Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I want to add to my earlier post Mary. I kind of got a little angry there. Sorry. I'm a strong believer in women's ..no people's rights. Women are as capable and in many cases far more capable then men. And there is no question that women have gotten the short end of the stick, far more often than they should. It's also true that men have subjugated women since the beginning of time. That isn't right.

I would want my daughter (theoretical) to have the same opportunities as a son. I'm also not sure why women who demonstrate themselves to be just as capable as men in the sciences and engineering often give up on it in their late teens or in college. It's an interesting dynamic and something that should be explored.

I do think however that I haven't seen any out and out sexism on this forum. If I have engaged in any unconsciously or subconsciously, my apologies. Feel free to point out my my faux pas'. I would like to know.

It's very subtle, acbytesla. It takes some study to become aware of it. I have nothing against you as a person, so please don't take this the wrong way, but you just provided an example of the mechanism when you wrote this:

"I'm also not sure why women who demonstrate themselves to be just as capable as men in the sciences and engineering often give up on it in their late teens or in college. It's an interesting dynamic and something that should be explored."

I just told you that there has been attrition of women in this thread, and I offered my own feelings about being ignored as a possible reason why. We could explore the dynamic right here and now, if we really found it interesting. Believe it or not, it's not off-topic, at least not in my opinion.

(Thank you for your apology. :))
 
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Have you been hanging out with BW and Tesla?

BW, yes. And he was polite enough to pay for my meal and drinks. ;)

No Rudy didn't want the phones found and it is not so easy to dispose of evidence as you believe.<snip>

Then where is the real murder weapon and Meredith's keys?
 
BW, yes. And he was polite enough to pay for my meal and drinks. ;)

Then where is the real murder weapon and Meredith's keys?

Ask BW. Probably with the interrogation recordings he promised.:p

Rudy took the stuff with him to Germany and dropped them somewhere along the way. Unlike the kids he wasn't a roommate that knew they would be interviewed.

By the way, I would look at BW supposed largess as a bribe to take his side and it seems to have worked. :p

You should side with me because my efforts to increase the precision of language and logic must be girl friendly ;)
 
It's very subtle, acbytesla. It takes some study to become aware of it. I have nothing against you as a person, so please don't take this the wrong way, but you just provided an example of the mechanism when you wrote this:

"I'm also not sure why women who demonstrate themselves to be just as capable as men in the sciences and engineering often give up on it in their late teens or in college. It's an interesting dynamic and something that should be explored."

I just told you that there has been attrition of women in this thread, and I offered my own feelings about being ignored as a possible reason why. We could study the dynamic right here and now, if we really found it interesting. Believe it or not, it's not off-topic, at least not in my opinion.

(Thank you for your apology. :))

I'm not sure what the reason is for an attrition of women on this post. I'm not convinced at all that there is a "sexist" reason for that attrition. There may be some male/female reason that us men are hanging in there debating this case. Frankly, I think it shows that there is probably something inherently wrong with us that makes us do this. :o

I assure you there is no intention at all to ignore you or any poster. I just respond to the posts that specifically interest me. So it is not the poster I reply to, but the post itself. What that means, I don't know. Is there some subtle sexist element involved that I am not aware of? I'm still not convinced, but I certainly will give it some thought. Feel free if you want to PM me directly as opposed to posting on the open forum. (if you wish).

Again, please accept my apologies and thanks for the little smack along side my head. Sometimes I definitely need it.
 
<snip>FWIW, I think many times there is a disconnect once the page flips over to a new page. I have found most people do not go back very far to read what has transpired. I have actually become frustrated and snippy in other threads because someone will come along and chime in without having read what was just discussed on the prior page or so. I'm not saying that is what happened here, just that it is a potentially similar situation I have witnessed on this forum.

I agree, AofV, that that is definitely a phenomenon.

