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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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<snip>But I see that you seem to admit - you remark it again - that the apaprent function of the statement was to blame someone, to accuse someone.
Thank you for remarking again that this was the obvious content of her "bloody hands" memory.<snip.

What I had in mind when I wrote that was the so-called accusation of Rudy, not of Raffaele. It was intended to be a comment generalized to the whole process of the interrogation and arrest.

I do not agree that Amanda accused Raffaele by talking about the fish blood. Like Dan, I know that her intention was to help the police. Neither Amanda nor Raffaele came into the Questura thinking that the other one had anything to do with the crime. They were simply lied to by the police.
 
Just a moment: I said I can quote the document (and do the translation).
I also pointed out that you already have a copu of the prosecutions' speech by the way, so you already have plenty of material.
I asked if anyone wanted me to paste a quote. Nobody said 'yes', unless I missed it.

However, I also point out that something else happened: several people on this forum asserted that the burden of proof was on me (or on the prosecution) to demonstrate that Mignini did not put forward a Satanic ritual scenario. I found this assertion extremely remarkable. In fact all I wanted to see was if you would express that position. Obviously I won't attempt to demonstrate this to people who think the burden of proof is on the prosecution, on principle I would never play a game (a discussion) based on such 'rules'. It's against my principles.

No, you said you had the means to disprove this...

I note that we're now arguing if you said you had the means or if I said you had the burden of proof.

This method of argumentation is pure Machiavelli. Mach 2 doesn't argue like this.

What is precisely NOT happening is you exercising the means to prove us all silly. Why is that?

Bob and weave, bob and weave. A prize fighter can get well into the eighth round without landing a punch.... you are employing a good strategy....
 
Reporting pages of Knox's diary, the written note she wrote herself, is that a defamatory campaign? Or is it reporting true documents?

"Who me?" (Do we have an angel-with-a-halo emoticon here?)

Everyone who publishes something has a choice about whether or not to publish it. When there is no constructive reason for publishing work that will be harmful to the reputation of the subject but it is published anyway, then it is willful defamation.

Certainly it's defamatory if the material is re-written to sound incriminating, which is what happened with Amanda's diary.

What she wrote:

Raffaele and I have used this knife to cook, and it's impossible that Meredith's DNA is on the knife because she's never been to Raffaele's apartment before. So unless Raffaele decided to get up after I fell asleep, grabbed said knife, went over to my house, used it to kill Meredith, came home, cleaned the blood off, rubbed my fingerprints all over it, put it away, then tucked himself back into bed, and then pretended really well the next couple of days, well, I just highly doubt all of that.

What came out in the media:

That night I smoked a lot of marijuana and I fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house. I don’t remember anything. But I think it’s possible that Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped her and then killed. And when he got home, while I was sleeping, he put my fingerprints on the knife. But I don’t understand why Raffaele would do that.

That's just one example among many where somebody - whether it was Mignini or someone else - fed the media a stream of outright lies meant to defame Amanda.
 
Within days if not hours the press was running transcript like excerpts from the interrogations of Amanda and Raf. I wonder where those came from? Mach used to say that it was required that the ILE released this kind of information.

As for the pictures, what papers do one think would buy them? Perhaps Scientific American or Popular Mechanics would buy but more likely the Sun or the Mirror or the Daily Mail.

Lalli was put off the case for giving out info why wasn't the photo seller prosecuted or a least taken off the case?
 
Do you think The Independent was making it up? How about The Times and The Guardian? They all quoted and cited Italian media over and over.

Italians have the internet, too, I presume?

Candace cited many Italian articles in the process of writing her blog, as you know. Unfortunately at that time, there was often only a day to get the links before the Italian media removed them.

About this article from the Independent:

I won't say the Independent was 'making it up' throug all the article, instead it seems rather balanced, even if synthetic and inprecise on several things.
But all what the article says about the Italian press is:

The Italian press has been captivated by this sweet-looking, expensively-educated young woman who has been described as a luciferina with the face of an angel.

And photographs of Amanda Knox are frequently accompanied by images of Pinocchio -- with a very long nose.

