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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Bay's pieces on THHP are quite remarkable, he also dealt with Belzec in the same exhaustive fashion.
 
Nick Terry said:
This is utter nonsense. It's also the exact same tactic tried on by Dogzilla a year or so ago on this or the other HD discussion thread: creating an argument to authority even though that authority has clearly been superseded by the work of others.

Arad wrote his book on the Reinhard camps more than a quarter of a century ago. His discussion of the mass graves and cremation relies on a number of eyewitness testimonies some of which he may well quote to indicate various dimensions; and implicitly (but not really very explicitly) on the 1945 Polish investigation, whose results won't allow for any calculation of grave size/density.

After Arad published his book more than a quarter of a century ago, air photos of the Treblinka camp site became available. This new evidence is discussed in some detail by Alex Bay in his study on the Holocaust History Project website, and by Roberto Muehlenkamp in the white paper linked in my sig; in both cases using computer modelling techniques such as AutoCAD to calculate more precise dimensions of the 'inner camp' and also showing using visual evidence things about the condition of the site.

If you want further dimensions quoted from eyewitnesses (which is what resorting to Arad amounts to) then Sara Berger's new book Experten der Vernichtung adds a considerable amount of detail and is more comprehensive than Arad; it should be considered the currently definitive study of all three Reinhard camps. Berger cites Roberto's section of the white paper on precisely this issue of mass graves.
Click to expand...


You're creating an argument to authority but to a different authority. Does Berger's book give us the numbers necessary to calculate the density of the mass graves? Yes or No?
 
Nick Terry said:
Actually the other way around. Newspapers airbrushed out the man by the pillar to make for what they thought was a better shot when cropped.
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Thanks. So much for the 'camera never lies' lol.

Are we sure the man was airbrushed out and not added? If we look closely at the mans arm against the pillar, it does look if that picture has been altered (blurred edge)
higher resolution pice here
http://revblog.codoh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ill1.jpg

just cropped out in this image
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PxxO3KraB5g/UM2pUtN-e8I/AAAAAAAAMe8/GkoozQ88PxI/s1600/3.jpg


and if we look at a pretty good quality picture without the man in it I cannot see anything out of the ordinary around the pillar area.
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/dfac6a1c82ec4b6dc1411f452fbcab9b.jpg
 
CaptainHowdy said:
You're creating an argument to authority but to a different authority. Does Berger's book give us the numbers necessary to calculate the density of the mass graves? Yes or No?
Click to expand...

That's not the point; the bottom line is you cannot tout a 25 year old study in ignorance of what else has been written on the subject since then. The "authority" = the sum total of research. Relying on a single outdated authority is never good practice. Berger's book is brand new and should be read by everyone interested in this subject, along with other readily available sources.

As for whether it would answer your query, no sources will allow you to calculate density to the level of precision you seemingly demand.

The best that can be achieved is to model the following variables:

1) size of the 'Totenlager' - see Bay and Muehlenkamp for this

2) as many witness statements as possible, synthesised to indicate an estimate range for the dimensions of the graves, always bearing in mind that eyeball estimates of dimensions are usually off somewhat and memory for numbers is usually poor, which is why it's better to add more witnesses to converge on a probable set of dimensions and number of graves.

3) the 1945 Polish report indicating the depth of graves

4) the indicators provided by archaeological investigations of Belzec and Sobibor, which give a more comprehensive data set on the dimensions of those mass graves, as they are clearly comparable.

Roberto Muehlenkamp modelled a series of probable densities of the mass graves at Belzec, based on taking several other factors into consideration, such as known anthropological data on heights of Polish Jews of the era, and also consideration of probable weights based on the known mix of deportees (men/women/children) and their geographical background.

He then further modelled over time some of the likely space-saving effects of compression in the graves caused by decomposition and leakage of bodily fluids/dessication, not to mention the sheer weight of corpses which would have pressed down on earlier layers. When mass graves are being filled up progressively over time they will rise due to bloating in decomposition, and then fall.

The mass graves at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka were unlike other mass graves known from 20th Century mass casualty situations - certainly unlike the mass graves created by the Einsatzgruppen - because they were 'open' and added to for prolonged periods. Accordingly it would not surprise me if they were indeed the most densely compacted mass graves in human history.
 
marcus777 said:
Thanks. So much for the 'camera never lies' lol.

