Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Why not hire a local gal?

Qwill said:
And yet he didn't fire her. Look at devious you, suggesting defamatory propaganda.

Machiavelli said:
But he changed her tasks, he sent her outside his pub to give leaflets. I am in fact correctly reporting sources: Lumumba himself made such declarations about Amanda, and the fact that he didn’t fire her (yet) does not make these facts go away. So they are facts not propaganda. Moreover, a bit of a context: this is Italy, here you don’t fire people from job in one day. Bosses operate much more cuatiously here.


Hi Machiavelli,
I've a couple of questions for you.

Is it standard practice in Italy to hire foreign college students for a job that many local Italian students, who speak the native language, could easly do?

Are any special work permits required by a foreign student to get a job in the community they study at in Perugia, Italy?

Does a potential employeer have any special paperwork to file in order to hire a foreign student worker?

Did Patrick Lumumba do so?

Lastly,
why do I seem to recall reading that PL was payin' Amanda under the table?

Thanks for a reply,
RW


ETA-PS:
Machiavelli said:
Knox left a job at the Bundestag after one day of work, which left her uncle dismayed. That was a very prestigious post for a 20 year old, a job he had struggled to manage to get her.


Who cares if Amanda Knox did not like the job that a distant family member found for her in a country far from home
and so she bailed after a day? More power to ya, girl!

Would you,
young + without kids and a mortgage, work a job that you knew was not right for you,
even if some distant family member gotcha that supposedly prestigous job?
Of course not!
:cool:

Or would you?
 
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A question for anyone who wants to answer it:

How likely do you think it is that the police simply presumed the boy's prank explanation for the bomb threat phone call because they could not, or did not determine who made the bomb threat phone call?
.

I think that is very possible that the evening of the call the police dismissed it after a casual investigation. As I recall, the police checked the toilets and found no bomb. Their initial response that evening to the lady of the estate may have been to put her at ease. "Nothing to worry about. Probably just someone playing with the phone."

After the phones found in the garden were identified as Meredith's and her murder was discovered, I think it is very likely that the police (Postal Police) investigated the toilet bomb call by checking phone records and questioning the caller's household. They were of course involved in discovering the body, but were then moved aside as the local police took over. Checking phones seems to be something the Postal Police could easily do. They have ready access to phone records. It is in their comfort zone - like recording cell phone conversations.

By the way, it was the Postal Police who damaged or destroyed the computers. It may have been one or two incompetent techs who did something wrong, repeatedly. They also surfed the Internet using the confiscated computers. Tells me they were unsupervised amateurs. I did read somewhere that a computer tech was fired for it.
 
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Yes I am suggesting she went to Peruga because she knew it was a party town (somethinh is widely known in Europe, and that we can reasonably infer she knew about from exchange students accounts, since Perugia was twinned with Seattle , and she chose Perugia also because there was a ‘university’ (the University of Foreigneers) which she could attend without any academic arrangement. Something she could not easily do elsewhere.


I am from Europe Machiavelli and I never heard of Perugia before the framing of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito,let alone know it is a party town,and I am 6000 miles nearer to Perugia than Amanda knox in Seattle,but what I do know now is that Perugia has a corrupt police force,a corrupt criminal justice system and kangaroo courts,and among its citizens perjurers can easily be found to give false evidence,as a matter of fact some of them are very experienced at this being veteran perjurers in a number of trials.And something I never heard of before the reporters for the local papers also act as go-betweens for prosecutors and members of the drug dealing community to provide witnesses in murder trials.


On the other hand I always knew a bit about Seattle,boeing aircraft Bill Gates the guy who started Amazon,while this case has made me wary of ever visiting Perugia if Amanda knox and her family and the people who came out to defend her are typical of Seattle it is a city I would love to visit
 
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On the other hand I always knew a bit about Seattle,boeing aircraft Bill Gates the guy who started Amazon,while this case has made me wary of ever visiting Perugia if Amanda knox and her family and the people who came out to defend her are typical of Seattle it is a city I would love to visit

And you'd be very welcome! We also claim credit for being home to the guy who started Starbucks. :D

I'm pretty shocked, to tell you the truth, that someone with Machiavelli's reputation for intellect and sharp commentary is so sloppy, oblivious to his own prejudice, and willing to distort random bits of trivia into defamatory claims.
 