I'm sure we all have a tendency to skip over certain people's posts when we have three or more pages of posts to catch up on. The question is how you choose whose posts to skim instead of reading them carefully. I tend to skim posters who are perpetually long-winded, who can talk about only one subject, or who never bring anything original to the discussion (which I discover over time, not because of prejudice).

My worry here is the (possibly natural) human tendency for people in a dominant group to automatically skip over input from members of a minority group without really being aware they are doing it.
 
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I don't think that was me, Strozzi, but I appreciate the support. :)

Mary, you are of course correct. I have confused you and Supernaut. It is Supernaut who definitively explained why Rudy left no shoe prints in the hall.

I am posting Supernaut's comment below.

"let's just get this straight;

there's nothing "mysterious" about the foot-print Guede left on the mat in the bathroom.

After he'd slaughtered Meredith, he sat on her bed, putting his knife down to his left (where it left the bloody imprint), took off his right shoe and then went into the (adjacent) bathroom to clean up.

He rinsed the shoe that he'd carried there, and his blood-soaked pant-leg under the shower, but didn't take enough time to get the water from the pant-leg to run clear, hence the foot-print.

In doing all this, he left no other tracks.

This, apparently, is such uniquely brilliant deduction that I seem to be the only one on the planet to have figgered it out.

(Shakes head)."
 
I'm not sure what the reason is for an attrition of women on this post. I'm not convinced at all that there is a "sexist" reason for that attrition. There may be some male/female reason that us men are hanging in there debating this case. Frankly, I think it shows that there is probably something inherently wrong with us that makes us do this. :o<smip>

You know, that occurred to me. Not in terms of men vs. women, but in terms of why some of us seem to have so much time on our hands. ;)

I assure you there is no intention at all to ignore you or any poster. I just respond to the posts that specifically interest me. So it is not the poster I reply to, but the post itself. What that means, I don't know. Is there some subtle sexist element involved that I am not aware of? I'm still not convinced, but I certainly will give it some thought. Feel free if you want to PM me directly as opposed to posting on the open forum. (if you wish).

Again, please accept my apologies and thanks for the little smack along side my head. Sometimes I definitely need it.

You weren't even the offender in this case, acbytesla, but you are definitely getting extra points for trying so hard to address the issue. :)
 
It's because he continues to post as if these things are not issues. It's as if one ignores a real, live issue long enough it takes on the appearance of being a non-issue.

Machiavelli/Yummi is even more tenacious than me. He's been spreading the same BS for years. That's why it is important to become clear in one's own mind what they're asking of him - and not to be distracted by the spin Machiavelli wants to put on things.

Witness his whole thing (above) about claiming that it is Vecchiotti who is "cheating", or that it is Vecchiotti who is "the criminal."

This is distraction extraodinaire..... it's as if he repeats it enough, it suddenly becomes true (...)

I shouldn't need to repeat it actually, because the transcripts speak by themselves. They are obvious to any neutral reader, who is not part of the Pro-Knox cult.

The only reason for my repetition, is the more or less biased or specious attempts of rebuttals.
Some people have some more 'honest' arguments (Davefoc, Ampulla of Vater, Grinder) yet they are still within a confirmation bias IMO. The others are just wild rationalizations, sometimes completely detached from facts.

(or at the very least distracts other posters in trying to defend Vecchiotti from what is an absurd contention to begin with. Why even dignify it with a response. It's a diversion, and that's all Machiavelli needs to accomplish.)

You don't think Vecchiotti is the problem?
I do think Vecchiotti is the problem.
You think Vogt is the problem?
I don't think Vogt is the problem.
Believe me I do believe that.

This "method" in fact was the problem from the beginning with the sluttification of Amanda Knox and the selling of the Foxy Knoxy myth.

(...)

That's Machiavelli's methodology. He hides behind innuendo. He's said that it would not surprise him if Rudy Guede had been Amanda Knox's pimp... given that he believes there's a student-culture there of girls trading sex for drugs. This becomes part of Machiavelli's vilification of Knox through innuendo... but the point is...