About these two phrases, I can say: 1. it is just false that photographs of Amanda were ever accompained by images of Pinocchio: here the author is making it up. I think there is not even one instance of a picture of Knox published together with an image of Pinocchio. I don't think something like that was ever published.
It is true that Knox is regarded as a liar by most Italians. I don't think this is because of an unbalanced press, I think it's the effect of what Knox said.
2. The only source I know calling Knox "luciferina" was Carlo Pacelli (Lumumba's lawyer) in 2009. I never heard any newspaper calling Knox "luciferina" before that.
I recall only one case of a newspaper (La Nazione, what I call a semi-tabloid) which made a cover publishing a picture about "Amanda's icy blue eyes". That was in 2008 I think. (Amanda's look in courtroom was indeed not particularly empathic).

About Dempsey: indeed, I was the one who translated the articles (she was unable to understand Italian and she resorted on google translations), but it is not true that "the Italian media" removed them, the newspaper that used to kep the articles online just for one day it was only one, Il Giornale dell'Umbria. A local paper. And a very accurate and balanced newspaper actually.

Meo Ponte on La Repubblica was just 'favorable' to Knox more than a unbalanced reporting would suggest (he was slanted in her favor, imho). Fiorenza Sarzanini was an excellent journalist, she was objective.
 
No, you said you had the means to disprove this...
(...)

No?
You say no? You are saying Grinder and RandyN did not suggest that it is the prosecution (or me) who should prove that Mignini did not put forward a Satanic ritual scenario?

This is exactly what RandyN and Grinder said. Regardless of my means.

And again, do you want a translation of a quote from Mignini's speech?
(meanwhile, didn't you read carefully the part quoted by Katody? Did you notice what scenario that actually describes?).
 
Certainly it's defamatory if the material is re-written to sound incriminating, which is what happened with Amanda's diary.

What she wrote:

Raffaele and I have used this knife to cook, and it's impossible that Meredith's DNA is on the knife because she's never been to Raffaele's apartment before. So unless Raffaele decided to get up after I fell asleep, grabbed said knife, went over to my house, used it to kill Meredith, came home, cleaned the blood off, rubbed my fingerprints all over it, put it away, then tucked himself back into bed, and then pretended really well the next couple of days, well, I just highly doubt all of that.

What came out in the media:

That night I smoked a lot of marijuana and I fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house. I don’t remember anything. But I think it’s possible that Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped her and then killed. And when he got home, while I was sleeping, he put my fingerprints on the knife. But I don’t understand why Raffaele would do that.

That's just one example among many where somebody - whether it was Mignini or someone else - fed the media a stream of outright lies meant to defame Amanda.

I don't know what article you are quoting now (are you quoting? or paraphrasing?). But as I recall from that time, what I've read, in average it turned out to be pretty truthful reporting.

Frankly, I didn't see this amount of outright lies. I wonder what you mean. I don't even think that the example you reported above could be defined an "outright lie". If you reported it accurately, even the bit you mentioned would fall within the range of approximate reporting (bad translations, cheap local reporters La Nazione- style).
But what surprises me is that you assume that someone "feeds" such reporters telling them what to say, while journalists actually collect their stories to sell them and would do that all alone.
I am really surprised that you are unable to compare the absolutely balanced (in average) Italian tv-coverage, with the slanted, grotesque and wild coverage by the US networks such as CNN and others.
 
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Make some $$$$

It's you who actually pretend my post doesn't exist.
I am obviously not considering any argument which does not stem from the facts and from the most obvious common-sense inference; and one fact is that it was picture that a Britis newspaper picked from a photo agency, and belonged to a set of photos.
There was a big set of photos in the case file, not just one.
If you assert one particular picture was not one from that set of photos and was from some peculiar camera, then you should prove it first place. I don't know the camera used for that photo specifically, but I assert instead that it was specifically a picture taken from one set of pictures which was owned by a British photo agency. And (the original, in that set) has same features of the others from the same set.

The rest, as I said, is pure nonsense. Whoever took that specific picture (and you have no proof anyway to say who did it) makes no difference. It doesn't change the fact that the theory itself is nonsense. And i point out again, anyway: you have not even a proof Mignini was the person who took the photo! Your photo is not "evidence" of something. (btw, Mignini visited the scene on Nov. 2., but - if I recall correctly - phenophtaleine was used in the small bathroom on Dec. 18.)

