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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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To be fair, Filomena, Laura, and Meredith's English friends displayed varying degrees of hostility towards Knox at the trial.

But...... what's very interesting about that is that both prior to the murder and in its immediate aftermath, none of these women had displayed any antipathy towards Knox. Indeed, Filomena - who became a fairly vocal believer in Knox's guilt by the time of the Massei trial - had been extremely friendly and outgoing to Knox in the days following the murder.

What I believe we have seen here is the well-worn phenomenon of ex-post-facto rationalisation: in essence, the girls were instructed by authority figures that Knox was guilty, and this made them retrospectively alter their recollections. In my opinion, it's another fascinating psychological angle in this case.

I agree LJ. But whatever hostility they might have felt toward Amanda and how they came to feel that hostility didn't make them say that Amanda and Meredith did not get along.
 
was it necessary for you to talk about Meredith in such a way? poor form

i don't think the roommates and the English friends had good things to say about knox in their testimonies, b/c Knox commented on that in one of her statements to the court.

You see, the troll succeeded in drawing negative comments about Meredith out of you.
 
[*]Meredith was the girl having sex all the time with the boys downstairs.

While I think she has been sanctified, she didn't have sex with more than one boy down stairs and Amanda had sex with a friend of theirs from Rome. A one night stand as it were.

Meredith was the girl who partied so hard the night before, she still had alcohol in her system when she died.

That is almost impossible as I have demonstrated several times. She would have so much alcohol in her system at 5 am she wouldn't have been able walk. Chris can reference obscure papers but all the mainstream sources say that alcohol is lost at a steady rate of .015 per hour and it isn't dependent on age, sex, size or any factor besides disease.

She was sanctified as I said above and was a party girl that drank a lot but we don't have any proof she was that drunk that morning.

I will agree with Geof on at least one thing; Rudy is a good looking man that was in semi-professional basketball shape and there is no reason to think Meredith might not be interested in him. Giacomo said that his relationship with Meredith was new and not exclusive.

Much has been made by the PGP of Meredith's scolding of Amanda for having a boyfriend at home and seeing Raf specifically and her one man at time belief. I think that Meredith might have been a little stricter for others. Since her relationship with Giacomo was new and non-exclusive I don't think her having an interest in Rudy is far-fetched.
 
the lamp did come up, he asked Knox about it. i saw the transcript. Boom. it is still evidence she was in there even if it wasn't brought up.

Boom. No, it's only evidence that her lamp was in the room. None of the alternative explanations were explored at all.

Here's the thing - it's in such a prime location it should have been tested for fingerprints. If only Knox's fingerprints were found, the prosecution would have to be grossly incompetent to not challenge Knox with that.

They didn't challenge Knox with that.

That leaves only two viable options:

the police didn't test it because they knew (due to police debriefing) who put it there, and it was one of their own
they tested it and found out it had the prints of one of their own on it, or Guede's or Merediths.

luminol would only show streaks if there is bleach. if they just used a sponge and water i don't think that is going to show up.

No, luminol shows streaks on clean up because the clean up streaks the material due to the mechanical action needed.


lol, they didn't test negative for blood b/c luminol reacting with it is a positive for blood.

No, it's a presumptive test for biological substances (although it also does some metals) which includes, but is not limited to, blood.

they just use TMB to confirm but a negative tmb test doesn't rule out blood. Plus luminol is factors more sensitive to blood than TMB.

True, but only in some circumstances. The luminol reaction is relative to the concentration and the substance. The reported luminol reaction was "very intense and distinct", meaning it should not fail a TMB test as it's waaaaaaaay above the detection limit of TMB.

Thus, an intense luminol result but a failed TMB result cannot mean anything else than it being something other than blood.
 
well you have not laid out a logical reason why people in Italy would be out to frame this obscure 20 year old college girl.


I think the problem lies with your use of the term "frame".

