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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Bill Williams said:
Apparently this business of Rudy talking to the media (on the day of Meredith's murder! The gall!) has guilters in a bit of a tizzy, but not for that reason....

Edward McCall has tweeted that 75% of people who believe in Knox's and Sollecito's innocence are racists.

Guilter like McCall seem to be giving Rudy a free pass with this diversion, playing the race card and dealing from the bottom of the deck.

I tend to agree with this.

If Knox had accused an innocent black man of murder in the United States, nobody would think she is innocent.
My view is that Amanda Knox's conviction for calunnia is a wrongful conviction. Connect the dots as to what transpired at interrogation, and what she was doing was assenting to the theory the interrogators had - namely Ficarra - that a black man had done the crime.

Does that make Ficarra a racist?

My view is that race, for Amanda at least, had nothing to do with this. She was a virtual teenager (4 months into her 20s) who didn't speak the language, who thought that by imagining things she was helping the police.

The Reid Technique of interrogation is key here. Read up on it and see if you don't change your mind. Whereas her "declarations" were not "false confessions" per se, the Reid Technique is banned in some jurisdictions for being used on the young for precisely this reason.

This is not an issue of race at all. The only race-card that's been played is by a failed prosecution who wanted to deal it from the bottom of the deck when no other evidence was there to suggest either Knox or Sollecito were even there.

Look at it this way - is there a reason for Knox to have "named" Lumumba while still innocent of the murder? She had good reason to be scared of Lumumba if the cops were telling her he'd just murdered Meredith and that her imaginings could help them prove it.
 
I Googled Hillary Clinton and Amanda Knox and it does not appear Hillary has made a statement on Amanda Knox being innocent. It appears she meet with the Washington senator and that is it .

Is this incorrect?

That is essentially correct. Except it was four law enforcement experts who met with Sen. Cantwell and about 35 congressional staffers from other offices. Ms. Knox was not there.
 
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So basically you are saying that the prosecution gives as little as they can and if the defense experts don't request information withing a relatively short period of time that's just too bad for the defendants.

The prosecution deposits evidence at the clerk's office, and the evidence in this investigation does not consist in DNA findings on the knife and bra claps, but in many other things.
In the Italian system there are basically two kinds of evidence collected over the investigation. The ones collected with a procedure called "incidente probatorio", and the ones that are "documents and witnsses".

Basically all kinds of evidence in the Italian system are considered 'testimonies', they always include witnesses, they are not factual elements but always human testimony, human report about facts. A piece of documentation (like a photo) is always together with some human witness.

But all the evidence of the second kind, which are witness and documents without "incidnte probatorio", are not a documentation that can be brought into the trial as it is; they have no probative value as long as they are files during the investigation, as long as they are within the prosecution file. In order to exist, they must be "formed" (built, discussed, put together) in the courtroom. Formare is an Italian verb with a meaning similar to "build".
Some documentation can't be entered: you can't, for example, enter a video recording or transcript or minutes of an interrogation in a trial. You can't enter documents from police investigations and so on.

The evidence of the second kind, called "incidente probatorio", instead, they are events of the investigaion which have a value, which "exist" for the judge, and they become part of the trial documents, as if they were court hearings. As if they were transcripts of debates between prosecution and defence, court witnesses, etc.

The problem here is not the relatively short period of time (which anyway was nine months), here the point is the status of "incidente probatorio" of the investigations performed by Stefanoni. They are intended to be events that will remain as they are. They took place before the court hearings. The time for taking part to such events is when the defence is summoned, which usually happend before the preliminary hearing.

If the defense was incapacitated to do necessary request (they didn't know, were not told, didn't have the means etc) they can be allowed to do that later.
Here, they were allowed to get further documentation even if they requested it very late (July 2009), and to the wrong people.
Bongiorno and Ghirga requested some documentation at the preliminary hearing. But the defence experts were offered access to the laboratory documentation before, that is before Stefanoni's technical report was deposited.
The defence actually "waited" for the Stefanoni's technical report to be issued, before accessing information, and this is what they shouldn't have done. The Stafanoni's technical report is the result of an "incidente probatorio" procedure and you can't read it before, and then request to access the information after.
 
The defence actually "waited" for the Stefanoni's technical report to be issued, before accessing information, and this is what they shouldn't have done. The Stafanoni's technical report is the result of an "incidente probatorio" procedure and you can't read it before, and then request to access the information after.

So you're all in favour of innocent people being convicted over faulty procedure.
 
Yes, it was in 1980. A "laurea" degree in Italy has only ever meant an undergraduate degree. And since 1980, specific new post-graduate qualifications have been introduced. If you don't have one such post-graduate qualification, you're not a doctoral-level academic (as defined by the rest of the academic world).

