An Atheist's View of the Alpha Course

Jack by the hedge said:
Really? Cold reading? Good grief.

And I believe you're right - the bible says mediums should be stoned to death.
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But what would you think as an atheist if what they said to you were accurate about you and what you were 30/40 years ago
 
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mstricky said:
But what would you think as an atheist if what they said to you were accurate about you and what you were 30/40 years ago
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That depends on what you mean by "accurate". As a skeptic, rather than specifically an atheist since they weren't claiming a god told them about you, I would presume they were using the same cold reading tricks that any stage medium uses, unless they were very specific, in which case I'd assume they had done some research.



I'm really rather taken aback that they would use such tricks to try to persuade someone they had a hotline to God. It seems so cynical.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
It'd be a help if you could post verbatim any of them that you feel comfortable with sharing, and explain how they describe you.
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Ok Sqeezee this is what one of them said .... I got darts 180, i got bowls, I got cross stitching. I got that honesty means everything to you. I got that you are the life and soul of the party.
Darts..... I played darts every lunchtime at work in the 70s/80s. ( in the winter) I played bowls every lunchtime in the 70s/80s. ( in the summer ) I did cross stitching in the 70s/80s and have tapestries in my lounge. Which I spent months/years stitching. ( which none have them have ever seen nor been to my home) Honesty is everything to me 'integrity' is my middle name, it means more to me than anything and always has. The second most important thing to me is justice for me or anyone else. I am still the life and soul at a party but no one would know that unless they came to a party. Otherwise I am sedate and calm, gentle.
Another one said... I can see a man with a little girl showing her the birds/butterflies/flowers/trees. That is exactly what my father did. We lived in the country and every Sunday he took me a walk and described the bird types etc. She described my father and what he taught me, exactly

Jack no one knows me and therefore couldn't have researched. I am puzzled/mesmorised, there's got to be something up there. The only thing I can say is this. I will say again that I am an atheist and do not believe that God came to them and gave them all that accurate info. I believe it was the universe and perhaps my dead friends/relatives that came to them and I say that because of the messages I have had from the dead, convinces me that there is something up there but like everyone else, I have no idea what that is.
How would they know what I did in the 70s/80s?
 
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It's late here, so I've not got time to go into details, but this is a very clear example of what's called the Forer effect - where people take vague statements and believe them to be tailor made for them. The "life and soul of the party" thing is the stereotypical example of a Barnum Statement, it's what people use in order to demonstrate what a Barnum Statement is.

Doesn't the fact that what you got was "Darts 180" rather than "You played darts every lunchtime at work in the 70s and 80s" rather suggest that the source of the message isn't an omnipotent, omniscient being? If it were God, why didn't he just tell you what you dreamt last night?
 
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I don't know Sqeegee and its late here too haha 0121 hrs. But they were looking at a mid seventies old biddie, why would they come up with darts/bowls etc. i truly believe something came through to them but I still don't believe it was God. Another atheist at the course was also mesmorised as her 'three' had also been spot on with her. Another had been told that they got a Johnson and apparently that was the name if his great grandma. I just don't know and can't get it how suddenly a group of Christians can come up with exact details from meditation and it does smack if research, but they absolutely don't know me so even if they researched I am sure they wouldn't know about the darts/bowls. I have moved town since then and have lived here for 35 years. They wouldn't know that so who would they go to for that info. I am puzzled. And how would they know that I am the life and soul at a party? I am gentle/quiet/unassuming but give me a few wines and I can party till morning haha
 
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It's not research it's cold reading which has thrown up some very generalised statements which you, due to well known and understood psychological processes, have imbued with personal significance.
 
I don't know Squeegee, I too am cynical as I can't believe how spot on they were. They didn't say anything other than what I have said so I am not selecting part of their answers. I do have their written notes and they are brief but what I have told you. Nothing else was said so I am not being selective and leaving other 'bumf' out. It is questionable as to how they got it spot on with others there as even mediums don't get everything right. It does make me think do they go to great lengths investigating every member but then again, the 'three' that are involved with each Alpha attendant aren't part of the Alpha course; they are prayer leaders somewhere else and have not been seen before.
In addition, i went into the room and said nothing. They started to meditate and I kept quiet fully knowing that I should not reveal anything about myself. When they finished meditating they then each said what had come through from 'God'. I still stayed quiet and listened. I gave them no inclination who/what I was/am as I am well awRe of psycics and how to keep my mouth shut... and then they began...
 