The contention of many pro-acquittal/pro-innocence commentators (including me) is that no "framing" whatsoever took place - if "framing" is defined as "pursuing a suspect despite knowing that (s)he is innocent, on the basis of some sort of prior prejudice".

Instead, the contention is as follows: in the immediate aftermath of the murder, the local police and prosecutors were incredibly keen to be competent and speedy - and to be SEEN to be competent and speedy - in solving this international-profile grisly murder. They were keen for three main reasons: 1) personal pride and reputation enhancement; 2) they knew the world was watching them, and were desperately keen to show that Perugia could sort this thing out quickly and efficiently; 3) they had bungled very badly in a very similar - but much lower-profile - murder almost exactly a year earlier, and were therefore desperate to show that they had "learned their lesson".

With all this in mind, the police and prosecutors quickly snatched at theory of the crime, based seemingly on Knox's "unorthodox" behaviour after the murder, and the indisputable fact that Knox and Sollecito had, by their own admissions, been in and around the cottage on their own on the morning after the murder. I believe that by the 3rd November, they had decided amongst themselves that they had "solved the crime". I think they decided that Knox definitely knew far more than she was telling them, and that she was very probably involved at some level. I think they thought that Sollecito was covering for her out of a misguided sense of loyalty, but that he possibly wasn't directly involved himself.

And when they found that Knox had exchanged text messages with someone on the night of the murder, this fed straight into their theory. Why hadn't Knox told them about these text messages? To the police/PM, this could only mean one thing: the text messages were linked to the murder. Were they part of the planning or arrangement?

I think that the police and PM had a definite plan for the night of the 5th/6th of November, by which time I believe they were certain in their own minds that they had figured the big picture out perfectly. I think they planned to get Sollecito in on his own at first, and pressurise him until he finally admitted that he was only covering for Knox. I think this would have been the cue for the "lights and sirens" squad to arrest Knox at Sollecito's apartment (they had high surveillance on Knox and Sollecito, so they'd have known where she was), with some handy media there to record the event.

As it happened, Knox came to the police HQ with Sollecito, so they were denied the spectacle of arresting Knox in public. However, the other part of their scheme went - somewhat - to plan. Sollecito equivocated under pressure that he couldn't be sure whether Knox might have left his apartment that night. Bingo!

The police brought Knox in and confronted her with this "abandonment" of her by Sollecito. Bear in mind that they truly thought they were only uncovering the truth here. When they saw the contents of Knox's sent text from the night of the murder - a clumsily-translated "see you later", they took this as further confirmation of their theory: Knox had clearly set a meeting with the recipient of the test message for later that same night.

But who WAS the recipient? Knox could furnish them with the answer to that: Lumumba. Aha! The police surveillance had seen Knox talking with Lumumba outside the university only that very afternoon (the 5th). IN the police's minds this clearly had to have been a covert meeting between the two to check up on the state of the police investigation, and to remind each other not to say or do anything incriminating.

All the pieces of the puzzle had now fallen into place, in the minds of the police and PM: Knox had clearly arranged to meet with Lumumba on the night of the murder. She had indeed left Sollecito's apartment, met with Lumumba, and taken him to the cottage, whereupon Lumumba had sexually assaulted and killed Meredith. Lumumba was the killer; Knox was guilty of assisting the killer and lying to the police; Sollecito was guilty of lying to the police to protect Knox. Case closed!

They went back in to the interrogation room and told Knox they knew exactly what had happened. Knox, they said, had better tell them everything now, in order to protect herself against both Lumumba and the prospect of a far heavier prison sentence. She MUST REMEMBER now what happened, and tell the police and PM everything. Knox said she couldn't remember anything - that all she remembered was being at Sollecito's all night. "NONSENSE!", the police responded. "We KNOW you were there, and we know Lumumba killed Meredith. Tell us the truth!"

And after half an hour or so of this, Knox broke down and told them that perhaps, yes, she could imagine having met with Lumumba and gone with him to the cottage, where he killed Meredith as she cowered in the kitchen covering her ears.