Stefanoni does not have any post-graduate (i.e. post-laurea) qualifications. Therefore, she's not a PhD equivalent. Therefore, she's not entitled to term herself "doctor" outside of the time-warp that is Italy. (...)

But you can't say that.
You can't state that Stefanoni has no PhD.
I never asked Stefanoni actually, so I don't know what she did and who her professors were, but if you wish to have her curriculum vitae, you should e-mail her and ask her. Instead of making wild unsupported claims. You are claiming that Stefanoni has no PhD, and you have no element to make this claim.
At the moment, we know that she worked eight years in a post where you obtain and/or you are required post graduate education, and also given the caliber of the university (which has an important doctorate in Genetics), and given that there is at least one international publication reporting Stefanoni as an academic author, everything suggests she has indeed a PhD.
I don't have a proof because I never investigated, but if you are interested in the thing then you should search to find out instead of making claims which you can't back.
 
Why does she need a PhD if she's not doing research kind of stuff?

Do most DNA / forensics experts in the States have a PhD? I can't see it.


That's not the issue. The issue of Stefanoni's qualifications - and it's a peripheral issue in the context of the trials of Knox/Sollecito - is whether or not she should be given the honorific "doctor" outside Italy. Certain pro-guilt commentators have deliberately referred to her as a doctor, almost certainly in order to imbue her with a level of academic qualification (a PhD) that she does not possess.

As I and others have said both here and elsewhere, at the end of the day it's somewhat irrelevant what Stefanoni's qualifications are (although it's sneaky and mendacious to try to falsely inflate qualifications....). Instead, what's actually important is the way in which she egregiously flouted critical protocols and procedures in the way she dealt with the forensic evidence in this case.
 
How did Steve Moore's testimony go? I heard he testified in front of Congress. How do they decide who is qualified to talk about this murder case? Given Moore isn't in Italy and doesn't have access to all the evidence, it dooesn't seem like they would want to talk to him.
You need to ask Sen. Cantwell. It's obvious you do not consider him an expert - apparently some members of the US Congress do.

What's your point?
 
But you can't say that.
You can't state that Stefanoni has no PhD.
I never asked Stefanoni actually, so I don't know what she did and who her professors were, but if you wish to have her curriculum vitae, you should e-mail her and ask her. Instead of making wild unsupported claims. You are claiming that Stefanoni has no PhD, and you have no element to make this claim.
At the moment, we know that she worked eight years in a post where you obtain and/or you are required post graduate education, and also given the caliber of the university (which has an important doctorate in Genetics), and given that there is at least one international publication reporting Stefanoni as an academic author, everything suggests she has indeed a PhD.
I don't have a proof because I never investigated, but if you are interested in the thing then you should search to find out instead of making claims which you can't back.


I can state that Stefanoni has no PhD. Is that good enough for you? :D

PS: Is this "high-calibre" university the same one which is currently ranked #607 in the world? I'm confused!

PPS: Do you know Daniele Spisso, by any chance.......? ;)
 
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How did Steve Moore's testimony go? I heard he testified in front of Congress. How do they decide who is qualified to talk about this murder case? Given Moore isn't in Italy and doesn't have access to all the evidence, it dooesn't seem like they would want to talk to him.

He didn't testify in front of Congress. He and his colleagues offered a presentation, and anyone who was interested could attend. As far as I know, it went well. All of the people who presented know the case backward and forward.
 
I Googled Hillary Clinton and Amanda Knox and it does not appear Hillary has made a statement on Amanda Knox being innocent. It appears she meet with the Washington senator and that is it .

Is this incorrect?
No, it is in fact correct. Clinton more or less passed it off to the Italian courts "to find justice".
 
No, it is in fact correct. Clinton more or less passed it off to the Italian courts "to find justice".

Not exactly. If Hilary met with Maria, it was never publicized. Hilary's spokesperson from the State Dept. said something about looking into the case; I can't remember the quote now, but will see if I can find it. There was never any kind of public statement about the US choosing to stay out of it or leave it to the Italians.
 
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I tend to agree with this.

If Knox had accused an innocent black man of murder in the United States, nobody would think she is innocent.


The problem with your math is that most of the people that think Amanda is innocent don't think she had accused anyone of the murder.


ETA: and welcome to our little corner of the online discussion.
 
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When Amanda entered the police station on that fateful evening she was NOT afraid of Lumumba. She sought employment and Lumumba hired her. She energetically handed out flyers on the street to bring customers to his pub and she worked there two evenings a week as a waitress. It was only during the police's "interaction" with her "behind the curtain" when they implied to/told her that HE is the murderer that Amanda became afraid of Lumumba. To understand it, just listen to the tapes . . . You know, the ones that the police recorded but then had to make disappear.
 
