Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Machiavelli]

So now Comodi claims they are in the file. Vecchiotti states she specifically asked Stefanoni for them via email. She says she has the emails where she requested them. (...)

But no it's quite the contrary. Vecchiotti says she did not specifically request them. She states instead that she asked repeatedly... the files related to the testings.
NOT the negative controls.
Vecchiotti says "no". She has a contorted way of saying no, instead of saying that explicitly, she just talks about what she requested. Which, she admits, was not specifically the negative controls.

She never made a specific mention about the negative controls in her e-mails.
It is also clear from her subsequent answer "I don't see why they should not be included".

 

[Machiavelli]

And here we see Machiavelli withholding evidence just like his mentors the prosecution.

In accordance with the law.

 

[Dan O.]

In accordance with the law.

A mysterious law that allows Machiavelli to post whatever quote he chooses from the document but cannot produce the document itself. Are these documents in the case file public records?

Is there an index to the contents of the case file that can be published?

 

[davefoc]

But no it's quite the contrary. Vecchiotti says she did not specifically request them. She states instead that she asked repeatedly... the files related to the testings.
NOT the negative controls.
Vecchiotti says "no". She has a contorted way of saying no, instead of saying that explicitly, she just talks about what she requested. Which, she admits, was not specifically the negative controls.

She never made a specific mention about the negative controls in her e-mails.
It is also clear from her subsequent answer "I don't see why they should not be included".

My experience is as an electrical engineer, but in some ways there are similar issues here. If I was doing testing where I needed to be able to retrace my steps to help validate the results I included the relevant evidence that led me to the conclusions in the report.

It strikes me as very strange that in an issue like this that the relevant testing that was done to validate the results was not included without specific requests for specific pieces of data. Negative control results seem like something that would be included by default in any data package being sent to another individual for their review. You seem to be saying that they were included but Vecchiotti couldn't find them. OK, that might be because Vecchiotti just didn't understand the organization of the data sent to her and/or Stefanoni didn't organize the data sent to Vecchiotti very well. So why wasn't this issue resolved when Vecchioti asked for them? You seem to be saying that Vecchioti didn't ask for them specifically. Why would she have to even assuming that she didn't. Are we to believe Stefanoni was playing some sort of childish game in which she failed to provide important information unless it was specifically requested or is your argument that Stefanoni was playing some sort of childish game where she hid the data in the package that she provided Vecchiotti but refused to tell her how to find it?

Through this all, Machiavelli, you continue to argue like you are privy to the emails that went between Stefanoni and Vecchiotti. Are you? Perhaps you have talked to Stefanoni and Vecchiotti directly about this? Perhaps you have seen the data sent to Vecchiotti and are aware of how it was organized and what was included? If not, how do you come to firm conclusions that seem to be unlikely in the extreme if more information is not available to validate them. If you claim that your strained reading of the information available in this thread is all the proof you need then it is clear you have allowed your confirmation bias to favor a theory that a plain reading of the available evidence doesn't support.

 

[Bill Williams]

ty·pol·o·gy
tīˈpäləjē/Submit
noun
1.
a classification according to general type, esp. in archaeology, psychology, or the social sciences.
"a typology of Saxon cremation vessels"
2.
the study and interpretation of types and symbols, originally esp. in the Bible.

Should have known that it is associated with mumbo jumbo of biblical symbol interpretation. Other than that pretty much what I thought.



No idea if there is a point there or not.



Do you have a quote from Douglas saying no murderer would ever take, use and return a weapon?



Just as Popham saying that the knife was the only evidence and was wrong, the argument that it couldn't have been the or a knife in this murder because no one would bring it and return it is just wrong.

Sigh. Dan O., acbytesla.... he's yours.

 

[Dan O.]

It's quite obvious that Patrizia Stefanoni either doesn't think the negative controls are required to validate the results or she knows that the negative controls in this case invalidated her results and she is attempting to cover it up.

There should also be Positive controls. Were there any positive controls for the TMB testing? Did they test the solutions they were using that day to determine their limit of detection? Were there any substrate controls? Does Machiavelli even know what these are? Does Stefanoni?

 

[Dan O.]

Sigh. Dan O., acbytesla.... he's yours.

At least he's more fun than humber.

