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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Here's Profazio with a picture definitely from the time of the murder, he's the one in yellow in the trophy pic of Amanda they put in the hall in Rome with those of serial killers and mafia kingpins--before she'd even been charged with anything.

His beard isn't as full as the other pic and he's going without the glasses. I can't tell from the crime scene video of the bathroom pic being taken whether or not that person has the hint of a beard there, like Profazio would. Can anyone else?

At any rate he sure looks like he fits the 'short fat' requirement, and I came across another thing suggesting that in the other story I linked of him leading the cartwheels chorus:

Nick Squires Telegraph 2/27/09 said:
Detective Profazio said there was evidence of a burglary at the house, with a window broken in a bedroom belonging to one of the Italian girls.

But he immediately noticed something odd about the apparent break-in. The window which had been broken was so high up that it would have required "a superhuman effort" to clamber up to it.

'Superhuman'--for Profazio maybe! Not for those in better shape though, they just waltz right up while he's saying 'cartwheels' ten times. I wonder if he could even do a cartwheel for that matter!
 
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About this article from the Independent:

I won't say the Independent was 'making it up' throug all the article, instead it seems rather balanced, even if synthetic and inprecise on several things.
But all what the article says about the Italian press is:



About these two phrases, I can say: 1. it is just false that photographs of Amanda were ever accompained by images of Pinocchio: here the author is making it up. I think there is not even one instance of a picture of Knox published together with an image of Pinocchio. I don't think something like that was ever published.
It is true that Knox is regarded as a liar by most Italians. I don't think this is because of an unbalanced press, I think it's the effect of what Knox said.
2. The only source I know calling Knox "luciferina" was Carlo Pacelli (Lumumba's lawyer) in 2009. I never heard any newspaper calling Knox "luciferina" before that.
I recall only one case of a newspaper (La Nazione, what I call a semi-tabloid) which made a cover publishing a picture about "Amanda's icy blue eyes". That was in 2008 I think. (Amanda's look in courtroom was indeed not particularly empathic).

About Dempsey: indeed, I was the one who translated the articles (she was unable to understand Italian and she resorted on google translations), but it is not true that "the Italian media" removed them, the newspaper that used to kep the articles online just for one day it was only one, Il Giornale dell'Umbria. A local paper. And a very accurate and balanced newspaper actually.
Meo Ponte on La Repubblica was just 'favorable' to Knox more than a unbalanced reporting would suggest (he was slanted in her favor, imho). Fiorenza Sarzanini was an excellent journalist, she was objective.

Machiavelli;you are aware that a reporter from the newspaper that you call "accurate and balanced"interviewed Curatolo and the owner of the grocery store,both of these individuals had been interviewed by the police in the days after the murder both had made statements that they saw nothing on the night of the murder and had nothing to add to the investigation,six to twelve months later both were interviewed by a reporter from the paper that you say is"accurate and balanced"both become super witnesses both changed their origional stories completely

"Both are willing perjurers for the for the few euro's got for an interview"
As RandyN would say "only in Italy"
 
Do you think The Independent was making it up? How about The Times and The Guardian? They all quoted and cited Italian media over and over.

Italians have the internet, too, I presume?

Candace cited many Italian articles in the process of writing her blog, as you know. Unfortunately at that time, there was often only a day to get the links before the Italian media removed them.

It is interesting the media fight over scoops and one of few things I enjoyed about Barbie's book. This details the fight over a story and the monies involved......

http://translate.google.com/transla...ang_it&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=601&tbs=lr:lang_1it

The mindset of paying for a scoop carry over to liars like Curatolo and Quintavalle, imo.
 
Machiavelli,

  1. Can you identify the guy in the mask taking pictures in the image that has been posted several times lately?
  2. Would you identify him if you could?
  3. Do you know what happened to his pictures?
  4. Were any or all of them turned over to the defense in the discovery process?
  5. Do you think the pictures the guy was taking were the ones sold to the British tabloids?
  6. Could you tell us about the police investigation to determine what the source of the photographs sold to the British tabloids was?
  7. Has Mignini ever publically denied that he took the pictures or made a statement about what happened to the pictures taken by the big fat guy at the crime scene investigation?

For the record, while I appreciate the tentative credit Kaosium gave me for finding out that the copyright was owned by Profazio, I don't think I deserved the credit I did look into this issue when it was discussed a year or so ago and all I could find was that the copyright was owned by a company that I don't recall the name of right now. Finding out that Profazio held the copyright sounds like another piece of nice research by LJ.