This is your innuendo. Your job as a posters consists in falsely attributing statements. Twisting the words and the assrtions of others. You make a dietrology about posters (and about any source inconveniet to you: Vogt, Mignini, the Kerchers, Nadeau etc.).

You falsely asserted that Massei found no psychopathology. You falsely asserted that I stated that Mignini was doing a 'damage control' with Spezi; the number of cases of your misreporting of other words is amazing: you are a systematic mystifier abou others's tatements. You put things in the mouth of people. You don't get people to say things: you make up things yourself directly, then you attempt to have people say something that could ring vaguely similar, tha could be twisted to look close enough. Then you attribute your "comment" to the source you want (Massei, Machiavelli, Vogt etc.).
Now you falsely report that I said Guede may be Knox's pimp. It's not the first time that I corrected your misreporting.
I explicitly said that Guede could NOT be Knox's pimp - at best, Guede could have been Knox's client, if Knox was a prostitute.
but I never said Knox had the moral of a prostitute or that she was a prostitute: again, you are falsely reporting my words.
Knox was a party girl, not a prostitute. A prostitute has a different moral, she does things for money not for fun.
And Knox does not have any particular moral qualification: she just had her attitude, and her lifestile, like legitimately any person has.
But having casual sex with Guede would be consistent with her lifestyle, and also with the information we have (in via Garibaldi in Perugia she met a young man she described as 'the most beautiful black man she ever met', and they promised to each other they would meet again as she would return from Germany; how many black man do you think you can meet in via Garibaldi in Perugia? And what was his name?).

.... then other guilter/haters start accepting as fact that Knox and Rudy had a prior relationship, and that Knox was of morals loose enough to have been a prostitute....

I also recall that Knox's phone number was found in the cell phone memory of a drug dealer, who was convicted.

But Machiavelli's methodology continues. He posts for week that Mignini had never advanced a Satanic Rite theory of this crime. Truly, I could care less WHAT Mignini ever advanced - the man is looney-tunes. I actually have no interest in either proving or disproving this - as witnessed by my posts.

Interesting; this means you make a claim, you word such claim as if it was a fact, and you have no interesting in knowing if it's true or not.
And, you accuse others of spreading false truths based on innuendo.
But you lecture about methodology....

(...) I am asking Machiavelli if this now makes Andrea Vogt an "approximate reporter", that's all. It's not any more complex than that. If he can claim to have documentation proving the contention wrong, that Andrea did NOT report this about C&V, then Machiavelli has shown more than enough talent to produce the counter evidence, rather than just say, in effect, "no comment". He's not even saying that it would be impolite to produce counter evidence, he's just refusing to comment. Period.

Sure he dresses it up a bit, but that's what he's saying, really. "No comment". Fair enough. He has that right.

No no, my 'no comment' is not about what Vogt says. It's about what you claim Vogt says.

Because the key point is that you are a mystifier of other people's words. You twist them and then you attempt to 'use' your twisted crooked version for your purposes.
This is what you do.
You do nothing but this.

Once is the Kerchers, onece Vogt, once Nadeau, once Machiavelli (myself), etc.

So there is a big difference, from start, between what you say Vogt said, and what Vogt said.

Then you are even more oblique, since you try to use your 'elicited' and 'interpreted' versions not to argue about some 'topic X' directly, but about 'what some other indierect source said about the topic X'.
This devious propaganda is your activity.
However, the paroxysm is that you are there to say other people are 'distracting', are 'diverting attention', away from the 'topics' you would like to talk about.

You are not interested in verifying whether Mignini alleged a Satanic scenario.
In fact, you are not interested in any topic.
I am only interested in exchanging analysis with people who intend discuss information about things related to the the case. Actual information, direct information. Bill William's own definition of events, his filtered summary of his view, is not a 'topic' for comment to start with.
 