And all this: anyway, it doesn't change the fact that the picture was never published in Italy (I think the first to publish it was Frank Sfarzo). Doesn't change the fact that Perugians anyway don't read the Daily Mirror (neither they know that the Daily Mirror exists). It doesn't change the fact that preliminary judges couldn't care less about what is published anyway, since judges and courts have the investigation files. Doesn't change the fact that the Daily Mirror chose their picture picking it from a set at a photo agency. It doesn't change the fact that what goes on a tabloid dosen't bring any kind of advantage to the prosecution. And it doesn't change the fact that the picture was leaked in the UK while Mignini lives in Perugia and doesn't even speak English.

Nothing changes these facts. Even, whoever took the picture, whoever gave it more or less confidentially, more or less officially to parties, to the Kerchers, to lawyers or others, or whoever then leaked it in the UK press market: nonthing of this changes nothing about the basic facts. The facts do not allow your theory of media manipulation to stand.


I am a professional surf photographer from Los Angeles.
Shooting photographs is how I put gas in my Dodge truck and I put food in my belly.
My online gallery is at LAsurfpix.com


Someone shot this photograph
and then sold it to an agency, hoping to make some $$$$.

It was sold to the Daily Mail obviously for $$$$.
Here's a link to the original article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html


Someone who was investigating the murder of Miss Meredith Kercher was tryin' to make some $$$$ off this brutal horror.

Who did this?
Was it this guy?



An investigator in the brutal, horrible murder of Miss Meredith Kercher?
Lame...
:jaw-dropp
 
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<snip>It is true that Knox is regarded as a liar by most Italians. I don't think this is because of an unbalanced press, I think it's the effect of what Knox said.<snip>

I don't need to ask whether the papers reported what the cops and Mignini said (and did) to Amanda.

I recall only one case of a newspaper (La Nazione, what I call a semi-tabloid) which made a cover publishing a picture about "Amanda's icy blue eyes". That was in 2008 I think. (Amanda's look in courtroom was indeed not particularly empathic).

Why should she look empathic?

Fiorenza Sarzanini was an excellent journalist, she was objective.

Well, except for publishing Amanda's stolen diary without her permission and making up stories about her sex life.
 
<snip>Frankly, I didn't see this amount of outright lies. I wonder what you mean. I don't even think that the example you reported above could be defined an "outright lie". If you reported it accurately, even the bit you mentioned would fall within the range of approximate reporting (bad translations, cheap local reporters La Nazione- style).
But what surprises me is that you assume that someone "feeds" such reporters telling them what to say, while journalists actually collect their stories to sell them and would do that all alone.
I am really surprised that you are unable to compare the absolutely balanced (in average) Italian tv-coverage, with the slanted, grotesque and wild coverage by the US networks such as CNN and others.

If the Italian media reported the facts of the case in a balanced way, then Italians would not think the defendants lied or knew something. They would have the facts we have.

It doesn't take outright lies to be slanted. When photographers take 150 pictures in court and then the newspapers make the choice to print the five that make a defendant look "not empathic," that is biased reporting. It's the same argument you used for trying to show that Amanda chose words that would accuse Raffaele.

One thing to bear in mind (this is a semiotics principle) is that any communication act has an intention; a purpose, has the function of conveying something. All things we say or signs we make to communicate tend to follow this rule. In other words, people always mean to say something.
 
No?
You say no? You are saying Grinder and RandyN did not suggest that it is the prosecution (or me) who should prove that Mignini did not put forward a Satanic ritual scenario?

This is exactly what RandyN and Grinder said. Regardless of my means.

And again, do you want a translation of a quote from Mignini's speech?
(meanwhile, didn't you read carefully the part quoted by Katody? Did you notice what scenario that actually describes?).

Once again, you sashay.... I was not talking about Randy, or Grinder. I did not say you had to prove anything about Mignini.... you said you had the court documents which prove that Mignini DID NOT argue the Satanic Rite theory.

Now you are bringing up Randy and Grinder. Sheesh.

What I have wondered about is if you have the means to prove me silly why don't you do it?

You continue to sashay!
 
