Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Actually she does do that, in my opinion. She does that over the hearings between August and September 2011. But the problem is, you are not putting a corrupt judge into the equation.

Indeed Comodi brought the negative controls, and the chanhellery records; but the judge (Pratillo Helmann) simply declined to accept them, on the ground that "the contamination could have occurred outside the laboratory" (I'm not joking, that was the reason given by Hellmann-Zanetti's court).

On the other hand, Vcchiotti basically refused to read them, saying she couldn't understand them, she would need time to read them, the photocopies were bad, she needed glasses, didn't understand reference pages and so on.

Comodi belied Vecchiotti but the problem is Vecchiotti is only a court's ploy. It's not Vecchiotti cheating alone, it looks like a team game lining up Vecchiotti and the judge.
Why is it that I believe you are leading up to all this being a Masonic conspiracy?

Do you now believe that the RIS Carabinieri is part of a Masonic conspiracy? Is Andrea Vogt part of the Masonic conspiracy for saying that the C&V report is now, essentially, in front of the Nencini court for consideration?
 
Thank you for the info. I don't see anything in it to suggest that Meredith was not respectful of Amanda's position with her employer. In fact, just the opposite. It shows Meredith is a fun party girl (she has her own special highball recipe) which seems to fit with what Amanda was and the two girls would have had fun together at the bar with Meredith serving up her special Mojito. They would have invited their friends and Italian guys to come. Tips would be good. Lumumba's cash register would have rung loud that night (unless he had it set to "silent" tax evading mode. :D ).

Has there ever been any support for claiming that Meredith knew anything about Amanda's job or mojitos, other than from the so-called, alleged interview with Patrick in the Daily Mail? I read Amanda's book but I can't remember if she mentioned it.
 
Machiavelli. Your argument is now with Andrea Vogt. Andrea Vogt now blogs that the RIS Carabinieri submission to the Nencini court in essence debunks Stefanoni's work, and that the C&V report is now before the Nencini court as it was in front of the Hellmann court. (...)

Do you think I am unable to read the RIS report?
 
Thank you for the info. I don't see anything in it to suggest that Meredith was not respectful of Amanda's position with her employer. In fact, just the opposite. It shows Meredith is a fun party girl (she has her own special highball recipe) which seems to fit with what Amanda was and the two girls would have had fun together at the bar with Meredith serving up her special Mojito. They would have invited their friends and Italian guys to come. Tips would be good. Lumumba's cash register would have rung loud that night (unless he had it set to "silent" tax evading mode. :D ).


I sure wish I had been available to wow the customers in Lumumba's hip and happening bar in the last months of 2007. After all, I was singlehandedly responsible* for introducing the Caipirinha into the UK cocktails lexicon back in the mid/late-90s - and it's been a super-fashionable and "in-the-know" choice ever since....

* In my own mind, anyhow :D
 
Indeed Comodi brought the negative controls, and the chanhellery records; but the judge (Pratillo Helmann) simply declined to accept them, on the ground that "the contamination could have occurred outside the laboratory" (I'm not joking, that was the reason given by Hellmann-Zanetti's court)

If Dr. Stefanoni's documentation of her control data is as dubious as that of her so-called PCR quantification data, then perhaps Hellman was wise to ignore it.
 
Bill Williams said:
Machiavelli. Your argument is now with Andrea Vogt. Andrea Vogt now blogs that the RIS Carabinieri submission to the Nencini court in essence debunks Stefanoni's work, and that the C&V report is now before the Nencini court as it was in front of the Hellmann court. (...)

Do you think I am unable to read the RIS report?
The question is: do you agree with it? Do you agree with Andrea Vogt that the C&V report is now, in effect, valid in front of the Nencini court?

Why spend thousnads of keystrokes arguing about what happened between Comodi, Hellmann, Stefanoni and Vecchiotti, when this is now Nov 2013, and Andrea Vogt is saying that the C&V report is valid and in front of the Nencini court?

Your brief replies give you away - it shows what you wish to avoid discussing.