Are we sure the man was airbrushed out and not added? If we look closely at the mans arm against the pillar, it does look if that picture has been altered (blurred edge)
higher resolution pice here
http://revblog.codoh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ill1.jpg

just cropped out in this image
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PxxO3KraB5g/UM2pUtN-e8I/AAAAAAAAMe8/GkoozQ88PxI/s1600/3.jpg

and if we look at a pretty good quality picture without the man in it I cannot see anything out of the ordinary around the pillar area.
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/dfac6a1c82ec4b6dc1411f452fbcab9b.jpg
Click to expand...

Sorry, not playing. The first photo doesn't look altered to me whereas the third photo looks very much airbrushed to me.

This shows how completely pointless it is to entertain photo-manipulation arguments when it's quite likely someone else will flatly disagree with you. Unless you have a properly sourced copy of the original print then pretty much any argument about a pic found on the internet is utterly worthless.

The first image hails from a denier blog. Deniers have been known to alter and massage images and sources to make their arguments look better, therefore how do I know whether to trust them *if* I accept *your* claim that the first photo "looks altered"? I don't. I'm not going to trust a denier blog on such an issue, ever, because of their track record of untrustworthiness.

The main problem with this line of anomaly-hunting bull faeces is that nobody has yet explained WHY anyone would add the standing man.
 
EtienneSC said:
This raises an interesting question, much the same as that of "reasonable" and "unreasonable" doubt raised earlier. As pretty much a "denier", what turned my mind after 30 years from asking how to asking whether was that the most significant evidence I was shown from authoritative text books (e.g. Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews) invariably turned out to be something other than what it was presented. I link to some of this evidence below. In addition, one authority in particular, Jan van Pelt, spoke to camera in the 1990s and described a document as "very direct evidence of extermination". This was a BBC documentary on the content of Soviet archives and the document was shown on screen. It turned out to be merely a reference to "Sonderbehandlung" (special treatment, which far from being "very direct" depends on the "coded language" method of interpreting German wartime documents. This sort of thing I think justifies me in looking more closely at the remaining evidence, on the principle "Once bitten, twice shy." Ever since, I have been shocked at what I found.
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I agree.
I have been shocked at what I found to not have found.

I believed until the Internet.

At first I was told nobody outside the camps knew millions were being slain in gas chambers. I was told that few in the camps knew millions were being slain in gas chambers.

Now I am told that the camp residents all knew of atrocities being committed against even their children. Yet camp life, for the most part, overwhelmingly for the most part, remained business as usual.

What we being told now that happened during the Holocaust is like I imagine watching a toddler playing with 3 foot long toys to improve her hand eye coordination would be like.
 
Nick Terry said:
Sorry, not playing. The first photo doesn't look altered to me whereas the third photo looks very much airbrushed to me.

This shows how completely pointless it is to entertain photo-manipulation arguments when it's quite likely someone else will flatly disagree with you. Unless you have a properly sourced copy of the original print then pretty much any argument about a pic found on the internet is utterly worthless.

The first image hails from a denier blog. Deniers have been known to alter and massage images and sources to make their arguments look better, therefore how do I know whether to trust them *if* I accept *your* claim that the first photo "looks altered"? I don't. I'm not going to trust a denier blog on such an issue, ever, because of their track record of untrustworthiness.

The main problem with this line of anomaly-hunting bull faeces is that nobody has yet explained WHY anyone would add the standing man.
Click to expand...


Do you know where we can get hold of these pics from a source you trust, have any been posted already?

I can't see how you can deny that the first picture does not look altered around the arm/pillar? but as you say, who has altered it is another question.


I cannot see a reason why the man would be removed from the photo.

I can maybe see a reason why the man has been added (if done by the newpaper for propaganda reasons) as the title to the image is 'crowded bunks' and with the man the photo does look very crowded and without the man it looks like lots of empty bunks behind him.
 
marcus777 said:
Do you know where we can get hold of these pics from a source you trust
Click to expand...
Original photo in US government national archives.
http://research.archives.gov/description/535560


marcus777 said:
I can maybe see a reason why the man has been added (if done by the newpaper for propaganda reasons) as the title to the image is 'crowded bunks' and with the man the photo does look very crowded and without the man it looks like lots of empty bunks behind him.
Click to expand...
Research, for us, the date that the photo was first used by a newspaper with the man removed and compare it to the date of the original photo in the National Archives. Let us know the dates resulting from your research.
 
Clayton Moore said:
I agree.
I have been shocked at what I found to not have found.

I believed until the Internet.

At first I was told nobody outside the camps knew millions were being slain in gas chambers. I was told that few in the camps knew millions were being slain in gas chambers.