I think random DNA transfer from a specific individual when that individuals DNA constitutes a minuscule proportion of the DNA lying around is rare. Perhaps rare enough that it is not a likely explanation as to how Sollecito's DNA came to be on the bra clasp.

This is a point that I have discussed before and it seems that others may have disagreed with it. I am not sure why. If samples were collected all over Kercher's room how often would a piece of Sollecito DNA be detectable? My guess is almost never. I continue to think that contamination from random DNA lying around in Kercher's room or the apartment that produced a false positive for Sollecito on the bra clasp is unlikely. There was vastly more of other people's DNA in Kercher's room and that apartment.

I was hoping to find something in English, but here's something from the RTIGF that may be helpful, go to page 272 of that PDF. This is the list of the unknown profiles found in the cottage, eight males and three females. Note that two of the males and two of the females are from downstairs/outside (bloody tissues that didn't have anything to do with the murder were found outside the cottage--the area had a drug element) or are Filomena and Laura. That still leaves six unidentified males and a female that investigators found in the girls' flat. Outside maybe Filomena's boyfriend and perhaps Laura's, no other male had spent significantly more time in the cottage than Raffaele, especially the week previous to the murder.

Those other males are likely postal police, Filomena's boyfriend and his buddy who were at the discovery, the remainder of the boys downstairs (not covered by the two found in their flat that I excluded above) as well as perhaps polizia scientifica and polizia di stato at the scene. At any rate there isn't six males who'd have significantly more DNA at the scene than Raffaele, who had one 'hit' in the initial polizia scientifica sweep. The assumption that Raffaele's DNA was 'miniscule' in proportion to all the others is mistaken, they picked up full profiles (just like Raffaele from the cigarette butt) of several men who would have little to no more reason to have DNA at the upstairs flat of the cottage than Raffaele.

Raffaele's DNA was there, just like theirs was, and it was picked up in the normal course of doing the investigation. That was centered on the murder room (where they found nothing of Raffaele or Amanda or these people) and places where they thought traces might be found in relation to the murder, but they didn't swab everywhere and Raffaele's DNA (and theirs) was also without doubt (not a phrase I often use!) in places they didn't swab or swab well. Especially trace DNA that they wouldn't see if they didn't go looking for it.

As for it getting in the murder room, that's the horror of coming back six weeks later having gone in and out of the room all those times without changing booties/gloves and letting it all blow around a little. By the time they were done with their work taking hundreds of samples where they were (generally) careful enough with the one they were doing but not so much with the rest of the area when they were done, that crime scene was definitely contamination prone. The idea that they could come back six weeks later and that site have any integrity left to it (i.e. that things--especially trace elements--were necessarily where they were when the murder was committed) is laughable. Anything of Raffaele's only had to be transferred a few feet from where he tried to knock down that door, and the bra clasp definitely traveled as well, and each of the people who handled it at the collection had (obviously) just been outside the murder room and by the way they acted on camera when they discovered it there's little reason to think they were especially careful beforehand when they weren't being seen and hadn't found something that might be of interest.

That doesn't mean I think the positive test for Sollecito's DNA was the result of his contact with the bra during the crime. I think there are two more likely explanations:
1. A gross contamination event occurred. That is a bit of Sollecito's DNA came to be on the sample as the result of contamination in the lab or during the collection process with Sollectio DNA.

That's what I'm talking about here, something from outside the murder room where Raffaele's DNA definitely was (and in greater quantities than just the cigarette butt) getting passed on to the bra clasp either during the forensic investigation where they went inside and outside that room with the bra clasp on the floor somewhere, or the bra clasp might have skittered to the doorway and then been kicked back in, (perhaps while removing the body or mattress) or during the six weeks after the polizia scientifica were done and that bra clasp was in a pile in a room with a broken lock in a cottage with a widow out, and then finally during the collection was handled freely by foresnic technicians clowns in bunny suits who'd just been outside that room themselves.

They collected a number of things the second trip, they only had to make one 'mistake' on one item, and they may have made duplicate ones with the bra clasp, meaning those other males on that electropherogram might well match one of the other unknown males from outside the room as well, it would take the EDFs to be able to properly analyze that. Also not all the electropherograms from the samples that were taken were ever released, there's data missing there as well. Keep in mind this is LT DNA, going below the RFU threshold only on select items, and not allowing anyone to look at the other samples the same way. There are no doubt other people's profiles that could be found in other items if anyone else was allowed to zoom in and analyze those peaks, Stefanoni wants to only show you what helps her case, and suppress that which doesn't--like with negative blood tests...