So you're all in favour of innocent people being convicted over faulty procedure.

But what faulty procedure? Here we are talking about people who falsely accuse Stefanoni of being a cheater - a criminal - who refuses to turn over documentation because she intends to hide alleged exculpatory evidence.
This claim is the topic being discussed.
This claim is either true or false.
And it's false.

The defence (actually forum posters, above all) claim they were denied discovery they had a right to, or anyway complain that they didn't have it.
The reason why they complain in the trial, is that it's the only argument they have. if they want to find a pretext and build some trial narrative; whilst the reason why they were denied this by the judges at later stages is because the procedure is unfavourable to them.
But this hardly has to do with the reason why the defendants are convicted. It's not that they are convicted because the judge denies the knife raw data.
 
If the defense was incapacitated to do necessary request (they didn't know, were not told, didn't have the means etc) they can be allowed to do that later.
Here, they were allowed to get further documentation even if they requested it very late (July 2009), and to the wrong people.
Bongiorno and Ghirga requested some documentation at the preliminary hearing. But the defence experts were offered access to the laboratory documentation before, that is before Stefanoni's technical report was deposited.
The defence actually "waited" for the Stefanoni's technical report to be issued, before accessing information, and this is what they shouldn't have done. The Stafanoni's technical report is the result of an "incidente probatorio" procedure and you can't read it before, and then request to access the information after.

Why? Would stefanoni have written different report if she knew she would get caught lying?
 
Originally Posted by yimyammer View Post
is it possible to determine where Rafs phone was when this text was received?

If so, was that determined?

I'm not sure if it would prove anything but perhaps it would tighten the timeline

Regardless of where the phone was, it doesn't say where Raff was. There is no reason for the phone to be turned off except for privacy. Leaving the phone on and at home would provide a better alibi than turning it off.

I personally don't believe the phone was turned off even though Raffaele's defense might have stipulated that it could have been turned off because the issue is only a distraction. The most probable event is that the phone stayed in Raffaele's pants pocket when the pants were stripped off and tossed into a corner as the two lovers tested the springs on Raff's bed. The phone could not receive a signal until Raff removed it from his pants to put it on the charger before going to bed at 6am.

Raffaele may have a different memory of these events. He has reconstructed his memory of that evening from the scattered facts much as I have assembled my scenario. I wouldn't be able to reconcile our versions without a long personal discussion with Raff and there is no reason to and probably advisable for him not to do that until after this case is sorted legally.

I'm with you Dan, it really doesn't matter. But I think the text was technically received in the morning and was sent the previous evening. What that means is the following. That the phone was not connected to the wireless network for a window of time. This is why the prosecution speculated that the phone was turned off. It could easily mean there just wasn't a link to a tower. "no service" There were places in his apartment where getting a signal was problematic. So the phone in the pant pockets of the jeans on the floor could just as easily be the reason a text wasn't received as anything else.
 
I can state that Stefanoni has no PhD. Is that good enough for you? :D
(...)

Well you can lie. If you like, and I know you sometimes do. It's not the first time you make wild claims about various topics (catalyzer was the last...).
While if you decide to be honest and logical, you can't.
 
But what faulty procedure? Here we are talking about people who falsely accuse Stefanoni of being a cheater - a criminal - who refuses to turn over documentation because she intends to hide alleged exculpatory evidence.
This claim is the topic being discussed.
This claim is either true or false.
And it's false.

The defence (actually forum posters, above all) claim they were denied discovery they had a right to, or anyway complain that they didn't have it.
The reason why they complain in the trial, is that it's the only argument they have. if they want to find a pretext and build some trial narrative; whilst the reason why they were denied this by the judges at later stages is because the procedure is unfavourable to them.
But this hardly has to do with the reason why the defendants are convicted. It's not that they are convicted because the judge denies the knife raw data.

Fortunately all this is moot. The Caribinieri had already turned over both positive AND negative controls to the defence, as well as the RAW files.... in short, the Carabinieri are making full disclosure - probably most probably the new prosecutor in Florence - so there will not be the same argument.

The Carabinieri seem to know what full disclosure is all about and do not rely on Machiaveliian word games about procedure. And so far it looks like the Carabinieri are sustaining what Conti & Vecchiotti reported.
 
Well you can lie. If you like, and I know you sometimes do. It's not the first time you make wild claims about various topics (catalyzer was the last...).
While if you decide to be honest and logical, you can't.


Aww you didn't include or respond to the rest of my post! Why is that, Machiavelli?!
 
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