Since we can't isolate things here or at least many can't process things without bring their biases into the convo, I'll use the discredited technique myself. They knew that the vast majority of cuts came from another knife and may well have known that the knife wasn't used for any of the injuries and therefore had no worries about taking it home and rinsing it off.

I could hide a knife right now but I'm not worried about someone watching me because I didn't just kill someone.

. . . just because people don't look "that crazy" on TV doesn't mean they aren't crazy or weren't crazy at some other point in time. How often have we heard that the perp was a great neighbor and good guy?

I actually don't know of a lot of those cases. What I've often heard is that the person was quiet and kept to himself. Ted Bundy comes to mind as one who seemed more social, but all his "great guy" accolades came from people he worked with and not those who knew him better. (A woman who lived with Ted Bundy actually turned his name in to the Seattle police when he was murdering women here. They ignored her. I met her years ago at a party, believe it or not.)

My point is that after six years and not a single person close to either Amanda or Raffaele raising their hand to say they always knew something was off, you can have a much higher level of certainty that nothing was off. This is not bringing bias into a convo, it's looking at the big picture.
 
You know, that occurred to me. Not in terms of men vs. women, but in terms of why some of us seem to have so much time on our hands. ;)
I know the answer for me...I'm a little insane. ;)
You weren't even the offender in this case, acbytesla, but you are definitely getting extra points for trying so hard to address the issue. :)

Goodiee.. I hope I can trade the points in for something good. ;)
 
My goal is to see what YOU say about it. You choose not to say anything, either to confirm or deny.

If your goal is to see what I say about something, than you need to quote something.

Truth is that you've called Nadeau an approximate reporter in similar circumstances.

No, the "truth" does not belong to you. This is not the "truth", this is just (again) your slanted, personal definition of "similar circumsntances".

And I repeat it, in case you forget it: I never conceded that Nadeau said the things you claim. I am waiting for you to prove that.
 
<snip>My point is that after six years and not a single person close to either Amanda or Raffaele raising their hand to say they always knew something was off, you can have a much higher level of certainty that nothing was off. This is not bringing bias into a convo, it's looking at the big picture.

Good point.
 
Now you falsely report that I said Guede may be Knox's pimp. It's not the first time that I corrected your misreporting.
I explicitly said that Guede could NOT be Knox's pimp - at best, Guede could have been Knox's client, if Knox was a prostitute.
but I never said Knox had the moral of a prostitute or that she was a prostitute: again, you are falsely reporting my words.
Knox was a party girl, not a prostitute. A prostitute has a different moral, she does things for money not for fun.
And Knox does not have any particular moral qualification: she just had her attitude, and her lifestile, like legitimately any person has.
But having casual sex with Guede would be consistent with her lifestyle, and also with the information we have (in via Garibaldi in Perugia she met a young man she described as 'the most beautiful black man she ever met', and they promised to each other they would meet again as she would return from Germany; how many black man do you think you can meet in via Garibaldi in Perugia? And what was his name?).

<........ sinister deletia ..........>


You are not interested in verifying whether Mignini alleged a Satanic scenario.
In fact, you are not interested in any topic.
I am only interested in exchanging analysis with people who intend discuss information about things related to the the case. Actual information, direct information. Bill William's own definition of events, his filtered summary of his view, is not a 'topic' for comment to start with.

Wow.... I DO get under you skin don't I? For someone who think my posts are not worthy of comment, you certainly DO comment on them!?

Two things of note. I had a good, good laugh at your claim, above, that you had never said that Knox was a prostitute... you make an even more bizarre claim in its place.

And second, you still have not answered whether or not YOU think Andrea Vogt is an "approximate reporter" for her reporting about C&V in light of the RIS Carabinieri report to the Nencini court.

You are so invested in avoding this question that you spent (how many minute) trying to address my issues, when a couple of clicks could have proven me wrong with your own posting of what Andrea Vogt said.

See? This is what happened last time - you said you had transcripts from hearings which proves Mignini never once advanced a Satanic Rite theory. Then you said the reason you're not posting them was because it would be impolite so to do.