It looked like such an obvious breech of Italian law that photographs were taken by presumably a state employee at a crime scene and sold to the media that I had assumed there would have been an investigation into it unless the perpetrator was a member of a protected class of law enforcement. There didn't seem to be an investigation so my guess was that the photographer and seller of the copyright was Mignini. However, it is just as believable that the perpetrator was a highly placed employee of the Perugian Police department assuming he was a big fat guy.

I thought I recalled that Settonce (7 Oz.) photography of Perugia and/or owner Roberto Settonce had something to do with these shots.

I wonder how Dom Profazio knows Settonce.
 
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Here's Profazio with a picture definitely from the time of the murder, he's the one in yellow in the trophy pic of Amanda they put in the hall in Rome with those of serial killers and mafia kingpins--before she'd even been charged with anything.

His beard isn't as full as the other pic and he's going without the glasses. I can't tell from the crime scene video of the bathroom pic being taken whether or not that person has the hint of a beard there, like Profazio would. Can anyone else?

At any rate he sure looks like he fits the 'short fat' requirement, and I came across another thing suggesting that in the other story I linked of him leading the cartwheels chorus:



'Superhuman'--for Profazio maybe! Not for those in better shape though, they just waltz right up while he's saying 'cartwheels' ten times. I wonder if he could even do a cartwheel for that matter!

Wasn't there some hilarious frontal shot of Profazio wearing that awful yellow sweater? As I recall, the sweater may have had Denmark graphic on the front or something. A truly terrible outfit for a fat guy.
 
So much for the principle of not inflaming public opinion

From the Independent article by Mary Minihan previously cited, "Investigators have produced a psychological profile of Amanda Knox which, translated by the Italian news agency ANSA, describes her as having a "multi-level personality" and being "'self-possessed, shrewd, cunning and, at the same time, naive."" Translation: Amanda and Raffaele are brilliant when the storyline requires them to be clever, and they are idiots when the storyline requires them to be foolish. Even if the nonexistent psychological profile actually existed, it would constitute a serious breach of the principle that the authorities should stay essentially silent, sub judice. In the U.S. the prosecutor is supposed only to release a minimum of information and is cautioned against inflaming public opinion. My impression of British rules is that they are at least as strict, possibly stricter.
 
Wasn't there some hilarious frontal shot of Profazio wearing that awful yellow sweater? As I recall, the sweater may have had Denmark graphic on the front or something. A truly terrible outfit for a fat guy.

I don't recall that one, but I do agree he must look better in his uniform. That looks like one of those dreadful blazers ABC sports guys from the Seventies wore. Ugh!
 
No?
You say no? You are saying Grinder and RandyN did not suggest that it is the prosecution (or me) who should prove that Mignini did not put forward a Satanic ritual scenario?

This is exactly what RandyN and Grinder said. Regardless of my means.

And again, do you want a translation of a quote from Mignini's speech?
(meanwhile, didn't you read carefully the part quoted by Katody? Did you notice what scenario that actually describes?).

Sorry but I don't believe I said that but since this has been going round for so long... In fact I'll grant you that Mignini didn't say it "on the record."

What I said was that it really doesn't make a difference to me whether it was a satanic rite or ritual or just a rite or a sex game - I don't see evidence of any of them. Do you?

Now what I did ask you to explain how completely disgraced judges' verdicts can stand. How can the judgment on calunnia be accepted when it is obvious to you and the ISC that Hellmann's court was not competent.
 
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Here's Profazio with a picture definitely from the time of the murder, he's the one in yellow in the trophy pic of Amanda they put in the hall in Rome with those of serial killers and mafia kingpins--before she'd even been charged with anything.

His beard isn't as full as the other pic and he's going without the glasses. I can't tell from the crime scene video of the bathroom pic being taken whether or not that person has the hint of a beard there, like Profazio would. Can anyone else?

At any rate he sure looks like he fits the 'short fat' requirement, and I came across another thing suggesting that in the other story I linked of him leading the cartwheels chorus:



'Superhuman'--for Profazio maybe! Not for those in better shape though, they just waltz right up while he's saying 'cartwheels' ten times. I wonder if he could even do a cartwheel for that matter!

Isn't it funny that the little fat guy is the one who seems repeatedly shocked at displays of physical feats, e.g., burglars climbing through windows and co-eds doing yoga?

I think Profazio would be a better cop if he would lay off the donuts.
 