"Is it standard practice in Italy to hire foreign college students for a job that many local Italian students, who speak the native language, could easly do?"
No, but you have to remember that Foxy Knoxy is a super-slut who can control any man who has fallen under her spell.
She wanted that job, she used her magic to get Patrick to hire her.


Are any special work permits required by a foreign student to get a job in the community they study at in Perugia, Italy?

Does a potential employeer have any special paperwork to file in order to hire a foreign student worker?

Did Patrick Lumumba do so? No Patrick is a liar who has no respect for the law, besides Amanda worked there for tips, she was not paid a salary.
 
Gotta love how Italians have obfuscation actually built into the structure of their language. LOL.

Well, it's not like they don't have the singular case in Italian. Machiavelli could have used it instead of the plural. We all know why he decided to use the plural though.
 
I think that is very possible that the evening of the call the police dismissed it after a casual investigation. As I recall, the police checked the toilets and found no bomb. Their initial response that evening to the lady of the estate may have been to put her at ease. "Nothing to worry about. Probably just someone playing with the phone."

After the phones found in the garden were identified as Meredith's and her murder was discovered, I think it is very likely that the police (Postal Police) investigated the toilet bomb call by checking phone records and questioning the caller's household. They were of course involved in discovering the body, but were then moved aside as the local police took over. Checking phones seems to be something the Postal Police could easily do. They have ready access to phone records. It is in their comfort zone - like recording cell phone conversations.
By the way, it was the Postal Police who damaged or destroyed the computers. It may have been one or two incompetent techs who did something wrong, repeatedly. They also surfed the Internet using the confiscated computers. Tells me they were unsupervised amateurs. I did read somewhere that a computer tech was fired for it.
.
Yes to the highlighted portion, but it is not always possible to determine the caller. For example the call could have originated from a public telephone, or a stolen cell phone or one with a stolen SIM card. So in that case, would they be likely to stick to the original presumed explanation, or retroactively correct it?
.
 
And you'd be very welcome! We also claim credit for being home to the guy who started Starbucks. :D

I'm pretty shocked, to tell you the truth, that someone with Machiavelli's reputation for intellect and sharp commentary is so sloppy, oblivious to his own prejudice, and willing to distort random bits of trivia into defamatory claims.


Credit..... shame..... what's the difference?! :p

I'm also going to be predictably pedantic here and restate once again that what people know (or think they know) about Knox, Seattle, Perugia, students in general, Sollecito, Knox's relationship with Sollecito, Lumumba, Le Chic, Guede's childhood, Meredith's relationship with the boys downstairs, the other girls' drug-taking habits.......

........ is all of virtually no importance when trying to assess the ONLY two relevant questions to this discussion:

1) Is there sufficient evidence to prove Knox's (and Sollecito's) guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? (A supplementary question is how much credible, reliable evidence of their guilt even exists at all, regardless of the reasonable doubt standard)

2) What is the closest educated guess we can get to the actual truth of what happened to Meredith Kercher in that cottage on that night, based on the available evidence (and lack of evidence)?


I repeat once more that every one of the "soft" factors in my list above is of absolutely no relevance to answering the first question, and can only be of very limited relevance to trying to answer the second question. Take, for instance, the relationship between Knox and Sollecito. Now, it's very true to say that it's pretty much totally unheard of for two well-educated people who've only known each other and been in a romantic relationship for six days to participate in a joint murder of a third person (or even to carry out some sort of assault on a third person which escalates to murder). But there's a chance - no matter how small - that this MIGHT happen, and that this might have been that one instance that it did happen.

So no matter whether you rate the chances as a 100:1 shot or even a 10,000:1 shot, occasionally that "1" is going to happen. You simply cannot, therefore, say rationally that the sort length of Knox's/Sollecito's relationship in any way "proves" that they couldn't have teamed up to murder Meredith. What you CAN say, however, is that all the known evidence indicates that it's massively unlikely that two people who'd only been together for under a week would commit murder together, and that this therefore tends to strongly support the notion that Knox and Sollecito were, at the very least, not jointly involved in the murder.

And you can treat every other "soft" factor in this way. But in terms of the judicial guilt/non-guilt of Knox and Sollecito, the ONLY thing that matters is evidence directly related to their involvement in the murder itself - or, in this case, the complete lack of credible, reliable evidence pointing in that direction.