Now I am told that the camp residents all knew of atrocities being committed against even their children. Yet camp life, for the most part, overwhelmingly for the most part, remained business as usual.
What we being told now that happened during the Holocaust is like I imagine watching a toddler playing with 3 foot long toys to improve her hand eye coordination would be like.
Click to expand...

Given that you've been told and shown, repeatedly, that there was significant Jewish resistance, and you've ignored these points time and time again in order to weave your Monday Morning Quarterback narrative of What Should Have Happened, I hope you can understand why I place little trust in the accuracy of your recollections, Clay.
 
ANTPogo said:
We went over the deniers' nonsense regarding that particular photo right in this very thread earlier this year.
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AFAICT, the deniers are (erroneously) asserting this photo was altered to "conceal" empty bunks?

They already admit millions were imprisoned. They admit millions were starved. The photo shows gaunt, starving prisoners.

Empty bunks are indication of, what? Some empty bunks in a picture of starving people means those not in their bunks are at liberty, fat and happy? This makes it less horrific?

They built all those bunks for a reason. That some might be vacant (now) is just as ominous as not.
 
Have a look on the picture: Execution of Kiev Jews by German army mobile killing units (Einsatzgruppen) in "Wikipedia/Holocaust". The dead soldier on the ground (left of the shooter) is cropped out from all text book images known to myself. In fact it is the first firing squad kown to myself having own losses.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Kiev_Jew_Killings_in_Ivangorod_(1942).jpg

(Take the highest resolution and compare to the images known by yourself).

Then take the image titled: Rows of bodies of dead inmates fill the yard of Lager Nordhausen, a Gestapo concentration camp.jpg from the same page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R..._Nordhausen,_a_Gestapo_concentration_camp.jpg

Those are citizens of the city of Nordhausen and inmates of the Nordhausen camp after a British air raid on the city of Nordhausen, the camp having been one of the few structures having been left after the raid, dead bodies collected there.

Do you call that "honest" information of the people?.
 
Take another image from the same page, titled: Roma and Sinti suffered greatly as victims of Nazi persecution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_R_165_Bild-244-64,_Bestimmung_der_Augenfarbe.jpg

The original title is: "Determination of eye color". Those pictures can be found in Edwin Black's "War against the Weak - Eugenics and America's campaign to create a master race":

http://waragainsttheweak.com

or the image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Childwarsawghetto.jpg

titled: "A child dying in the streets of the Warsaw Ghetto".

That dying child is a tragedy, no doubt. Why 3 other well nutrished children are passing that child ignoring it: doesn't that need some further explanation?

Does it further count that the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EG_A_Šiauliai_Lithuania_July_1941.JPG titled "Men forced to dig their own graves by Einsatzgruppen troops" has a cook in the middle, some soldiers wearing German WWI helmets and the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N...sh_mass_grave_near_Zolochiv,_west_Ukraine.jpg obviously is a drawing?

Do you call that "honest" information of the people?.
 
So some photographs have been mis captioned, the notorious Ivanogorod photograph is a case in point. So what?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-ukraine-1942-what-are-we-seeing-6264646.html.

The Lithuanian aktions are well documented and this early one at Šiauliai was I think Einsatzgruppe A. At that time the squads were shooting men and older boys and not targetting women and children. None of the men are wearing pickelhaube either, they look like standard coal scuttle type German helmets - sans spikes - to me. The group sitting upon the ground are waiting to be executed, are you just being incredulous that a cook in whites has been picked up? If it even is a cook in his whites...

As for the Warsaw ghetto image, a common enough occurrence. People starved to death and bystanders regularly walked by. Not everything needs to be spelled out. You should try and find Janina Struk's book on photographing the Holocaust.

http://janinastruk.com/books/holocaust.html
 
Beause there is no reaction, let me continue. All images are found on the same page (English Wikipedia/Holocaust):

On the image from the alleged Stroop report (The boy with the hands in the air) "Stroop" carries a US Army jacket (compare the missing collar emblems which in a SS Scharführer like Stroop must be woven in gold to the correct collar emblems of the SS Sturmführer in the background), has a Polish helmet on his head (compare with the form of the German helmets of the soldiers standing around) and has either a British STEN Mark II or a German Schmeisser WWI submachine gun in his hands.
The soldier behind him wears a helmet which is missing the ventilation rivet (which is not a problem of image resolution, the rivet being visible on the helmet further in the background). Those helmets were called "Ausschuss" (defective) helmets and were distributed to fire fighters and air raid shelter wardens. The uniform jacket has no collar emblems which makes it evrything but a German Army uniform jacket.
Left of the boy are three female persons (3 heads). Those 3 perons have, counting the legs below, 8 legs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Stroop_Report_-_Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising_06b.jpg