Is it because you now believe Andrea Vogt is an "approximate reporter"? You can say it - your secret is safe with me.....
 
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Machiavelli - if you now believe that Andrea Vogt is an approximate reporter, and do not want to say so publicly.... send me a PM.
 
Has there ever been any support for claiming that Meredith knew anything about Amanda's job or mojitos, other than from the so-called, alleged interview with Patrick in the Daily Mail? I read Amanda's book but I can't remember if she mentioned it.


I don't think so.

My objective take on the Lumumba interview is that it was the unguarded rant of a man who recently had been unjustly imprisoned for two weeks, and who was now being given a high-profile platform to vent his spleen.

I think that uppermost in his mind was that he considered Knox to have willfully falsely accused him, and that she was therefore the willing architect of his subsequent treatment at the hands of the Perugia law enforcement community. I feel that it's very likely that he had spent some time prior to the interview brewing up hatred for Knox, and as part of that process had undergone a process of memory revision regarding his dealings with Knox (and with Meredith, especially where they pertained to Knox).

I think it's almost certain, incidentally, that Lumumba actually did speak the exact words attributed to him in that same article regarding alleged physical and racial abuse by the police and investigators. That's because they were attributed as direct quotes, and because a publication such as the Mail would without any doubt have checked that this is what Lumumba had actually said, given the prospect of legal action from Lumumba and/or the Perugia police if they'd misquoted him. My bet is that they had - and still have - Lumumba on tape making these accusations.

If that's so, then the secondary question is whether he lied or embellished the truth in those quotes. It's hard to conceive of why Lumumba would choose to lie or embellish in the circumstances - why would you accuse the police in such an extreme way, and risk further trouble, unless what was said was what had essentially happened?

My personal belief is that one or more people paid Lumumba a visit after this article came out, and advised him quietly that it would be "in everyone's best interests" if he retracted those accusations. I think Lumumba was easily able to read between the lines, and complied accordingly.
 
But, it seems you don't understand. It's a cautionary attitude. It's not that Stefanoni creates directly a misstep. But if Vecchiotti is honest, she will have to take steps consistent with that. In the event Vecchiotti was honest, a possible Stefanoni's cautious attitude would have been ok anyway. What apparently you don't perceive, is that something like Vecchiotti's decision to assume the negative controls don'exist, is something that would have been not possible on the part of a honest expert. It's just grotesque to assume the laboratory doesn't perform negative and positive controls, when the laboratory belongs to the ENFSI, when all testimonies transcripts report about negative controls, and when ever the parties' experts were there present attending the tests. It's not something like an assumption which a court-appointed, competent, honest expert could ever take; and based on his omitting a check at the court's office; and based on omitting the reading of the documentation, and then, not asking for the negative controls in her e-mail contacts.

On the other hand, if Vecchiotti is dishonest, she would not second Stefanoni's findings, at any cost. She would always make up something to discredit the DNA results. The negative controls are a peculiar ploy in the sense that it was an argument already dropped by the defenses; they were already 'used' as an argument by the defence in the preliminary hearing, but the argument was debunked insofar as the negative controls were deposited. In fact, the defence had dropped the negative controls argument.
But still, there were other defensive arguments that a partial 'experts' may attempt to throw against Stefanoni.
Vecchiotti's report does not contain anything original: these arguments were already put forward by the defence, and they lost, they were dismissed by the first instance court.
The defence only wanted a 'court-appointed expert' (to picture as an 'independant' expert) to 'validate' them so they could bring them back into court.
Stefanoni and the prosecution perfectly knew this and it would make no sense to expect that a dishonest expert could be 'forced' to write something different: any corrupt expert would just bring the defensive arguments back into play. Which is exactly what Vecchiotti did.
However, she also brought in some arguments that the defence had abandoned in the previous trial, because they were not arguable before an impartial court. But before the Hellmann court, even the junk could find its place and could be used for the show. This is what I think happened.

On these grounds, making all these considerations, I think Stefanoni's caution makes sense and I don't see what other behaviour could be more rational.