In trying to answer the second question (what is the closest we can guess to the truth?) soft factors have a slightly larger role to play, but again you have to go back to the actual evidence directly pertaining to the crime for the vast majority of the answer. And in this case, the answer is this:

Guede broke into the deserted cottage, hoping to steal valuables to sell for cash; Meredith came home unexpectedly at 9pm; there was, for some reason, a confrontation between Guede and Meredith (very possibly because Guede found he could not exit stealthily through the now-locked front door); Guede ended up stabbing and sexually assaulting (and/or raping) Meredith; Guede cleaned blood from his skin and trousers in the small bathroom, and mopped up some of the blood in Meredith's room with towels; Guede went towards the front door to exit, but turned back - probably because he realised that he did not have the key he needed; Guede returned to Meredith's room, took her keys, cash and bank cards, took her phones and tried to turn them both off (pressing random dialled numbers in the process); Guede left Meredith's room, locked her door behind him, unlocked the front door, and exited the cottage without bothering to re-lock the door behind him; Guede took the quieter, darker route home outside the city wall, throwing away Meredith's phones on the way; he returned to his apartment, met some friends, and went dancing in the city-centre clubs into the small hours; he fled to Germany some 36 hours later.
 
Look, I don't recall his name (their names, actually, since it was a trial against three drug dealers), but I know his attorneys. He dealt with cocaine.

You don't know his name. Why am I not surprised.

But let's pursue this further.

Do you know the circumstances through which this unnamed individual was in contact with Amanda? Do you know if these circumstances had anything to do with drugs? Do you know whether he was selling drugs at the time when he was in contact with her, or whether she would have known if he was?

This information would be necessary to establish any meaningful claim pertaining to her acquaintance with this person, assuming even that much is true. It can be left comfortably vague if the only point is to throw out a drive-by smear. That is what you and your ilk excel in doing. It is the only thing you do well. You are an absolute master of greasy, lecherous, malicious innuendo. Your mother must be so proud.
 
"Is it standard practice in Italy to hire foreign college students for a job that many local Italian students, who speak the native language, could easly do?"
No, but you have to remember that Foxy Knoxy is a super-slut who can control any man who has fallen under her spell.She wanted that job, she used her magic to get Patrick to hire her.


Hi Xinonix,
Ya know something? I've heard that before...

Heck it seems like Raffaele Sollecito fell under the spell,
esh, he even signed on the dotted line, so to say, and decided,
(even though he was to graduate college in a few weeks!)
that a week with Foxy Knoxy was worth 25 years in jail...
:boggled:


I wonder how Machiavelli woulda handled that all night interrogation,
errr, that week with The Volpe Cattiva?
 
Hi Xinonix,
Ya know something? I've heard that before...

Heck it seems like Raffaele Sollecito fell under the spell,
esh, he even signed on the dotted line, so to say, and decided,
(even though he was to graduate college in a few weeks!)
that a week with Foxy Knoxy was worth 25 years in jail...
:boggled:

I wonder how Machiavelli woulda handled that all night interrogation, errr, that week with The Volpe Cattiva?
.
Machi would have got them so confused and exasperated, they themselves would have confessed to the murder. :D
.
 
But in terms of the judicial guilt/non-guilt of Knox and Sollecito, the ONLY thing that matters is evidence directly related to their involvement in the murder itself - or, in this case, the complete lack of credible, reliable evidence pointing in that direction.

"The ONLY thing that matters . . .", you write. Does that mean that Machiavelli's wishes don't count ??? That they don't determine guilt or innocence?
 
That's what happens when post after post after post it is serious and then we think we are clever with our little irony or sarcasm. Everyone goes right past it and both the comedian and the audience are embarrassed. :o:(


Even worse, some folks actually believe what I wrote isn't a joke
 
You don't know his name. Why am I not surprised.

But let's pursue this further.

Do you know the circumstances through which this unnamed individual was in contact with Amanda? Do you know if these circumstances had anything to do with drugs? Do you know whether he was selling drugs at the time when he was in contact with her, or whether she would have known if he was?

This information would be necessary to establish any meaningful claim pertaining to her acquaintance with this person, assuming even that much is true. It can be left comfortably vague if the only point is to throw out a drive-by smear. That is what you and your ilk excel in doing. It is the only thing you do well. You are an absolute master of greasy, lecherous, malicious innuendo. Your mother must be so proud.