Cue mutual back-slapping thoughout the police HQ. Call in the PM! We've confirmed our theory! They've all confessed! Case closed! All within five days of the murder! Our reputations are assured!

And the rest, as they say, is history. The police and PM called an extraordinary triumphalist press conference the following morning (the 6th) at which they announced to the watching world that they had indeed "solved the case". Incredibly, Perugia Police Chief Artur De Felice inadvertently confirmed exactly what had happened the previous night, when he stated that Knox had initially given a version of events that the police "knew to be incorrect", but that then she finally "bucked" and gave an account of events that "the police knew to be correct".

As soon as that press conference was over, the police and PM were always going to find it extremely hard to change their theory: they had, after all, "solved the crime" - how could they now say "Um, that first time we said we'd solved the crime wasn't quite correct - we've got a new theory, and NOW we've solved the crime!" But three things made it essentially impossible for the theory to be changed:

First, Lumumba was ruled out of the crime. This would have been a huge blow to the police and PM who had so confidently announced "case closed" to the world's media just days earlier. Oops.

Second, forensic results came back, and clearly implicated an entirely different man - Guede - who had not featured at all in the "case closed" triumphalism.

Thirdly, the PM was (and is) a stubborn, arrogant, hubris-filled man. He wasn't going to admit to having got things so badly wrong on the 6th November, if he could avoid it.

So an easy get-out was constructed: why not just substitute Guede for Lumumba in our theory of the crime? That way, we get to preserve the theory in many ways, and we can just blame Knox for misdirecting us to Lumumba.

And that, in a very large nutshell(!), is how and why - in my belief - the police and PM became fixated on pursuing the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, long after it became obvious that one man (Guede) acting alone had committed the crime.
 
lamp is evidence of a cleanup, looking for stuff on the floor.

No. Besides, where's the cleanup? I can only see blood on the pictures, including footprints made in blood (by Guede).

what about the fact the heel is missing on the floor that matches the bloody print on the mat? Why wouldn't that be there if no cleanup? Boom.

Only if he had blood on the heel AND he actually put the heel on the floor, i.e. the heel wouldn't be there if he was standing on the front part of the foot.

I don't think cleaning means there must be streaks.

You think wrong. No surprise here. Besides, it's visible that there was no cleanup. You can see lots of blood on the pictures, including footprints fully visible to the naked eye.

footprints were theirs. measured and matched. luminol reacts with blood and few other itmes, what was it reacting with if not blood.

Those footprints are irrelevant as they are unconnected to the crime. It is also an exageration to call them footprints. They are amorphous blobs. Have you seen the images? I have.
 
I figured that its sheer heft would crush you, regardless of its logic or reason :D

And with statements like the last one that he's not willing to read what people write in response, he's getting closer and closer to being warned and most probably (most favourite word of Massei) getting banned in the near future.
 
lol,

you don't know what you are talking about, brother.

You have to explain what it was if it isn't blood. that it is how it works. it is blood unless you can give a realistic explanation otherwise. It was on the bottom of their feet.

It couldn't have been bleach at that point given it was a few weeks after the murder.

I think the other option is vegetable pulp. lol

given there was a HUGE volume in blood in the victim's bedroom, i think we can conclude it was blood.

negative tmb test doesn't rule out blood. "should not fail" makes no sense.

Even if it was blood. It is proven by pictures that the scientific police tracked blood around the house after stepping in a pool of blood in the victim's room.
 
the lamp did come up, he asked Knox about it. i saw the transcript. Boom. it is still evidence she was in there even if it wasn't brought up.
So he asked Amanda about it? It doesn't mean anything.
i don't think it is probable that no blood on the heel given how much blood was in the room. lol

Really? the floor was NOT covered in a pool of blood. You need to go back and look at the crime scene photos.
luminol would only show streaks if there is bleach. if they just used a sponge and water i don't think that is going to show up.