2. The DNA test results were flawed because of misinterpretation of the test results.

I think that's unlikely but that gets complicated, they ran a y-haplotype and found Raffaele's. Incidentally, while my guess is that Raffaele's contribution to the sample was significantly larger than the others (mostly based on the results of the y-haplotype test) there's nowhere you can draw a line (on the autosomal) and include Raffaele and exclude all the others, like you can (easily) with Meredith and Raffaele's peaks. You could not 'call' those alleles and come up with a match for Raffaele, you'd have to have Raffaele's profile and then go looking for it, which is one of the dangers with analyzing mixed LT samples to begin with. With all those alleles I could take your profile and mine and it's (roughly) even odds I could 'find' one of ours there, but the other reason to be wary of such 'evidence' is: if it has all those alleles it must have really gotten around somehow!

I also think that other innocent explanations exist for Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp including such things as the fact that Kercher's clothes would have had the opportunity to come into contact with Sollecito's DNA since they were washed in the same house that Knox's clothes were and she had had significant contact with Sollecito.

These actually amount to the same thing as the above if you think on it, somehow material transferring from something Raffaele touched to the bra clasp.
 
But it's plain false. The facts are, Mignini just prosecuted three people. The prosecution did not engieneer any media campaign: what they had to say, they said it in court.
And - this is almost an irony - it seems like people here don't even know what Mignini actually said in court. I just don't recall a single comment Mignini ever made against Knox outside the courtroom.

snip

Dont recall or dont wish to recall? Review the 1st 48 Hours program ...the one with Giobbi making his stupid claims of psychological evaluation rather than evidence being necessary to solve this crime. Near the end of the show Mignini and Comodi both also give interviews. Mignini lies about how bad he feels for Lumumba and at how terrible it was for Knox to blame Diya. And yet what we now understand is that the police lied about Lumumbas involvement, then they failed to investigate if he was actually involved at all. In fact they failed to secure his home or to collect incriminating evidence. Why is that btw?

And finally the truth to prove Mignini was lying. How does one feel "bad" but then do nothing or maybe even be the cause of keeping Lumumbas bar closed? The mans only way to earn money to feed his family. How do Mignini and the police make excuse for this abuse against a supposedly innocent person (at that point he was released from prison and clear of charges)

DO you understand why this makes Mignini a insincere liar? No I bet you dont. Rest assured his words and his evil will come back to haunt him. He lied when he claimed to feel sorry for Lumumba. He was playing to the media in order to make Knox look bad. In fact Comodi had the same exact story...almost as if they discussed it beforehand. Poor poor Lumumba to the press but then keep his bar closed to starve him into submission in reality. This is the worst kind of lying snake.
 
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Someone shot this photograph
and then sold it to an agency, hoping to make some $$$$.

It was sold to the Daily Mail obviously for $$$$.
Here's a link to the original article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-scene-reveal-apartment-bloodbath-horror.html


Someone who was investigating the murder of Miss Meredith Kercher was tryin' to make some $$$$ off this brutal horror.

Who did this?
Was it this guy?



An investigator in the brutal, horrible murder of Miss Meredith Kercher?
Lame...
:jaw-dropp

I do believe LJ and/or Davefoc found that the copyright was owned by a short fat perp named Profazio, who is (or was) one of the high muck-a-mucks in the Perugian polizia di stato. He's also the first one to utter anything about there being a 'cartwheel' which had completely escaped the notice of everyone despite all the trashy tales told about Amanda after the murder. That is, until the day Zugarini, Ficarra and Napolenoni testified on the interrogation in spring of '09. All of a sudden, starting with Profazio at the press conference before they testified, everyone heard the sordid details of the infamous cartwheel--that never happened. She was doing yoga and then did the splits, somehow this tale grew in the telling and all of the officers above started talking about a cartwheel during their testimony.

So, while there is definitely another short fat perp it might have been, we know Profazio is the sort who likes using the press in a misleading fashion, that 'bloody bathroom' pic convinced many online Amanda must have showered in that bathroom without being initially alarmed, thus making her sound like she was lying or crazy, when it actually looked like this.
 