I wonder if Machiavelli believes in a vengeful God? There are some more conservative expressions of Roman Catholicism which do. I hope he's not in one of those groups, or it might get a little warm in the afterlife.

Here's someone who will openly admit to spreading unverified (to him at least) villainy about someone who he's never met, all the while calling those who question a "Dr." title "criminals".

Sometimes it becomes apparent what this is all about - and how isolated and few those who protect Mignini and his reputation are.
 
And you'd be very welcome! We also claim credit for being home to the guy who started Starbucks. :D

I'm pretty shocked, to tell you the truth, that someone with Machiavelli's reputation for intellect and sharp commentary is so sloppy, oblivious to his own prejudice, and willing to distort random bits of trivia into defamatory claims.

BOEING,
MICROSOFT,
AMAZON,
STARBUCKS
PACCAR
CELLULAR ONE...which became AT&T WIRELESS.
ETC.

I was really shocked when the accusations of Satanic rituals and some articles suggesting that this was some dark secret about Seattle. Having lived in and around Seattle for more than 40 years, I found that to be an incredibly bizarre notion.

Hearing that about Seattle emanating out of truly ancient Perugia really makes you go hmm..

Perugia where anything that is less than 500 years old is considered modern?

Everything about Seattle is about tomorrow. The city and its people are always looking forward. A city that hosted the Worlds Fair in 1961 and the theme was the 21st century and science. A city who's icon is the Space Needle. A city of glass high rises and an industrial base of jets, aerospace, semis, computers, biotechnology and the internet. Superstition isn't really part of the culture in Seattle, but I certainly can see how it might be in Perugia.

Satanic rituals taking place in Seattle. I doubt it.
 
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Some people grow up with a worldview that hasn't really changed from the middle ages. They believe that Satan walks the Earth and see the devil's work everyplace they look.
 
I'm also going to be predictably pedantic here and restate once again that what people know (or think they know) about Knox, Seattle, Perugia, students in general, Sollecito, Knox's relationship with Sollecito, Lumumba, Le Chic, Guede's childhood, Meredith's relationship with the boys downstairs, the other girls' drug-taking habits.......

........ is all of virtually no importance when trying to assess the ONLY two relevant questions to this discussion:

1) Is there sufficient evidence to prove Knox's (and Sollecito's) guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? (A supplementary question is how much credible, reliable evidence of their guilt even exists at all, regardless of the reasonable doubt standard)

2) What is the closest educated guess we can get to the actual truth of what happened to Meredith Kercher in that cottage on that night, based on the available evidence (and lack of evidence)?

Well . . . I want to agree with you, but I don't. Your analysis would be exactly right if this were 2007. The two questions you named should always have been the only focus of any rational discussion; it's certain that Amanda and Raffaele both believed that since there could never be evidence that they'd done something they hadn't done, their arrests would quickly be recognized to be a mistake and they would be freed. There was no rational discussion, and no focus on those two questions. Instead, relentless character assassination.

While I hope the court is trying once again to focus on evidence -- because it can only lead to an acquittal -- it's never going to be okay to let cheap, silly drive-by smears of their character go unchallenged. These two students have been turned into monsters by a greedy press and a pack of online sadists.
 
Some people grow up with a worldview that hasn't really changed from the middle ages. They believe that Satan walks the Earth and see the devil's work everyplace they look.

And one of them posts here and it isn't Mach. They see conspiracies everywhere.
 
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A question for anyone who wants to answer it:

How likely do you think it is that the police simply presumed the boy's prank explanation for the bomb threat phone call because they could not, or did not determine who made the bomb threat phone call?
.


Not much chance. This is Italy where the phone companies are requires by law to track all calls. The only possibility for there even being a delay in acquiring the call origin is if the call went to a cell phone of Lana's with a foreign sim. Now you are also talking about international prank calls.

There is a possibility that the call origin was traced only to a cell number belonging to a kid in Rome. The police in Rome would have quickly extracted a confession from the kid and dropped it after the parents paid a moderate fine. But that doesn't preclude the phone's sim having been duplicated by criminals for emergency untraceable one time use and as a result some poor innocent kid in Rome has had his phone priveledged grounded for life.
 
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