Wrong again. If the "wiped" the floor at all, streaks would show up. And of course, how come Rudy left all those bloody shoe prints in Meredith's room and they couldn't find any of Amanda's or Raffaele's? OOOOOPS
lol, they didn't test negative for blood b/c luminol reacting with it is a positive for blood. they just use TMB to confirm but a negative tmb test doesn't rule out blood. Plus luminol is factors more sensitive to blood than TMB.
you should know this by now, it is has been told to you numerous times.
stop being willfilly ignorant in your jihad for Knox. it is an embarrassment.

Are you really this dense? In fact is that it does rule out blood. Luminol is a presumptive test. And TMB is a presumptive test. Standard protocol is to apply Luminol, then if positive, perform a TMB test and then if TMB test is positive, perform a CONFIRMATORY TEST and then if all three are positive to declare a sample as blood. Stefanoni, the dumb one, gets one presumptive positive, then get a negative result and then doesn't perform any confirmatory test and then hides the negative TMB test and declares that doesn't matter..

The proof is, that it ISN'T blood.

The only person who should be embarrassed is you.
 
cleanup means looking for stuff like earrings etc that might have come off during the struggle.

ok i am going to roll out for awhile given you guys are denying the evidence. no wonder you think there is no case. lol

i don't think luminol reacts with water so if they cleaned up the blood with water/rag then there shouldn't be a reaction. it would have been dumb for them to bleach the bathroom as that would be a sure sign of a cleanup. these were smart kids, by your account. lol

i don't think it is probable that a. there was no blood on his foot and/or b. he was walking around on his toes tips.

There was no cleanup, blood is easily visible including footprints made in blood (by Guede). Regarding the streaks, I'm going witht he opinion of people with experience in analysis of crime scenes, sorry for that. I also can't see how you can clean up something without creating the streaks. If you're cleaning it means you're moving the fluid around, so it will create the streaks.

Why is it not probable that there was no blood on his shoes?
 
You see, the troll succeeded in drawing negative comments about Meredith out of you.

With all due respect Poppy. I never made a single negative comment about Meredith. NOT one.

I'm of the opinion that there is nothing negative about experimenting with sex.

I don't think that a virgin is any more worthy in this world than someone who enjoys sex.

Only repressed prudes would think there is anything wrong with Meredith's or Amanda's behavior.
 
nah that isn't what I'm doing at all. I mean, she had just told them a few hours before that Patrick is the killer. So why would she be asking t hem already if there is evidence he committed the crime, plus she knows he didn't commit the crime. So she's hoping they get something on him but at the same time she wants to walk it back if they don't.

It is hard to say she is being truthful given her boyfriend just said she told him to lie, and then she changed her story to the cops to include an innocent man killing the victim.

Obviously, it is what you are doing, from beginning to end. She had to have been present at the cottage before she could know Patrick did not commit the crime.

The rest of your post describes things other than Knox's statement. The first, she had just told them a few hours before that Patrick is the killer contains your implied opinion about the nature of the interrogation - that is was non coercive and was spoken with the intent to deceive. she's hoping they get something on him but at the same time she wants to walk it back if they don't. offers your opinion on what she is hoping her lie will accomplish. And the last offers your opinion about Knox's behavior during the interrogation.

Hence, as far this post refers to Knox's written statement to the police after her arrest is concerned, you must have concluded she was guilty before you concluded that she knows he didn't commit the crime. You are then using that statement to prove she is guilty. This is circular reasoning.

You are simply repeating your opinion that she is guilty without offering evidence of her guilt. You are not furthering your reasoning as to why you believe she is guilty. It's okay with me if you think Knox is guilty. But you are not offering an argument as to why you think she is guilty. Not in this post or the one it derives from.

For more info on your style of "arguing", please refer here .
 
nope, TMB can't rule out blood if Luminol gets positive.

Luminol is factors more sensitive. plus applying the Luminol can actually make it tougher for TMB to pick up afterward, as I understand.

this is all on the murder of Meredith website. i based all my info on that. I memorized the entire website.

Can you show us the results of the confirmatory test? No? I though so.