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mstricky said:
But what would you think as an atheist if what they said to you were accurate about you and what you were 30/40 years ago
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I know for certain that there are things about myself 30 to 40 years ago that I have misremembered; I know that a friend of mine, who prides herself on her excellent memory, has misremembered things about my life; so I would not in any way believe that anything anybody else said was from God. That is just not credible.
 
I got darts 180, i got bowls, I got cross stitching. I got that honesty means everything to you. I got that you are the life and soul of the party.
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Are you sure they were talking about you? This fits me exactly.

I once made a costume of some regard. To make it fit correctly, I had to put darts in the material on both the front and back (darts 180). As a child, I used to combine all my food into a bowl at dinner, mix it up with a fork and then eat it. I have done some cross stitching, which I gather is rather unusual for a man.

Honesty does mean a lot to me, and I recently investigated the "Light Party" a US newage political movement in California. I believe one of their emails told me something very similar to "you are the life and soul of our party."

Perhaps the messages weren't meant for you, but for me instead. Or both of us.
 
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mstricky said:
Ok Sqeezee this is what one of them said .... I got darts 180, i got bowls, I got cross stitching. I got that honesty means everything to you. I got that you are the life and soul of the party.
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And I see from a couple of posts up thread that we are from the same era. Those were middle-of-the-road, commonly chosen activities of our generation (I'm a bit past mid-70s now!). I bet there were some things they said that were not quite right or you have forgotten or were definitely no's. Did you record those too?? Remember too that your body language, facial expression, give away to others, even both of you may be unaware of it information about your confidence and character.
Another one said... I can see a man with a little girl showing her the birds/butterflies/flowers/trees. That is exactly what my father did. We lived in the country and every Sunday he took me a walk and described the bird types etc.
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Similarly for me - we didn't have TV to give us the close-ups, the colour pictures, etc in our childhood.
Jack no one knows me and therefore couldn't have researched. I am puzzled/mesmorised, there's got to be something up there.
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No, there definitely does not 'have to be'. It's difficult to throw off entirely that idea since it has been around for so many thousands of years but totally rewarding when it's done.
The only thing I can say is this. I will say again that I am an atheist and do not believe that God came to them and gave them all that accurate info. I believe it was the universe and perhaps my dead friends/relatives that came to them and I say that because of the messages I have had from the dead, convinces me that there is something up there but like everyone else, I have no idea what that is.
How would they know what I did in the 70s/80s?
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I strongly recommend a read of at least the first part of Richard Dawkins' book, 'The Magic of Reality'. It is ritten for younger people, but is clear, lively and accurate! There are plenty of threads here in JREF too about cold reading, and about the far more accurate and advanced understanding of human psychology and how the brain works nowadays. Yes, there are things that happen sometimes which appear to be mystifying, and even a few which have to come under the 'we don't know yet' heading, but not one which needs a not-natural, non-human explanation.

And a further edit to say that The first part of my post here indicates that I'm thinking the info you were given was in the past, but of course it was a current thing with the Alpha course you are talking about. However, unless you have an audio recording, total accuracy is difficult. Also one of the reasons a person is portrayed as life and soul, etc is the very fact that they have the self-control and confidence to have decided before hand not to say anything.
In post #130 you say you have their notes, but sceptical me says that's probably not as useful as an audio recording would be!:)
 
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mstricky said:
I don't know Squeegee, I too am cynical as I can't believe how spot on they were.
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They weren't spot on. They made vague statements that you've taken as being specific to you.

Try this:

You've always thought that you should write a book but never got around to it.

You have a small scar on your leg from a childhood injury.

You have a box of small unsorted photographs in your house.

Your father passed on due to problems in his chest or abdomen.

I'm sure that not all of those are 100% right, bear in mind that they're far more specific than the things you were told. So let's examine those.

"Darts 180". Going by the time you gave last night, I'm going to assume that you're in the UK. So, who in the UK hasn't played darts? Especially if they were alive in the 70s and 80s. Every pub had a dartboard back then, and it was a national sport which was on prime time telly.

And that's assuming that it means the sport. Another interpretation has been given above. Just this morning my cat did that thing that animals sometimes do and started running from room to room. It'd dart in to one room, turn around 180 degrees, then dart out again. And the advantage of both mine and marplots' interpretation of this point is that you don't have to ignore the "180" in order to make it fit. And if you're going to tell me that you once got a 180 then so what? So has everybody else. The question is, how is it relevant to your life now?