A last side note: everybody here seems to ignore it, but at the Hellmann trial, the C&V report was not the only expert report submitted. The experts reports from public parties were three: there was also a second Stefanoni report, and a Novelli report.
I do understand what you are trying to say. I don’t agree though. Here is why:
You assert that Vecchiotti is dishonest and had no intention of verifying Stefanoni’s work, no matter what she found when reviewing it. The problem with this theory is if that were true, why would Stefanoni make it easier for her to have a problem with her work? Why wouldn’t Stefanoni make darn sure everything was pristine? And for god’s sake why would Stefanoni play right into something previously brought up by the defense? If the defense had stated there were no negative controls and hired an expert to review the case, of all the things Stefanoni could have done to sabotage the review, why would she choose something she was already suspected of? As you state, there were other arguments an expert could have used. What I am saying is the whole thing does not make sense from a human behavior point of view. If, as you state, Stefanoni and the prosecution knew what arguments were going to be used, why would they play right into them? It makes no sense, it does not fit. If it does not fit, you must… never mind, it’s an American saying.
 
The question is: do you agree with it? Do you agree with Andrea Vogt that the C&V report is now, in effect, valid in front of the Nencini court?
(...)

This makes me recall about when you were saying "should we not believe Sicnetific American?" while you were claiming Scientific American reported that "Italian sicentists were convicted for failing to predict an earthquake". You claimed this is what Scientific American reported.
Scientific American did not report that.

You play this game with everything, any source: Vogt, Nadeau, the Kerchers, Massei, myself, whoever.

This game is tedious.

You want to make claims about the RIS report? Then state your claims, and back your arguments in some way.

You want to quote Vogt? Then quote her, and quote her correctly.

By now it's like you claiming Massei found no psychopatology. The RIS never argued in favor of C&V, and as far as I know, also Vogt never reported what you try to attribute her.
 
Look I'm ONLY saying that it is a weak argument to say killers would never take a weapon, specifically a knife to another location and then bring it back. I'll bet people have taken an axe to kill someone certainly guns.

Has anyone even made that argument? Or have they made the argument that two formerly sane people would never put a kitchen knife in a cloth bag, walk or run a mile with it, kill their friend and then bring the knife back and cut bread with it?

Please drop the Massei green bag method.

If you don't include the bag, you get a stronger argument, but Massei said the knife went in the bag, so it should be allowed in the "what if" scenario. The bag weakens your argument because it increases the possibility of planning versus rage, but the lack of immediacy in the timing does that anyway, so -- I will drop the bag. :p

I would like to know of an innocent person that couldn't remember what time they ate or if they made love that also called their mother at 4 in the morning (mother time). If I were to find the example would you then think her guilty?

Not sure what you mean here -- couldn't or could remember? Did you write that correctly?

Find an example of someone who, four days later, could "remember what time they ate or if they made love that also called their mother at 4 in the morning (mother time)," and we'll talk.

Few of us here believe they killed her but if they did I wouldn't doubt the knife movement.

Suggesting the probability of the knife movement is part of what destroys the credibility of the prosecution's case. Just as you and I recognize that there are more sensible ways to get into a house than climbing in a second story window, most rational minds recognize there are more sensible ways to cut someone's throat than with a knife retrieved from a remote location.

That was a little more than bringing a knife home. The police find murder weapons often at the home of the killer. You buy me a drink and dinner for every one I find?

Let's go Dutch. If you find an authentic murder weapon and bring it along with full documentation, I will be duly impressed -- how's that? :)

Well fork you :p. If the police claimed that they had brought a toothpick from Raf's and killed her, I would say impossible.

That is entirely my point. Given all the circumstances, it is as unlikely they would have brought a toothpick, a bottle of bleach or a gun as it is that they brought a knife.

Isolate the question; is it possible that a knife was moved from the flat to the cottage and back? Clearly the answer is yes.

Do I think it happened that way? No.

I know you don't think it happened that way, and I understand what you're getting at by claiming it is possible. Using that logic, though, anything is possible, which basically has been the prosecution's case all along.