 

[yimyammer]

Grinder, I recognize that you are trying so very hard to be the devils advocate here. But your arguments have no weight. They are empty, void of support.

Take for instance in your imaginary world where Amanda discovers that she lost her job to Meredith. On the evening of the 1st, Amanda receives a text message from Patrick which regardless of the content of that message it is a reminder that she lost her job. So how does this furious she-devil respond: she replies with the text: "Fine, see you later, good evening".

And, just to be certain that she isn't masking her true feelings in an emotionless text media, minutes later she is met face to face by Jovana Popovic and there is no hint of anger displayed.

The time is 20:43 and Raffaele is talking to his father which is why Amanda was answering the door. This is happening also while they are in the middle of watching Amelie. They finish watching Amanda's movie at 21:10. At 21:26 Raffaele opens one of his movies, "Naruto ep 101" which runs for 23 minutes.

But Meredith gets home at 21:05. This time is supported by the testimony of her english friends and the CCTV camera in the car park across the street. She doesn't have a chance to recall her mother whom she tried to call earlier. She doesn't have a chance to remove her wet clothes from the washing machine and move them to the drying rack. She doesn't have a chance to open up the history book that she borrowed to study that night. Her digestion doesn't have a chance to start moving her last meal out of her stomach. All of this evidence supports that Meredith was attacked and killed shortly after arriving home.

Anomalous activity begins on Meredith's phone at 21:58. The phones are found in a garden of a home where the police were called and responded at about 22:00. A car is broken down outside the cottage from 22:30 to 23:00 with 2 couples and the tow truck operator reporting no activity from the cottage. These events are consistent with an early murder but place serious constraints on alternative theories.


If you want to play the devil's advocate, fine. Come up with a plausible alternative theory so that we may compare which theory best fits the known facts.

i always thought the phones were found the following morning, are you saying they were found that night at approx. 10pm?

If so, doesn't that make it virtually impossible for the TOD to be after 10pm?

 

[Grinder]

Grinder, do you have any source material that causes you to believe that Meredith was insensitive about Amanda's job? (citing Dr. Tesla doesn't count!)

What do you question? She made a Mojito for Patrick out of his special Polish vodka IIRC and he suggested that they have a Mojito night at Le Chic and Meredith agreed to do it.

It seems to me that if I were in the situation Meredith was put in I would demur the offer.

 

[yimyammer]

I think to answer all of this it might be best to re-look at the testimony:


What she testifies to is this: I asked… several times… she sent them to me several times the files about the… tests she had performed, … they should have been there and they were not there.


The important statement here is “I do not see why it should not have been included.”


So now Comodi claims they are in the file. Vecchiotti states she specifically asked Stefanoni for them via email. She says she has the emails where she requested them. Why didn’t Comodi enter the emails into evidence if they proved her assertion that Stefanoni did not specifically ask for the negative controls? It makes no sense and it allows her to claim they were not asked for without proving her point. CV says she has the emails to prove what she is stating, but interestingly Comodi doesn't say "Well let's look at them." Why not?


Again Vecchiotti says Stefanoni sends return emails and even a CD and yet the negative controls are not included. Here too is your answer to “Who is they?” Clearly she begins speaking of “they” as the other consultants. She says the other consultants have also asked for the negative controls. She says Stefanoni was cooperative (collaborativa) in that she did send information, but she maintains Stefanoni never sent the negative controls. She further explains “I ask the first time, I ask a second time” and “The other party consultants, they even ask for the raw data…” and she repeats, “She should have sent it to me…”
You claim Stefanoni cannot send her things directly, but this testimony clearly states Stefanoni sent her things directly.

And then there is this:

What is this mumbo jumbo? I have no idea what she means by this problem with her thought process, but she ends it all with stating the negative controls are in the file.

So then this:

Neither Vecchiotti nor Bongiorno have ever seen these negative controls in the file. Vecchiotti can’t very well call Comodi a liar (as we know how that works out in Italy) so she says I searched for them and I didn’t see them. But the bigger question here is why the hell didn't Stefanoni reply to Vecchiotti's multiple requests, "They are in the file"?