"German Policemen Tormenting Jew": NONE of the persons on the image is wearing a German police uniform. Those are Finnish or Hungarian custom officials laughing at someone on the ground. That person could have simply slipped or could be drunk, the crowd making fun of him. Nowhere on the picture is any sign of torture. The German Army like uniform has no collar emblems (see above).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/GermanPoliceTormentingJew.JPG


"Announcement of Death Penalty for Poles helping Jews": The text says:

DEATH PENALTY FOR UNAUTHORIZED LEAVING OF THE JEWISH LIVING DISTRICT
In the last time it was proven in mulitiple cases that Jews leaving the assigned living space have distributed typhus. To protect the population from that hazard, the governor has ruled that Jews leaving their living space will be punished by the death penalty.
The same punishment is for persons who supply shelter to those Jews or render any other kind of assistance (e.g. by providing sleeping places, meals or rides on vehicles of all kind). Punishment will be rendered by local courts. I advise the complete population that those measures from now on will apply in all cases with unpleasant strength.

First of all that announcement is not threatening the death penalty to "Poles helping Jews" but to Poles, Germans and all others no matter which nationalities they might have, helping Jews escaping from a quarter which is under quarantine. Second, those quarantine measures, hard as they might have been, protected the population of Warsaw, which undoubtedly was Polish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:D...to_and_for_Poles_helping_Jews_anyway_1941.jpg


"German opponent of Nazism, executed at Dachau": That is the Gestapo file of Georg Elser, who planted a bomb during a Hitler speech in the Bürgerbräu Keller in Munich. Although Hitler escaped unharmed, 8 citizens were killed, 63 were severely injured. For such a criminal act people elsewhere are executed even today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gestapo-Akte_Georg_Elser_(Delikt).jpg
 
I'm not sure your point. Are you claiming the photos are deceptive in some fashion? If so:
MaxMurx said:
Take another image from the same page, titled: Roma and Sinti suffered greatly as victims of Nazi persecution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_R_165_Bild-244-64,_Bestimmung_der_Augenfarbe.jpg

The original title is: "Determination of eye color". Those pictures can be found in Edwin Black's "War against the Weak - Eugenics and America's campaign to create a master race":

http://waragainsttheweak.com
Click to expand...
What would be your issue with the same (historical) photo having different titles on different (modern) web sites?

or the image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Childwarsawghetto.jpg

titled: "A child dying in the streets of the Warsaw Ghetto".

That dying child is a tragedy, no doubt. Why 3 other well nutrished children are passing that child ignoring it: doesn't that need some further explanation?
Click to expand...
Is this is some form of Argument from Incredulity? I can imagine any number of reasons for the situation, none of which involving forgery.

Does it further count that the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EG_A_Šiauliai_Lithuania_July_1941.JPG titled "Men forced to dig their own graves by Einsatzgruppen troops" has a cook in the middle, some soldiers wearing German WWI helmets and the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N...sh_mass_grave_near_Zolochiv,_west_Ukraine.jpg obviously is a drawing?

Do you call that "honest" information of the people?.
Click to expand...
1) You do realize soldiers eat food several times a day? Are you presuming their cook would not look like a cook?

2) Is your claim every single German soldier in 1941 Lithuania was issued the most modern equipment? There were no home guard, militia, second tier, etc... with outdated equipment?
 
MaxMurx said:
Beause there is no reaction, let me continue. All images are found on the same page (English Wikipedia/Holocaust):

On the image from the alleged Stroop report (The boy with the hands in the air) "Stroop" carries a US Army jacket (compare the missing collar emblems which in a SS Scharführer like Stroop must be woven in gold to the correct collar emblems of the SS Sturmführer in the background), has a Polish helmet on his head (compare with the form of the German helmets of the soldiers standing around) and has either a British STEN Mark II or a German Schmeisser WWI submachine gun in his hands.
The soldier behind him wears a helmet which is missing the ventilation rivet (which is not a problem of image resolution, the rivet being visible on the helmet further in the background). Those helmets were called "Ausschuss" (defective) helmets and were distributed to fire fighters and air raid shelter wardens. The uniform jacket has no collar emblems which makes it evrything but a German Army uniform jacket.
Left of the boy are three female persons (3 heads). Those 3 perons have, counting the legs below, 8 legs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Stroop_Report_-_Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising_06b.jpg