Machiavelli - you are proving my claims about your methodology.

Keep posting, buddy. You're making this easy to demonstrate what you're all about.

*I'm still chuckling about the way you avoid dealing with your previous theories that Guede was Knox's pimp, which morphed into Knox trading sec for drugs which meant your claim about prostitution was somewhat mitigated, and now you're saying ti was simply a "party-girl liaison".

Keep posting Machiavelli.

While you're at it - is Andrea Vogt an "approximate reporter" for her comments about C&V and the Nencini court?
 
<snip>... also with the information we have (in via Garibaldi in Perugia she met a young man she described as 'the most beautiful black man she ever met', and they promised to each other they would meet again as she would return from Germany; how many black man do you think you can meet in via Garibaldi in Perugia?<snip>

About 1,000.

In 2007, there were 163,287 people residing in Perugia, located in the province of Perugia, Umbria, of whom 47.7% were male and 52.3% were female. Minors (children ages 18 and younger) totalled 16.41 percent of the population compared to pensioners who number 21.51 percent. This compares with the Italian average of 18.06 percent (minors) and 19.94 percent (pensioners). The average age of Perugia residents is 44 compared to the Italian average of 42. In the five years between 2002 and 2007, the population of Perugia grew by 7.86 percent, while Italy as a whole grew by 3.85 percent.[27]

As of 2006, 90.84% of the population was Italian. The largest immigrant group came from other European countries (particularly from Albania and Romania): 3.93%, the Americas: 2.01%, and North African: 1.3%. The majority of inhabitants are Roman Catholic.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perugia#Demographics

1.3% x 163,287 = 2122.731/2 (genders) = 1061.3655
 
BW, yes. And he was polite enough to pay for my meal and drinks. ;)



Then where is the real murder weapon and Meredith's keys?

I doubt Rudy would get rid of the phones but hold onto the bloody knife as he walked home on a circuitous route. I believe he discarded the knife first as the most incriminating item. (The phones were of temporary potential value until he could examine them to try to locate banking info. (phone records show someone dialed Meredith's bank' phone number with one of her phones but erred in not including the UK country code.)

The real murder weapon could be along the route Rudy walked between Meredeth's house and Rudy's flat. Probably discarded before or near the walled estate where he threw the phones over the wall. He certainly would have dumped it the moment he saw police, if he did in fact see any on his way past the estate.

Here are my questions:
1). How far and wide did the police search for a knife?
2). Did they look for several days or just for a little while?
3). Did they use a metal detector? When and where?
4). When police officer Finzi opened Raffaele's cutlery drawer and took out the first big knife, did he really think it could be the murder knife?
5). Why didn't he collect all the kitchen knives for forensic examination?
6). Did a senior officer tell him "Find me a knife?"
 
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I actually don't know of a lot of those cases. What I've often heard is that the person was quiet and kept to himself. Ted Bundy comes to mind as one who seemed more social, but all his "great guy" accolades came from people he worked with and not those who knew him better. (A woman who lived with Ted Bundy actually turned his name in to the Seattle police when he was murdering women here. They ignored her. I met her years ago at a party, believe it or not.)

My point is that after six years and not a single person close to either Amanda or Raffaele raising their hand to say they always knew something was off, you can have a much higher level of certainty that nothing was off. This is not bringing bias into a convo, it's looking at the big picture.

You nailed it there Kwill.

I took a class at the UW taught by Bob Keppel. He was one of the lead Seattle detectives on the Ted Bundy case. He interviewed Bundy multiple times including days before his execution in Florida. He also was a lead member of the Green River Task force. According to Keppel, Bundy was social to a degree. He was quite involved in the Republican party and was very friendly in social situations involving his career and work. He definitely had friends and was well liked by some people. But he was also known to be cruel and very much a loner when he began his obsession with killing. So for all the people that said he was a nice guy, there were others who said. not really.
 