Instead, you have to look at it with a logic that allows for the simultaneous occurrence of all the necessary conditions that would enable them to do it.

1.) They would have to be out of their minds.
2.) They would have to travel a mile with the plan in mind, and succeed in carrying out the plan.
3.) They would have to bring the knife back to the kitchen instead of disposing of it, wash it until it was shiny, then place it on top of all the other knives in the drawer and leave it there for four days while police investigated the murder.

Which stars would have to be aligned to create such a possibility?
 
Thank you for the info. I don't see anything in it to suggest that Meredith was not respectful of Amanda's position with her employer. In fact, just the opposite. It shows Meredith is a fun party girl (she has her own special highball recipe) which seems to fit with what Amanda was and the two girls would have had fun together at the bar with Meredith serving up her special Mojito. They would have invited their friends and Italian guys to come. Tips would be good. Lumumba's cash register would have rung loud that night (unless he had it set to "silent" tax evading mode. :D ).

Excellent reply Strozzi. That is what happens. You get a job somewhere and then you get your friends jobs where you work. It is really common especially at places like bars and restaurants. And believe me, Patrick wanted good looking girls to work at his bar. They bring in the guys that spend money.
 
This makes me recall about when you were saying "should we not believe Sicnetific American?" while you were claiming Scientific American reported that "Italian sicentists were convicted for failing to predict an earthquake". You claimed this is what Scientific American reported.
Scientific American did not report that.

You play this game with everything, any source: Vogt, Nadeau, the Kerchers, Massei, myself, whoever.

This game is tedious.

You want to make claims about the RIS report? Then state your claims, and back your arguments in some way.

You want to quote Vogt? Then quote her, and quote her correctly.

By now it's like you claiming Massei found no psychopatology. The RIS never argued in favor of C&V, and as far as I know, also Vogt never reported what you try to attribute her.

Machiavelli... please permit me to make an observation.

When you feel on firm ground, you present your evidence and argue it.

When you do not, you simply throw it back; in essence refusing to answer.

Please also let me say, that you do not owe me an explanation at all. You are not accountable to me or anyone on this internet service.

In relation to Andrea Vogt, there have been times when you've gone and got a quote from the interested party and thrown it into the mix. You did this with the Massei report, when you and I were arguing back and forth about Massei's opinion of "psychopathology" of Knox and Sollecito.

I sense this is a sensitive issue for you. I apologze if you think it is too sesitive to comment.

But I remind you, you eventually DID call Barbie Nadeau an "approximate reporter," when you finally accepted that she'd written that Maneula Comodi threatened to quit the prosecution team, if Mignini went to court with a Satanic rite theory. By saying such, you de facto conceded that Barbie Nadeau did, in fact, claim this.

Now you are avoiding a similar issue with Andrea Vogt. She says that the C&V report is valid and before the Nencini court.

You, on the other hand, don't want to talk about it. Fine. You are not accountable to me.
 
I do understand what you are trying to say. I don’t agree though. Here is why:
You assert that Vecchiotti is dishonest and had no intention of verifying Stefanoni’s work, no matter what she found when reviewing it. The problem with this theory is if that were true, why would Stefanoni make it easier for her to have a problem with her work? Why wouldn’t Stefanoni make darn sure everything was pristine? And for god’s sake why would Stefanoni play right into something previously brought up by the defense? If the defense had stated there were no negative controls and hired an expert to review the case, of all the things Stefanoni could have done to sabotage the review, why would she choose something she was already suspected of? As you state, there were other arguments an expert could have used. What I am saying is the whole thing does not make sense from a human behavior point of view. If, as you state, Stefanoni and the prosecution knew what arguments were going to be used, why would they play right into them? It makes no sense, it does not fit. If it does not fit, you must… never mind, it’s an American saying.