Originally Posted by davefoc
I think random DNA transfer from a specific individual when that individuals DNA constitutes a minuscule proportion of the DNA lying around is rare. Perhaps rare enough that it is not a likely explanation as to how Sollecito's DNA came to be on the bra clasp.

This is a point that I have discussed before and it seems that others may have disagreed with it. I am not sure why. If samples were collected all over Kercher's room how often would a piece of Sollecito DNA be detectable? My guess is almost never. I continue to think that contamination from random DNA lying around in Kercher's room or the apartment that produced a false positive for Sollecito on the bra clasp is unlikely. There was vastly more of other people's DNA in Kercher's room and that apartment.

I agree 100 % Dave. This bra clasp metal hook sample was manufactured. The evidence to indicate this begins to appear when one considers the timing of the event of this new discovery.

First...why does Rome CSI decide to return to the cottage on 18 Dec 2007? What could possibly motivate this? Certainly not the fact that the sneaker print used against RS at the prelim had just disappeared as the only thing linking him to the crime according to Mignini anyway. And since a member of RS family counted the rings and discovered that one had 11 and another had 7 and the one that matched the murder room prints matched Guedes and not RS. Funny that huh?

Who can authorize a return to the cottage for further investigation? Im guessing but I would think that only the leader (Mignini) of the entire investigation could do that. And why would he do that? Dont fall for the "oh we noticed that the bra clasp was missing" bull crap story. The slobs left the bloody outer jacket the victim was wearing while attacked tossed aside in the dirty cloths hamper....where only the police could have put it. Oh and they also forgot to collect the bloody shoes, socks, the purse, the tote bag...and who knows what else. But I have heard over the years...the return was for the bra clasp. Huh. I find that oddly insincere...almost a bald faced lie. OK an actual bald faced lie.

They want someone to prove contamination. Well thats easy. Just look at the collection video. There we can watch no fewer two incompetents (one with his mask hung down below his nose) pass the clasp back and forth BY THE TINY METAL HOOK while wearing visibly filthy gloves and then they place it back on the floor as if that allows a true crime scene photo to be captured??? WTH?

A good defense team would have asked about the need for this return. It is one key to solving why and how the metal hook became contaminated with RS supposed DNA...remember this is not conclusive...it is also from a LTN sample IIRC. And not a profile but maybe a y type or maybe not according to C and V. One expert told the judge that she could even find the judge himself on this clasp if she wanted to. I happen to believe her because she is a real doctor (more than a doctor ...a pathologist) and the other gal claims to have a bachelors...but is also a hell of a mop wrapper. So that must count for something.

OK look I have strayed from your point. I feel the finding of RS DNA on the metal hook to be totally bogus. One more reason is that there is no footprint of where RS might have stood when this deposit was made as per the prosecutor. For that matter there is no negative image in blood where the bloody bath mat print may have originated from. OTOH Guede told us he used the bathroom to clean up and that his pant leg was bloody. Which explains how he made this bathmat print while cleaning up. Just tiny bits of the baseless claims and zero facts against the wrongly accused.

Unlikely DNA on BRA clasp? Yep I bet the other 4 guys would say the same thing and yet they are on there. Which then makes it fit the definition of contaminated.

NO SOUP FOR YOU! NEXT!
 
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They want someone to prove contamination. Well thats easy. Just look at the collection video. There we can watch no fewer two incompetents (one with his mask hung down below his nose) pass the clasp back and forth BY THE TINY METAL HOOK while wearing visible filthy gloves and then they place it back on the floor as if that allows a true crime scene photo to be captured??? WTH?

A good defense team would have asked about the need for this return.

At cross examination, Stefanoni was shown the video and shown the little segment where she appears to touch the hooks with her obviously dirty gloved finger, Unfortunately the angle at which it is videoed from prohibits a clear shot of her actually touching it.

So Stefanoni is asked, under oath, if she remembers touching the hook while handling the clasp. She specifically says she can neither conform nor deny toughing it.

At any other trial, be it in Italy or anywhere, this alone would rule out the clasp as evidence - when the chief investigator of the Scientific police can neither confirm nor deny contaminating a sample.