The time of death presented by the prosecution in the first trial was based on body temperature readings. The problem is that the readings were taken after midnight on the day the body was found. A measurement that long after death (at least 24 hours) is far from precise. Meredith dying at 9 pm would be well within the expected error from such a measurement.

Stomach contents were mentioned at the first trial, but I am not sure that passage into the duodenum was brought up. It was however in the documents for the first appeal.

This is why we really need a wiki or something, because in the ~95000 posts dedicated to this topic we've been over this repeatedly but there is no easy way to direct people to the relevant discussion.

The Massei/Christiani report does quite a marvellous tapdance around the stomach contents evidence, in such a way that it convinces me that Massei/Christiani were well aware on some level that the story they were telling was broken. (Interestingly there is evidence that some of the most staunch pro-guilt partisans, including Michael/Fulcanelli, are also well aware that the Massei/Christiani timeline is broken and the conviction was based on a false narrative. I suspect but cannot prove that Machiavelli is similarly aware of the weakness in the prosecution case).

Massei/Christiani firstly allow that in the normal course of events Meredith Kercher could not possibly have died at 11:30pm. Then they appeal to a story told by Ronchi that if the guy who did the autopsy, Lalli, had botched the autopsy by not tying off Meredith Kercher's digestive system into discrete sections then possibly Meredith Kercher could actually have died at 11:30pm.

Now even a casual reader will probably think that this is a very tenuous explanation because Massei/Christiani have not shown that Lalli actually did botch the autopsy, they have merely shown that if Lalli did botch the autopsy it would explain the stomach contents results and still allow an 11:30 time of death. This is a terribly dangerous argument to allow because using similar reasoning a malicious judge could chuck out absolutely any piece of exculpatory evidence, because it's always remotely possible someone screwed it up.

I would not want to be a defendant in a case where the prosecution's evidence gets let in no matter how suspect its provenance, as long as they claim it's probably right, while vital defence evidence is chucked out entirely on the grounds that it might possibly be wrong.

However a more informed reader will know that Massei and Christiani had seen the autopsy video, and had access to view it again if they wanted, and hence knew or should have known that Lalli did indeed tie off Meredith Kercher's bowels in the normal fashion. Hence the autopsy was not botched and the Massei/Christiani report has absolutely no excuse whatsoever for allowing a time of death after 10:30pm

That alone utterly torpedoes the entire prosecution narrative, because eyewitnesses, computer forensics evidence or prosecution witnesses the case cannot do without together rule out every possible time of death before 11:30pm or so, if Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are to have anything to do with the murder.
 
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Machiavelli - it was particularly entertaining that you put quote marks around the word "honest" when describing other people you still regard as pro-knox cultists.

Remind me never to let you make such backhanded compliments about me !!!

I guess there's no problem that that will happen soon.

You're a strange dude. Are you ready to answer? Is Vogt an "approximate reporter"? You want to answer, I know you eventually will.
 
you are a systematic mystifier abou others's tatements.

Knox was a party girl, not a prostitute. A prostitute has a different moral, she does things for money not for fun.

. . . having casual sex with Guede would be consistent with her lifestyle, and also with the information we have (in via Garibaldi in Perugia she met a young man she described as 'the most beautiful black man she ever met'

I also recall that Knox's phone number was found in the cell phone memory of a drug dealer, who was convicted.

. . . you make a claim, you word such claim as if it was a fact, and you have no interesting in knowing if it's true or not.

This devious propaganda is your activity.

:D The man is so very self-aware.

Srsly, Knox was a party girl, Knox having sex with Guede would be consistent with her life style, Knox's phone # was in the cell of a convicted drug dealer . . . this is nothing but devious propaganda.

You leave out certain information, don't you? Knox was an honor student. Knox had a total of 7 lovers, well within the norm for her age and demographic (are all average American students party girls?). Knox is responsible for a drug dealer having her phone number, though there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that she actually bought any drugs.

To repeat you:This devious propaganda is your activity.
 
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