So Comodi claims they were deposited into the file on October 8, 2008. You say it is provable by the court transcripts, that there would be a record of the negative controls being deposited into the file. So why doesn’t Comodi whip out the transcripts to prove Vecchiotti is lying? That would have been one of the biggest “Aha” moments in the entire trial. But Comodi doesn’t do this. Why not? Surely she has a copy of the file. Surely she knew this was going to come up in the questioning of Vecchiotti. Why doesn’t she have this transcript at her fingertips to shoot Vecchiotti down in flames? She doesn’t because it doesn’t exist. Yes, I maintain it is non-existent. There is no other explanation why it wasn’t introduced right then and there to completely discredit CV. Instead, Comodi simply asserts it exists, to cause CV to doubt herself.

It seems to me, if there exists a transcript or document which proves these negative controls exist and were in the file as of 2008, this would put to rest all the back-and-forth about these negative controls. It would be a huge feather in the cap for the PGP. So where is it? Why can't even Comodi produce it?

It's astounding how something so freakin simple can end up being so convoluted and confusing.

Why the hell is it so hard to get/give a clear answer on this issue?

sheesh!

 

[billyryan]

i always thought the phones were found the following morning, are you saying they were found that night at approx. 10pm?

If so, doesn't that make it virtually impossible for the TOD to be after 10pm?

The phones were found the following morning,but there was a phonecall to the very house, in whose garden the phones were found,a bomb alert at 22:00 on the night that Meredith was murdered,there is strong evidence that the phones were out of the house by 21:58 because of the cell Merediths phone connected to at that time

 

[acbytesla]

What do you question? She made a Mojito for Patrick out of his special Polish vodka IIRC and he suggested that they have a Mojito night at Le Chic and Meredith agreed to do it.

It seems to me that if I were in the situation Meredith was put in I would demur the offer.

Why??? That is Monday morning quarterbacking. There is no evidence that Amanda was the least bit mad at Meredith for this. Maybe Amanda was excited at the possibility that her friend would be working with her at Le Chic and never considered Meredith at all as a threat to her job.

This is guilter's talking Grinder. They are suggesting a motive for Amanda killing Meredith that there isn't a shred of evidence supporting.

It's we're convinced that Amanda killed Meredith...and we need a motive..so we'll make up this non-existent one.

 

[Grinder]

I think Grinder is right with regard to his limited point and it is reasonable to just acknowledge this. If I understand him correctly, he is just saying that a stand alone argument that it is extremely unlikely that a murderer would take a knife from their apartment, kill somebody with it, and return it to their apartment is not valid. That is something that a murderer might do.

Exactly.

The PGP make a big deal about the forgotten call to her mom "in the middle of the night". That call means nothing and the fact that she didn't remember it means even less, but the PGP go on about all the lies and the time in Seattle etc. Almost the entire prosecution case is based on the same type of thinking exhibited by those here saying the knife wouldn't have been taken because they are/were good kids (shorthand description).

 

[Grinder]

But no it's quite the contrary. Vecchiotti says she did not specifically request them. She states instead that she asked repeatedly... the files related to the testings.
NOT the negative controls.
Vecchiotti says "no". She has a contorted way of saying no, instead of saying that explicitly, she just talks about what she requested. Which, she admits, was not specifically the negative controls.
She never made a specific mention about the negative controls in her e-mails.
It is also clear from her subsequent answer "I don't see why they should not be included".

Seems much in Italy is contorted. Why wouldn't Stefanoni just supply all the records proving she did a great job? Does she think it is a game?

 

[billyryan]

I do not know if whoever phoned the bomb alert was ever traced,but it must be at least possible that Rudy having stabbed Meredith three times and dumped her phones in the garden of a particular house began to have some remorse and was hoping to raise the alarm so that medical help could arrive in time to save Meredith,she was I believe still alive when he left the cottage,and this may have been an effort to raise the alarm without drawing attention to himself.The police failing to identify whoever made the phone call should not be a surprise,they also failed to inform the court that Curatolo could not have seen disco busses,they failed to press the record button on a tape recorder they failed to see a police officer hit Amanda,and they also failed to stop lying when they took the witness stand

 

[yimyammer]

The phones were found the following morning,but there was a phonecall to the very house, in whose garden the phones were found,a bomb alert at 22:00 on the night that Meredith was murdered,there is strong evidence that the phones were out of the house by 21:58 because of the cell Merediths phone connected to at that time

Thx. Can you clarify what you mean here and which house was called?