I think there are wrong assumptions in this. You say "suspected of", while Stefanoni was actually not suspected of nothing.
I think it's clear that Stefanoni's duty about the negative controls ends when she deposits the negative controls on Oct. 8.
At that point the documentation belings to the court. I mean, she will never be expected to care about presenting the same documentation a second time. That won't be a correct procedure. There is no reason why a persn would fololow that.
That said, well, it seems logical to me. I don't see logic in your argument actually.
It seems to me Stefanoni did everything correctly. And what she did, all proved to be the correct behaviour under a lawyerish point of view.
Maybe you shouldn't think of Stefanoni as a person who feels suspected of being dishonest. Because this was never actually the case. In reality, Stefanoni did not present further documentation such as the raw data, not because she didn't want to, but because the judges didn't want to.
Stefanoni has always been 'behind the wings of judges', in rality she was never suspected of anything. This aura of suspicion araound Stefanoni, the idea that her works should be put under trial and exposed or scrutinized, is something devised and nurtured in the US, by pro-Knox environments first, and then, later, was partly adopted by the defence narrative. But has never been something real, something existing in Italian courts, until Vecchiotti's report.
Stefanoni did nothing actually to sabotage the expert's review (which is not even supposed to be, actually, a review of Stefaoni's work).

Simply, Stefanoni did not interact with Vecchiotti more than what strictly necessary, and each interaction was documented. That was her policy.
She did not contribute to Vecchiotti's work in any way.
I don't see what she could do more, or what the purpose of further actions could be.
You said that she would have sent all the documentation, rather than omitting some files. Maybe. But I don't see why assume she would do that necessarily.
First, the test is an incidente probatorio thus you can't really have "all documentation" in the legal sense, since the validity of the event includes the presence of other witnesses and parties. Second some files are already deposited, and since Stefanoni is not supposed to just send material directly (meaning that she cannot just give things to Vecchiotti, copies all files must also be deposited with the court, and every transfer of document must be recorded by the judge) she would have to deposit some files twice. Third, it appears from Stefanoni's e-mail style that she wants e-mails (a document) reporting explicits requests of all files, of every single piece of documentation; in other words she wants to keep a record whenever she gives something, she wants to keep a document reporting the written request (so that nobody could question the exact transfer of the file, name date etc.), as a receip and as a legal document. Fourth, it is anyway dangerous to send a package of material labled as "whole documentation", because this kind of lable may become intrinsically objectionable. If I say "I send you three files with these names" instead, the content is less objectionable.
 
But I remind you, you eventually DID call Barbie Nadeau an "approximate reporter," when you finally accepted that she'd written that Maneula Comodi threatened to quit the prosecution team, if Mignini went to court with a Satanic rite theory.

No, actually I claimed that I had the impression Barbie Nadeau was an approximate reporter on this case compared to Vogt, but this independently from the gossp that you attribute to her, what you reported her saying about Comodi and Satanic rites.

You are now building a logical connection between my judgement of Nadeau and the particular detail that you attribute to Nadeau: but if I recall correctly this is a misreporting of my words; actually in my words such logical connection doesn't exist. I had the feeling of Nadeau as an approximate reporter on this case, but not because she talked about Satanic rites.

By saying such, you de facto conceded that Barbie Nadeau did, in fact, claim this.

Absolutely not.
On the contrary: I clearly stated that I have never read Nadeau's book.
I think I said that clearly.
How can I talk about something which I didn't read?

Now you are avoiding a similar issue with Andrea Vogt. She says that the C&V report is valid and before the Nencini court.

You say she says that. Which is quite different.

You, on the other hand, don't want to talk about it.

I may talk about the RIS report. I may talk about the content of Vogt's article if you quote it.
But I am not going to talk about "the thing that Bill Williams says Vogt says about what the RIS report says about what C&V report says".
 
Mach, since you are here, will you please answer this question of mine from yesterday?

Originally Posted by Machiavelli
Those who make unsupported defamatory allegations about people, are criminals (as for the Italian penal code, art 595, § 2, 3, aggravated defamation).

Just as a point of information, Mach, is this the article in question in Mignini's lawsuit against Frank Sfarzo?
 
Make it strong...

Meredith was offered a special night at le chic to make mojitos. Personally it seemed that Meredith was insensitive about Amanda's job.