From the Independent article by Mary Minihan previously cited, "Investigators have produced a psychological profile of Amanda Knox which, translated by the Italian news agency ANSA, describes her as having a "multi-level personality" and being "'self-possessed, shrewd, cunning and, at the same time, naive."" Translation: Amanda and Raffaele are brilliant when the storyline requires them to be clever, and they are idiots when the storyline requires them to be foolish. Even if the nonexistent psychological profile actually existed, it would constitute a serious breach of the principle that the authorities should stay essentially silent, sub judice. In the U.S. the prosecutor is supposed only to release a minimum of information and is cautioned against inflaming public opinion. My impression of British rules is that they are at least as strict, possibly stricter.

Machiavelli reacts violently when one points out.....

...... that Judge Massei's motivations report describes them as normal kids. The ONLY thing Massei describes about them that is remotely "abnormal" is what Massei alleges is a "brief choice for evil" on Nov 1.

Otherwise BOTH lower courts (Massei's and Hellmann's) found no psychopathology in them - most certainly NOT the psychopathology which would allow the students to have "multi-level personalities".

Did the PLE ever solicit a professional psychological evaluation of Knox and/or Sollecito to arrive at this claim? No matter, Machiavelli similarly did not solicit such a professional opinion when he claimed that Amanda Knox could choose not to sleep, and that therefore she was able to go into interrogation 4 days later having had no/limited sleep still refreshed and able to pull the wool over seasoned investigators' eyes.

It's amazing how the PLE needs to have this random, American virtual teenager be the most cunning criminal since Moriarty did battle with Sherlock Holmes, while at the same time being a dense foreigner.

It's why Machiavelli appears desperate. Sorry, that's just the way I see it. (And Andrea Vogt tweets that she's bored with following the same evidence for the last six years. Me, I think that's shorthand for none of the evidence at the Nencini trial has gone the haters' way.)
 
From the Independent article by Mary Minihan previously cited, "Investigators have produced a psychological profile of Amanda Knox which, translated by the Italian news agency ANSA, describes her as having a "multi-level personality" and being "'self-possessed, shrewd, cunning and, at the same time, naive."" Translation: Amanda and Raffaele are brilliant when the storyline requires them to be clever, and they are idiots when the storyline requires them to be foolish. Even if the nonexistent psychological profile actually existed, it would constitute a serious breach of the principle that the authorities should stay essentially silent, sub judice. In the U.S. the prosecutor is supposed only to release a minimum of information and is cautioned against inflaming public opinion. My impression of British rules is that they are at least as strict, possibly stricter.

Yes, Chris, British Sub judice rules are extremely strict. From the moment someone is officially charged with a crime in the UK, the media goes essentially silent (except to report on factual issues such as court dates and legal issues) until the trial. During the trial, coverage is constrained, and it's only after conviction that the press can really 'go to town'. The role of the British tabloids (and wider press to a lesser extent, as they mainly committed sins of omission) in this case has been shameful. It shows that the threat of contempt of court charges is the only thing stopping them from deciding the fates of accused people themselves. There's no real ethical and professional standards at all in the coverage of foreign cases. Give them a Shrien Dewani or an Amanda Knox and they're happier than pigs in, well, stuff.
The police and prosecution, aided and abetted by Italian and British media, conducted a sustained and thorough smear campaign that, in itself, guaranteed that Amanda Knox (and Raffaelle almost by association) would never receive a fair trial.
That's why it's so extremely galling when guilters (and head-guilter Mignini) talk about the PR firm and the 'propaganda' against Mignini, et al....
I just sorted all the Mirror's coverage 'oldest first' and it's just a catalogue of evidence that either didn't make it into the Massei trial, because it didn't even hold up to the most rudimentary scrutiny, or that was judged by most impartial commentators to be obviously without credibility. And there's not one single corrective article along the lines of 'CCTV footage wasn't of Foxy after all' or 'Amanda never pulled a knife on Kokomani- he's crazy'
 
Isn't it funny that the little fat guy is the one who seems repeatedly shocked at displays of physical feats, e.g., burglars climbing through windows and co-eds doing yoga?

I think Profazio would be a better cop if he would lay off the donuts.

I suspect, more than anything else, that was what was responsible for their whole investigation going downhill. They saw the window and figured climbing it too difficult, obviously not realizing like a burglar would the crossbars on the window beneath it served as a ladder. That and the fact (as far as we know) only Meredith's purse was plundered caused them to start looking at those with keys, fixing their gaze inexorably upon the residents until sometime around when they wiretapped them and checked their phone records they came across the text message Patrick had sent her that she hadn't told them about that could be read to suggest she went to meet him....
 