"Bowls". Given your age, I'd say that you fit the stereotype of the type of person who plays bowls. And, again, it can be interpreted many ways. Bowls that you eat from. Playing cricket.

"Cross stitching". Again, given your age, this would be a common stereotype. And I used to work as a picture framer. We'd get 10-20 cross stitches a week to frame. It's a very, very common hobby.

"Honesty means everything to you". Do you honestly think that this is something unique to you? Do you not believe that this is something everybody believes of themselves?

"You are the life and soul of the party". As I said above, this is such a common thing for people to think of themselves, that it's an example usually given in order to demonstrate the kinds of general statements that can be made that people will think are about just them. You think you're the life and soul of the party? So does everybody.

So you've got 5 vague statements, two of which apply to absolutely everybody, 2 of which are how people of your age (and gender) are stereotyped, and one of which doesn't quite fit you and which would fit, in one way or another, anybody who was over 18 25 years ago. 5 statements from 3 people working at it for 7 minutes. That's not very impressive.

I know how convincing cold reading can be, but that's what you've just experienced.
 
I won't answer each of you individually as there would be too many quotes/posts. All your opinions are as mine when I got home. Trying to puzzle out how they could be so accurate. When they meditated they closed their eyes except to write down their notes. Those notes were given to me after they had read me the info from them. I didn't react at all as they read them out.
I don't know any of my women friends that have/do play darts/bowls. I worked with an otherwise all male staff so it was either sitting twiddling my thumbs each lunch time or going with them to play darts/bowls. Our office was a long way from any shops, so I couldn't amuse myself looking around shops.
Honesty..... yes that would most likely fit a person of my age group.
The little girl being shown birds etc..... I was raised in the countryside, remote from other kids that lived in the cobbled streets, those kids never had the pleasure of going to the countryside. Even my hubby doesn't know the names of trees/birds/flowers etc as he was brought up in a city and again was never taken to the countryside by a doting father.
All in all, i hear what you are all saying and agree that it is suspect but I don't call it cold reading. That's when the medium says something to you and waits for some reaction/clue but that didn't happen here. I have not left out anything they said. I've told you exactly from the short notes they wrote which I have here.
Sue I have Dawkins 'Delusion' but I may get his others from Amazon. I do watch him on youtube.
I still don't know what to think :)
P.S..... The Alpha course is on Youtube, you'd perhaps be able to suss out any deviousness in their talks. To me there is no pressure to 'believe' its up to each individual plus they welcome questions from atheists like me
 
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Cherish those memories of your childhood and be wary of the people who have used carny tricks on you.
 
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mstricky said:
All your opinions are as mine when I got home. Trying to puzzle out how they could be so accurate.
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Nobody believes they were at all accurate other than you. We don't have a personal investment in this, so it's easier for us to see.

All in all, i hear what you are all saying and agree that it is suspect but I don't call it cold reading.
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Whether you call it cold reading or not is irrelevant. It is cold reading.

That's when the medium says something to you and waits for some reaction/clue but that didn't happen here.
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No, no feedback is required for cold reading. A horoscope printed in the newspaper is an example of cold reading.

I still don't know what to think :)
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It's cold reading. That's what you should think.

Look, examine what was actually said, and how you've described it. You've got a bit of paper on which is written the sentence "I can see a man with a little girl showing her the birds/butterflies/flowers/trees", and you described this as "describ[ing] my father and what he taught me, exactly". You really think that's an "exact" description of your father? "A man"? Doesn't that actually describe about half of the population of the planet?

You are attaching more significance to these vague statements than they warrant.
 
mstricky said:
Yes both.... Even though I'm an old biddie mid seventy cricker haha
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Ah, I see the significence of your post now. You think they have info from those accounts. I do not use my real name on them so none of them will be aware I am on there. FB is cut off from anyone other than my close friends/family.
 
mstricky said:
Ah, I see the significence of your post now. You think they have info from those accounts. I do not use my real name on them so none of them will be aware I am on there. FB is cut off from anyone other than my close friends/family.
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No, that can be a source of information for frauds, but there's nothing in what you were actually told which suggests any kind of hot reading. They gave you vague information and you've attached significance to it. Again, you've said that calling your father "a man" is an "exact" description. Can you really not see that the significance is something you're attaching, rather than something that's actually in the words themselves? If I told you that your mother was a woman, would you think I had some kind of powers?

For the record, I think it entirely likely that the people who did this reading truly believe in what they're doing and aren't purposely fooling you. It's entirely possible to do cold reading without realising what it is you're doing.

But cold reading is still what they did.
 
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