but I've referred elsewhere to the Barnum effect -- this was a good example of it. When something is on a meteoric rise over a short timespan and you buy into it in an effort to "get in on the free money", you have only yourself to blame when your money ends up piddled away into the wind.

It'll be interesting to see where the current crash stops. If it ends up at or under 300, then the Bitwhales will have successfully fleeced a new crop of n00bs. (Oct 24, Nov 10, and now Nov 19)
 
Looking at a "spot" price 2 months ago is hardly likely to tell you much about average prices.

Which is irrelevant to the scenario Tyke propsed, whereby you would presumably be using the spot price for pricing these things with your supplier.

Or are you suggesting that those dealings be done using some form of daily average?
 
I'd feel bad for the shlubs who collectively bought 11k+ bitcoins early on November 19th at $750/BTC, [ .... ] (Oct 24, Nov 10, and now Nov 19)
:confused: Why would you feel bad for anybody who bought bitcoins on Oct 24 or Nov 10? Their holdings are worth a lot more now than then.

Do you seriously think the price will never go past $750 again?
 
Looking at a "spot" price 2 months ago is hardly likely to tell you much about average prices. If you want to know how the average price is trending then you need to look at the long term price history. I did that work a few weeks ago.
1) What price did the trend indicate 60 days ago?
2) In what world do you buy currency and pay 50%+ above the going rate because your broker tells you it's trending a particular way? I have some dollars to sell if you're interested.

Even if you were right, in the end it doesn't make any difference as practically nobody is going to want to pay double what the price was when they made the order.
Are you still discussing the hypothetical situation where bitcoin prices are more stable and there are more opportunities to use them or have you shifted the goal posts?
I'm not moving any goalposts - I'd like to hear both scenarios because one is what we have, and the other is what we hope to have. It is an additional cost whether the price is stable or not. If you'd prefer we can pretend it doesn't exist.

You must be trying to miss the point. It's about offering customers more payment options in the hope that it attracts more business - not replacing existing payment options with bitcoin.
I understand the point you're trying to make, I just don't think it's convincing.

When you walk into a high street store, the guy behind the counter knows you haven't just stepped off the latest ship from Mars. You have access to legal tender in the form of cash or cards. Nobody is disadvantaged by not having the ability to pay with Bitcoin, and it offers very little over existing payment options except that it's new and fashionable.

It might make sense when you take into account the fanaticism of early adopters, having to assume they'll walk past 3 shops in which they could buy the same thing with their card/cash, so they can pay with Bitcoin instead.

Some people might find this article interesting, makes positive and negative points - http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323300004578559941389131384
 
But even if your premises were correct, your engaging in sheer conspiratorial speculation serves no purpose.
Maybe, but it was you who suggested it be used as a way of circumventing government controls.
What you are saying is that some future Snowden might leave the NSA and disclosure methods of breaking the world's best crypto. That used by all banks, investment houses, credit card companies.
Nearly 5 years ago a method was developed which brought us uncomfortably close to a practical attack on AES-256, which BTC (and yes all those other places) uses. At that time (not long after Bitcoin went public) Bruce Schneier - who people tend to listen to on crypto matters - recommended people shouldn't use it any more for new applications.

And it's not just breaking the crypto - NSA has a history of intentionally weakening crypto standards for whatever reason. SHA-256 which secures the blockchain was developed by the NSA. Just saying.

In such a case the very least of the concerns society has is bitcoin, because you would have a systemic breakdown of trusted intermediaries. Meaning, anything could be stolen from anyone at anytime.
Well, yeah, if you're the NSA. Most people aren't. But Bitcoin has encouraged a lot of people to form groups and amass an enormous amount of computing power.

Because the bitcoin is far more secure than banks and banking methods (etc) you have just described a situation which would cause money to flee to bitcoin, not from it.
Because the US government wants to destroy the banking system and prop up Bitcoin?
 
....
And it's not just breaking the crypto - NSA has a history of intentionally weakening crypto standards for whatever reason. SHA-256 which secures the blockchain was developed by the NSA. Just saying. Well, yeah, if you're the NSA. Most people aren't. But Bitcoin has encouraged a lot of people to form groups and amass an enormous amount of computing power. Because the US government wants to destroy the banking system and prop up Bitcoin?
How's that tinfoil hat fit?

Bitcoin was developed and implemented by hackers and crypto freaks. Thanks for lecturing them with a pittance of words from Wikipedia....there are technical analysis of this type of problem published...

Wow ... "520$" just now. Another "catastrophic" price fall.
The price is almost as low as it was 2 days ago.

You know, psion1O, these guys wisely suggesting caution should be listened to. Now you know,this thread was created in 2011,when the price of bitcoin was like 2-30 usd. Clearly, it is scary stuff since now it is up 700-900 Man that's like, well, something to back off from. You know what I mean? Like these are true sages here talking to us?