"German Policemen Tormenting Jew": NONE of the persons on the image is wearing a German police uniform. Those are Finnish or Hungarian custom officials laughing at someone on the ground. That person could have simply slipped or could be drunk, the crowd making fun of him. Nowhere on the picture is any sign of torture. The German Army like uniform has no collar emblems (see above).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/GermanPoliceTormentingJew.JPG


"Announcement of Death Penalty for Poles helping Jews": The text says:

DEATH PENALTY FOR UNAUTHORIZED LEAVING OF THE JEWISH LIVING DISTRICT
In the last time it was proven in mulitiple cases that Jews leaving the assigned living space have distributed typhus. To protect the population from that hazard, the governor has ruled that Jews leaving their living space will be punished by the death penalty.
The same punishment is for persons who supply shelter to those Jews or render any other kind of assistance (e.g. by providing sleeping places, meals or rides on vehicles of all kind). Punishment will be rendered by local courts. I advise the complete population that those measures from now on will apply in all cases with unpleasant strength.

First of all that announcement is not threatening the death penalty to "Poles helping Jews" but to Poles, Germans and all others no matter which nationalities they might have, helping Jews escaping from a quarter which is under quarantine. Second, those quarantine measures, hard as they might have been, protected the population of Warsaw, which undoubtedly was Polish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:D...to_and_for_Poles_helping_Jews_anyway_1941.jpg


"German opponent of Nazism, executed at Dachau": That is the Gestapo file of Georg Elser, who planted a bomb during a Hitler speech in the Bürgerbräu Keller in Munich. Although Hitler escaped unharmed, 8 citizens were killed, 63 were severely injured. For such a criminal act people elsewhere are executed even today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gestapo-Akte_Georg_Elser_(Delikt).jpg
Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing out the usual lies and fabrications.
 
https://mail.google.com/mail/?source=navclient-ff#inbox/1425e4cd90447c91

It was only quite recently that Israel demanded from Germany a further 1 billion Euros ($1.4 billion) in Holocaust reparations for its endlessly traumatized Jewish survivors. Almost 70 years after World War II, the grim extortion racket continues unabated.

Though World War II ended sixty-eight years ago, the number of Holocaust survivors today is truly phenomenal. This prompted Norman Finkelstein’s mother to ask somewhat cynically, after she had been cheated out of her reparations money by the rabbis who administered the Holocaust Fund: “If everyone who claims to be a survivor actually is one, who did Hitler kill?”

Good question.
Click to expand...


Much of the article explains why the Holocaust smokescreen and brainwashing is so crucial 70 years after it allegedly took place.

http://www.rense.com/general79/hoilsurv.htm
 
A decisive topic? Yes, despite this, I am mostly saddened by some of the views presented in this thread!!

I maintain an opinion which I feel is formulated by fact and not fiction, nor by the need to agree simply because it is now considered popular to do so. I would instead welcome factual evidence from deniers which clearly disprove popular belief which is supported be a vast collection of evidence.

This a personal perspective only!
 
None of the men are wearing pickelhaube either, they look like standard coal scuttle type German helmets - sans spikes - to me.
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As early as in the war of 1870/1871 only 50% of the Germans wore the Prussian "Pickelhaube" (spiked helmet). South German troops participated only under the condition not to have to wear it (for completeness only: that war was declared by the French).
Very early during WWI the Germans realized that the spike (a protection of infantry soldiers against saber blows from cavalry troops) was useless.
In 1916 then the "M16" helmet was introduced which in 1918 was further developed into the "M18" (last two ciphers: years of introduction).
When the German army was reintroduced in 1933 that helmet was redesigned into the "M33", which further was developed into the "M36", "M39" and "M40". All generations were improvements of the last ones (the M46 currently is used by US Army and NATO troops only to show the advancements). There never was a shortage on helmets. The "M33" was also produced for the Chinese, Swiss, Austrian, Hungarian, Argentinian and Finnish armies. The Polish army however during WWII used the old German M18 from WWI.

Concerning the objection: What a luck that the alleged German soldiers don't wear Prussian WWI spiked helmets on the photograph. German troops in 1941 however wearing M16s, 5 generations and 25 years older than the current advanced version and a mass product being available worldwide, is some indication that the photo was staged. Especially if those allegedly having staged it used the old M16 during routine operations.
 
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