Was the call to AK/Meredith's flat or the house where the phone was found?

That's odd if it was the house where the phones were found, how would any suspected party to this crime know this number?

Do they know what phone number the bomb alert came from?

Is the bomb alert addressed at trial?

this is weird as hell...par for the course

 

[Grinder]

My experience is as an electrical engineer, but in some ways there are similar issues here. If I was doing testing where I needed to be able to retrace my steps to help validate the results I included the relevant evidence that led me to the conclusions in the report.

It strikes me as very strange that in an issue like this that the relevant testing that was done to validate the results was not included without specific requests for specific pieces of data. Negative control results seem like something that would be included by default in any data package being sent to another individual for their review. You seem to be saying that they were included but Vecchiotti couldn't find them. OK, that might be because Vecchiotti just didn't understand the organization of the data sent to her and/or Stefanoni didn't organize the data sent to Vecchiotti very well. So why wasn't this issue resolved when Vecchioti asked for them? You seem to be saying that Vecchioti didn't ask for them specifically. Why would she have to even assuming that she didn't. Are we to believe Stefanoni was playing some sort of childish game in which she failed to provide important information unless it was specifically requested or is your argument that Stefanoni was playing some sort of childish game where she hid the data in the package that she provided Vecchiotti but refused to tell her how to find it?

Through this all, Machiavelli, you continue to argue like you are privy to the emails that went between Stefanoni and Vecchiotti. Are you? Perhaps you have talked to Stefanoni and Vecchiotti directly about this? Perhaps you have seen the data sent to Vecchiotti and are aware of how it was organized and what was included? If not, how do you come to firm conclusions that seem to be unlikely in the extreme if more information is not available to validate them. If you claim that your strained reading of the information available in this thread is all the proof you need then it is clear you have allowed your confirmation bias to favor a theory that a plain reading of the available evidence doesn't support.

I hadn't read this before my last post so clearly great minds...

You made me think of playing jigsaw puzzle once as a young unjaded boy. I was trying to place every piece as one does but one piece was missing. Apparently the other person playing thought it was a competition and had taken one piece and put it in their pocket so the last piece was theirs to place.

And no Bill that person was not Candace.

Steffy had the pieces in her pocket.

 

[Dan O.]

i always thought the phones were found the following morning, are you saying they were found that night at approx. 10pm?

If so, doesn't that make it virtually impossible for the TOD to be after 10pm?

Yes, the phones were found the following morning. They had to be dropped in the garden before the police arrived, while the police were there or after the police left but before they were found about 09:00 the next morning.

I consider the early drop the most rational. In the lone wolf scenario, Rudy leaves the cottage with the phones, As he is walking home around the outside of the city, past the gate that is locked at night, he is trying to turn off the phones and makes the recorded interactions at 21:58 and 22:00. Either the approaching police or the notification of the incoming MMS on the phone causes Rudy to panic and he ditches the phones and runs home.

I consider approaching an active police investigation while covered in blood from a murder to be an impossible event. (Grinder man disagree)

Dumping the phones the next morning is a possibility but it requires holding the phones, one of which hasn't been turned off and is therefore trackable, overnight.

 

[acbytesla]

Seems much in Italy is contorted. Why wouldn't Stefanoni just supply all the records proving she did a great job? Does she think it is a game?

Does seem like the prosecution thinks that "legal discovery" is a game.

Speaking of games. Seahawks win another one 33-10!!!!! Damn. ... 9-1 Looks like home field throughout the playoffs.

 

[yimyammer]

I do not know if whoever phoned the bomb alert was ever traced,but it must be at least possible that Rudy having stabbed Meredith three times and dumped her phones in the garden of a particular house began to have some remorse and was hoping to raise the alarm so that medical help could arrive in time to save Meredith,she was I believe still alive when he left the cottage,and this may have been an effort to raise the alarm without drawing attention to himself.The police failing to identify whoever made the phone call should not be a surprise,they also failed to inform the court that Curatolo could not have seen disco busses,they failed to press the record button on a tape recorder they failed to see a police officer hit Amanda,and they also failed to stop lying when they took the witness stand

psychic? Somehow you answered my questions before I asked/thx