So like, we were stupid fools to get into this in 2011 and to stick with it in 2012. Yeah. 2012 was a bad year, right? Hey...like yeah. It was bad. Then there came 2013. April. Frightening, scarey stuff there. We were dumb schmucks not to get out in November 2011 when it went to 2USD. Yeah. Oh yeah. And April 2013, we should have all sold out when it went down to 50. Yeah. You know I'm right, man. The sages of JREF immortalized on these pages document the truthies. And the truthies don't lie. Like yeah.

I mean, look. You know I'm right.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
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1) What price did the trend indicate 60 days ago?
Since we are agreed that it is not a good idea to buy things priced in bitcoin on credit, I don't see the point of continuing this line of questioning.

To answer your question, there was a relatively smooth trend from 22 Sep to 3 Nov which suggests that a $200 bill would be worth about $400 today. However, bitcoin prices have doubled in the last two weeks (not including the latest spike). That rate rise is too fast and I would expect bitcoin prices to fall and hover around the $500 mark for a while. (Your crystal ball might make a better prediction).

I understand the point you're trying to make, I just don't think it's convincing.
So either the shopkeeper gets little or no extra business from hanging up a sign saying "we accept bitcoins" (so he has few bitcoins to cash in) or the extra business he gets covers the costs of cashing in the bitcoin payments he gets.

It's not exactly lose-lose is it?
 
:confused: Why would you feel bad for anybody who bought bitcoins on Oct 24 or Nov 10? Their holdings are worth a lot more now than then.

I was pointing out the massive sell-off spikes that happened on those days in very small time periods as a LOT of people cashed out. This tells me that there are plenty of people just waiting out there to lock in their gains, and the precipitious price drops at those times tell me that the players' confidence in Bitcoin holding _any_ given price is still low.

Do you seriously think the price will never go past $750 again?
I cannot predict the future, but the meteoric rise Bitcoin has experienced is frequently unsustainable, like many other commodities (just ask the gold bugs). I see no reason to believe that Bitcoin will remain past $750 for any appreciable time other than speculatory optimism. I also see no reason that it will remain above $200, for that matter, as its practical utility is still very much up in the air. A "buy and hold" approach is typically safe and profitable IF you buy low and IF your investment is likely to produce enough value at the time you sell to offset anything else you could've been doing with the money while it's tied up. Bitcoin isn't "low" right now, so I wouldn't consider buying it at this price for a moment.

If you could predict the future, you would have mortgaged your house to buy Bitcoins back when it was at $10 or $50, and cashed out enough at $200 to pay off that mortgage while leaving your bankroll solvent to keep playing. Instead, you own zero Bitcoins, just like me. I don't think it's _my_ confidence in Bitcoin you should be questioning, but instead your own. Any fool can make a million dollars in play money with the stock market; just check out kevsta's stock charts over in the goldbug threads.

I would not be opposed to jumping on board the Bitcoin speculation train at some point by buying in for $1-2k while it's in one of the valleys, but I would treat it like a gambling venture; the Bitcoin bankroll is separate from all other money, used only for Bitcoin, and considered to be a score all on its own. Occasional withdrawals can be made during spikes (and the first ASAP to get the original buyin back), but never a significant amount.
 
I see no reason to believe that Bitcoin will remain past $750 for any appreciable time other than speculatory optimism. I also see no reason that it will remain above $200, for that matter, as its practical utility is still very much up in the air.


The recent congressional hearings into virtual currencies seem to be behind the latest price spike in bitcoin. Evidently the authorities don't share your pessimism.
Authorities See Worth of Bitcoin
By Ryan Tracy
Updated Nov. 18, 2013 11:56 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON—Senior U.S. law-enforcement and regulatory officials said they see benefits in digital forms of money and are making progress in tackling its risks. The price of bitcoin, the most common virtual currency, soared to a record following the comments.

U.S. authorities, appearing Monday at the first-ever congressional hearing on virtual currencies, outlined the pitfalls and promises of bitcoin amid concern the anonymity and decentralized nature of some virtual currencies can help facilitate crimes. The hearing provided a financial lift to bitcoin as U.S. officials, who have previously highlighted the currency's role in money laundering and other illicit activities, called it a "legitimate" financial service.
..........
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304439804579205740125297358
 
The recent congressional hearings into virtual currencies seem to be behind the latest price spike in bitcoin. Evidently the authorities don't share your pessimism.

FTA said:
WASHINGTON—Senior U.S. law-enforcement and regulatory officials said they see benefits in digital forms of money and are making progress in tackling its risks.
...
"The Department of Justice recognizes that many virtual currency systems offer legitimate financial services and have the potential to promote more efficient global commerce," Mythili Raman, acting assistant attorney general for the department's criminal division, said in testimony before the SenateHomeland Security and Government Affairs Committee.

Oh dear, you didn't read this and think "Bitcoin", did you?

No government will ever like Bitcoin proper, for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam over these umpteen pages. They're talking about leveraging the technological advances related to Bitcoin,... while almost certainly removing many of the aspects that makes Bitcoin appealing to current Bitcoiners (anonymity, unregulated would be two big targets).

That would definitely explain the spike though; unbridled optimism combined with a surprising willingness to believe that governments would get involved in Bitcoin for the Public Good™ rather than Their Own Interests™.
 
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