Even if it was blood, it could easily have been tracked by the police woman (or man) you can see in the picture stepping on a pool of blood.
 
So I decided it would be reasonable to re-read the SC's ruling regarding Guede and along with more and less interesting things I found this:

Page 8, English translation:

The judge of the first-degree trial held that the crime was committed together with other
people, because of Kercher's DNA found on a knife seized at the house of Knox's boyfriend,
Raffaele Sollecito because of the footprints left on the floor of Kercher's room which came
from at least two different people, because of the declarations of Nara Capezzali who lived
near via della Pergola 7 and who, during the night, right after hearing an agonised scream,
clearly heard the sound of stones and leaves on the path leading to the house where Kercher
and Knox lived, made by at least two people running in opposite directions, and because of
the declarations of Alessandra Formica and Antonio Curatolo, who were both near the scene
of the crime at around the time of the crime. Alessandra Formica saw a black man running
away from via della Pergola who bumped into the man with her, LM, and didn't even turn
around, and Antonio Curatolo recognised Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox in Piazza
Grimana, plausibly when they came there from via della Pergola.

It's amazing how weak this is. It's amazing how all of this is still dragging on for six years because these few points. It makes it even less complicated now for Nencini, hopefully.

Going back to reading. Maybe I'll find something else.
 
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i don't think anybody has argued Meredith was a perfect good little girl. Well maybe those PMF people. lol

I could see her being kind of full of herself, she was in a music video afterall. And Knox resented Meredith for her conceit and her rage boiled over when drugs were added to the mix and the weird rape porn loving boyfriend with the knife fetish.

Boom.

Now you're just making stuff up. Do you have any evidence for any of this?
 
ok, well you have to tell us what it is , if not blood. They use Luminol to check for blood. It isi assumed to be blood unless there is reason to believe it something else like bleach.

I don't have to. I don't know what it is. I don't have to know what it is.

I can tell you that blood is least probable thing because otherwise we'd have the confirmatory test results showing it is blood.

Even if it is blood it could have been tracked by the police woman (man) seen in a picture stepping in a pool of blood.

Plus:

in most cases they're not really footprints but amorphous blobs

without proving that it is really blood (with a confirmatory test) and doing a DNA test of that blood sample proving that it belongs to Meredith, they don't even have a solid connection to the crime

They don't fit with the rest of the evidence
 
nope, TMB can't rule out blood if Luminol gets positive.

Luminol is factors more sensitive. plus applying the Luminol can actually make it tougher for TMB to pick up afterward, as I understand.

this is all on the murder of Meredith website. i based all my info on that. I memorized the entire website.

You should get your information from places more authoritative than a Guilter website. How about trying actual forensic science websites and forums for a change?

While Luminol is slightly more sensitive, Luminol reacts to different elements in blood than TMB. There would be NO REASON for a detective to perform a TMB test on a sample if the only difference was sensitivity. Luminol reacts to anything with iron, one of the most common element on the planet as well as many other substances. TMB is used to narrow the possibilities. The TMB test is not redundant, it is a complimentary.

Still, even if the TMB reacted positively to the substance, a CONFIRMATORY TEST for blood would be required. The simple fact that Stefanoni, did not perform such a simple confirmatory test shows that she is either an idiot or she didn't think it was blood. I think the latter is most likely.

Although it is possible that Stefanoni is an idiot.
 
You have to explain what it was if it isn't blood. that it is how it works.

No it isn't. You have to explain why you think it was blood.

it is blood unless you can give a realistic explanation otherwise.

Already have, the realistic explanation is that the results as reported are incompatible with it being blood.

negative tmb test doesn't rule out blood. "should not fail" makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense.

Luminol reacts according to the concentration of the substance. A higher concentration results in a more intense glow. A luminol hit below the detection level for TMB would result in a very minimal and barely detectable luminol glow. Thus, we can exclude it being blood below the detection level for TMB if it glows intensely. It should therefore pass a TMB test if it's blood.
 
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