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For example, let's put a logical question (se how you would answer to it):
In a murder investigation where a knife was used to stab or slite the trhoat, the witness (or suspect) A, after explaining he/she has confused memories, unrequested, tells the police: "I remember I saw blood on the hands of Mr. X". Does this mean the person A intends to place evidence against Mr. X? Please chose an answer:
yes/no

If you answered "yes", I would say you answer was correct; it means, what I think is that it is the logical answer.
The answer is "yes", the witness/suspect A is consiously placing evidence against Mr. X.
It is theoretically possible that the person did not mean to place such evidence; however, I think that - albeit theoretically possible - the hypothesis is not reasonable. It is intrinsically extremely unlikely that the person A - given that he/she has a normal brain - is unaware that he/she is placing evidence against Mr. X.

Knox's memoir contains also another statement, the one where she says: "I am aware Raffaele has placed evidence against me". (I quote by memory).
So the writer is also aware that Mr. X has placed evidence against her. This emphasizes the concept that she seems to be aware about what placing evidence agaisnt an accomplice means.

My answer is no.
There's two major reasons for this:
1) The key word in your question is 'intends'. Witness A has already stated his / her state of mental confusion. If the context is that this witness has been through a thoroughly mentally and emotionally disruptive few days, then such confusion would be within normal psychological parameters. If the context is also that said witness has been informed that a second witness (B), whom she trusts, has placed her at a crime scene, contrary to her own memories, and the police, whom she also trusts, have informed her they have 'hard evidence' that places her there, then that mental confusion would be compounded. A well respected expert in the psychological community has written many peer-reviewed papers about exactly what the consequences of such a state are for many people. Anyway, in a general sense, this kind of state can very well limit the mental capacity required for true intentionality.
Also, you seem to think that there's binary states; conscious and unconscious. That the only alternative to a fully conscious and intentional act is one that the subject is unaware of making completely. This is clearly not the case. The law clearly recognises that there are in between states, hence the necessity for proving mens rea as well as actus rea. And although these literally translate into guilty mind and guilty act, it refers to the wider sphere of human action, and states that in order for there to be an action, there must be a physical component and a mental component. And that mental component has to be executed by a mind which has the capacity to understand the nature of the act itself, and to be able to understand some of the relevant context of the act, for example the potential consequences. Actus rea, if witness A said those words, is proved, fine. But to show mens rea, you'd have some more work to do, other than stating that the witness was aware of making these sounds with her mouth.
So once you can see this, then you have to admit that your estimate of probability is flawed. However unlikely it was that witness A was completely unaware of her words (a state only likely with neurological problems or severe / unusual psychiatric disorder)the added possibilities that the witness did not understand the nature of the act, or the context acted in, raises the probability that witness A 'did not mean to place such evidence'.
2) Witness A's reasonable expectation of the truth-seeking nature of police investigation, meant that she reasonably expected that these words said within the context of previously stated mental confusion, and not directly connecting Mr X to the crime, would not be taken as 'evidence against' anyone, but that instead would be thoroughly investigated and tested for the purposes of corroboration.

The answer to your question is no. And these are the exact reasons why witness A should not be held morally or legally accountable for statements made against Mr Y either.
I don't know why you can't understand the notion of false memories, false confession syndrome, and until you publish (or reference) some peer-reviewed work explaining why these pieces of mainstream psychology are wrong, I guess they will stand as scientific fact.
The correct interpretation of witness A's statement could very well be that she / he was under a great deal of stress, getting less sleep than usual, probably having nightmares about a traumatic event, and was convinced (falsely) that his / her memories were not correct. In an effort to help police, the witness did a desperate mental inventory in this mentally clouded state, and found images, fragments of mental content (imaginings, dreams, memories) and tried to sort through them by theme (blood, violence, discomfort) instead of by category, and allowed herself to be (at least partially) convinced that these were memories, or if they were memories (like Mr X preparing raw fish) allowing them to be recontextualised within a new narrative.
 
Machiavelli says that Mignini was only ever at the cottage on November 2nd. But Profazio testifies that he and Mignini had returned to the cottage on April 23rd. This gives the appearance that Machiavelli has some motive for being here other than to convey the truth.




----

'Nobody asked the "superwitness" what he was smoking on that bench' -- FRANK SFARZO
 
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