Stefanoni then testifies that that she had just moments previously changed gloves - which when you think of it is one of those Machiavelli-type of sashays, which isn't exactly what is being asked. Regardless of whether or not she changed gloves - if she had, she obviously changed into a dirty glove... either that or it only took seconds for her to hopelessly contaminate THAT glove, because on the video her own department made, her glove is obviously filthy.

The real crime is that this line of questioning to Stefanoni was heard by Massei and the other judges, lay and otherwise, and they still convicted based partly on that bra-clasp.

This is only one of dozens of such examples - when heard at trial were exculpatory, but by which Massei turned it 180 degrees and used it to convict.

BTW - speaking of Machiavelli, Andrea Vogt has just tweeted that she is tired of hearing all the same things being said by both sides for the last 6 years and is heading to Sicily to cover another case. Apparently she regards evidence at trial as being tedious.
 
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At cross examination, Stefanoni was shown the video and shown the little segment where she appears to touch the hooks with her obviously dirty gloved finger, Unfortunately the angle at which it is videoed from prohibits a clear shot of her actually touching it.

So Stefanoni is asked, under oath, if she remembers touching the hook while handling the clasp. She specifically says she can neither conform nor deny toughing it.

At any other trial, be it in Italy or anywhere, this alone would rule out the clasp as evidence - when the chief investigator of the Scientific police can neither confirm nor deny contaminating a sample.

Stefanoni then testifies that that she had just moments previously changed gloves - which when you think of it is one of those Machiavelli-type of sashays, which isn't exactly what is being asked. Regardless of whether or not she changed gloves - if she had, she obviously changed into a dirty glove... either that or it only took seconds for her to hopelessly contaminate THAT glove, because on the video her own department made, her glove is obviously filthy.

The real crime is that this line of questioning to Stefanoni was heard by Massei and the other judges, lay and otherwise, and they still convicted based partly on that bra-clasp.

This is only one of dozens of such examples - when heard at trial were exculpatory, but by which Massei turned it 180 degrees and used it to convict.

BTW - speaking of Machiavelli, Andrea Vogt has just tweeted that she is tired of hearing all the same things being said by both sides for the last 6 years and is heading to Sicily to cover another case. Apparently she regards evidence at trial as being tedious.


Well changing into a dirty glove is not lying right? Especially in Italy. I think this actually gains you cred there for using such a clever tactic. I changed gloves therefore it doesn't matter that I shamelessly rubbed and fondled that tiny metal hook. Perhaps I saw a different video. I see people handling the clasp by the hook itself...not touching as if to point but holding the clasp up BY THE HOOK.

See that is the beauty of the Italian way...do 100 stupid illogical things and you get to call a mulligan and then someone starts narrating and the Twilight Zone music starts playing and suddenly the 100 illogical stupid crazy assertions instantly become ROCK SOLID evidence. And the court sustains that. :confused:
 
Machiavelli,

  1. Can you identify the guy in the mask taking pictures in the image that has been posted several times lately?
  2. Would you identify him if you could?
  3. Do you know what happened to his pictures?
  4. Were any or all of them turned over to the defense in the discovery process?
  5. Do you think the pictures the guy was taking were the ones sold to the British tabloids?
  6. Could you tell us about the police investigation to determine what the source of the photographs sold to the British tabloids was?
  7. Has Mignini ever publically denied that he took the pictures or made a statement about what happened to the pictures taken by the big fat guy at the crime scene investigation?

For the record, while I appreciate the tentative credit Kaosium gave me for finding out that the copyright was owned by Profazio, I don't think I deserved the credit I did look into this issue when it was discussed a year or so ago and all I could find was that the copyright was owned by a company that I don't recall the name of right now. Finding out that Profazio held the copyright sounds like another piece of nice research by LJ.

It looked like such an obvious breech of Italian law that photographs were taken by presumably a state employee at a crime scene and sold to the media that I had assumed there would have been an investigation into it unless the perpetrator was a member of a protected class of law enforcement. There didn't seem to be an investigation so my guess was that the photographer and seller of the copyright was Mignini. However, it is just as believable that the perpetrator was a highly placed employee of the Perugian Police department assuming he was a big fat guy.
 
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