Grinder, do you have any source material that causes you to believe that Meredith was insensitive about Amanda's job? (citing Dr. Tesla doesn't count!)


:p What do you question? She made a Mojito for Patrick out of his special Polish vodka IIRC and he suggested that they have a Mojito night at Le Chic and Meredith agreed to do it.

It seems to me that if I were in the situation Meredith was put in I would demur the offer.


Hiya,
I too would like a link.
In fact, I'd like a few, and as Grinder's always harpin',
FS+CD don't count.

What insensitive chick walks into a bar where her flatmate works and then makes the owner a drink at his own bar with his own special liquor?

Meredith did? Never heard of that 1...

Here's 1 link that tells a different tale:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Lumumba-reveals-framed-Merediths-murder.html

Grinder?
 
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<snip>My personal belief is that one or more people paid Lumumba a visit after this article came out, and advised him quietly that it would be "in everyone's best interests" if he retracted those accusations. I think Lumumba was easily able to read between the lines, and complied accordingly.

My personal belief is that the whole thing was made up.
 
Simply, Stefanoni did not interact with Vecchiotti more than what strictly necessary, and each interaction was documented. That was her policy.
She did not contribute to Vecchiotti's work in any way.
I don't see what she could do more, or what the purpose of further actions could be.

She could have told them exactly what records she had already deposited. If she kept the extensive records you assume she kept, then it would have been a trivial matter of a few moments.

First, the test is an incidente probatorio thus you can't really have "all documentation" in the legal sense, since the validity of the event includes the presence of other witnesses and parties.

False. The validity of the event is not enhanced or detracted from by the presence or absence of any person, barring Stef herself of course.

Second some files are already deposited, and since Stefanoni is not supposed to just send material directly (meaning that she cannot just give things to Vecchiotti, copies all files must also be deposited with the court, and every transfer of document must be recorded by the judge) she would have to deposit some files twice.

Then she will simply have to deposit records (that should already have been deposited and are alledged to have been deposited already) twice. If she HAD already deposited them, then a simple "Here are the records you asked for, and additional files are available at Case Knox, ident 08/10/2007 Stefanoni" (or however chancellery/depository files their cases) would have been adequate and logical.


Third, it appears from Stefanoni's e-mail style that she wants e-mails (a document) reporting explicits requests of all files, of every single piece of documentation; in other words she wants to keep a record whenever she gives something, she wants to keep a document reporting the written request (so that nobody could question the exact transfer of the file, name date etc.), as a receip and as a legal document.

Tough titties what Stefanoni 'wants'. She was asked for all files related to the testing. Until she identifies and hands over the files, no-one outside of her lab can be expected to make an explicit per-file request in the way Stefanoni wants.

She could have easily recorded all this information without anyone making an explicit request.

Example:

V: "Give us the files related to testing in the Knox case"
S: "Sure! The files related to testing are Knox 1 through to Knox 367, with machine controls DGE051107 through to DGE111107. I have attached them for your convenience. The others are under deposition reference Case Knox, Ident Stefanoni"

When I give people a requested file, it is MY legal, professional, contractual, logical and moral duty to be the one that includes the explicit information. Case number, assessor name, client ID, location. None of this has to be explicitly requested for me to release the files or know which one they're on about as long as I'm reasonably sure they; have permission to received the report, the report is the one they're asking for.

Fourth, it is anyway dangerous to send a package of material labled as "whole documentation", because this kind of lable may become intrinsically objectionable. If I say "I send you three files with these names" instead, the content is less objectionable.

A very weak objection. Stefanoni could easily have sent named files in the way you suggest at absoultely zero additional cost to herself.

One way you've shot yourself in the foot : if Stefanoni was as thorough as you allege she was, it would have been trivial and habitual for her to be thorough in her replies to V and include information about the documents supposedly in deposition.

Utterly trivial.

There's no way could Stefanoni have been following the case and not know C=V were going to review her work. If she didn;t submit it all for review, then it's tough luck for her when they turn around and point out that they didn;t have it all for review.
 
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