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Nordic countries may finally ban circumcision.

Beyond the fact that you cite no sources, it appears that many of the claims you make are specifically contradicted by the follow on report.
Again, see the previous threads on this board regarding the study. This isn't really the thread to hash it out again.

But regardless of how valid the study may be; it's completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Assuming the study is valid, it's would be a good argument in favour of adult circumcision. It is most assuredly not an argument in favour of infant circumcision. There are no documented health benefits to infant circumcision; certainly none that remotely justify the risks involved.
 
Yes. The same is true of feet (eta: mutatis mutandis), and lots of other places. I'm assuming the implication of it is that we all wash, and it needs no special care.

I suppose that would make more sense, but gumboot's post didn't say or even imply anything about "special care." He straight-up said that the idea that under-foreskin area needs cleaning is an untruth probably invented by circumcision advocates. I find this doubtful. I also note that an intact penis may indeed require "special care" in cleansing due to the additional surface area to be rinsed, the fact that the prepuce may need to be manually retracted in order to do so. Further, since there is a greater tendency for matter to build up under a foreskin, intact penises require more frequent rinsings than do circumcised ones.

You may find all this to be no particular trouble, and that is well. There are many people in this world who, for whatever reason, neglect to devote as much care to pubic hygiene as their physicians and partners might prefer. I dare say that going around declaring that foreskins and glanses don't need to be cleaned will probably end up doing those doctors and lovers no favor.
 
Again, see the previous threads on this board regarding the study. This isn't really the thread to hash it out again.

I don't see why the fact that something may have been discussed previously means that it should not ever be brought up again. Were that so, we might delete most of the posts on the entire board, as the majority contain sentiments that an earlier poster has also expressed.

Further, unless those threads you speak of were from later than September 2013, then the investigation we are speaking of was not yet published, so it hardly makes sense to term a discussion about it to be a re-hash.

But regardless of how valid the study may be; it's completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Assuming the study is valid, it's would be a good argument in favour of adult circumcision. It is most assuredly not an argument in favour of infant circumcision. There are no documented health benefits to infant circumcision; certainly none that remotely justify the risks involved.

In point of fact, infant circumcision has a far lower complication rate than adult circumcision, in part due to the smaller excision area. If one is to be circumcised, it is far preferable to have it done as an infant.
 
Again, see the previous threads on this board regarding the study. This isn't really the thread to hash it out again.

But regardless of how valid the study may be; it's completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Assuming the study is valid, it's would be a good argument in favour of adult circumcision. It is most assuredly not an argument in favour of infant circumcision. There are no documented health benefits to infant circumcision; certainly none that remotely justify the risks involved.

That is odd because the study said the exact opposite.
 
If one is to be circumcised, it is far preferable to have it done as an infant.

Unless one values having a choice about their body parts...

From the OP link (and Google Translated):

Parents have the right and duty to raise their children the way they think is best for the child. It's in the CRC.

In addition, says one of the most important articles of the Convention that children can voice their opinion on anything that comes to your child.

Parents can therefore not decide everything. We at The Ombudsman therefore believe it is best for the child that children themselves should be allowed to decide whether they want to be circumcised.

I think this conversation is confusing because there are different and overlapping arguments being raised about:

1) Medical benefits or risks
2) Ethics or legal norms about child rights or parental rights
3) Religious freedom for the parent or for the child

Now, so far I have been trying to appease certain members who are from a particular group that thinks that its members are superior to everyone else and that it has special knowledge on this and all other matters. Of course, I am talking about US forumites :p . But it is weird to be citing the AAP so often, so let's go outside:

Repeatedly cited the opinion of the AAP (DOI: 10.1542/peds.2012-1989 Pediatrics ; originally published online August 27, 2012 ) contradicts previous opinions, the same organization , without being able to research new professions. This opinion of the AAP is now not considered tenable by almost all other pediatric societies and associations in the world as scientific. A corresponding counter opinion is written and will also be published in the prestigious journal Pediatrics in early 2013. I have attached a summary of the authors of the international joint statement and an abstract at the end of my remarks . These statements are supported by extensive literature .
*
The American Bar Association Children's Rights ( attorneys for the right of the child -
www.arclaw.org ) has also criticized the AAP. opinion in a letter to the journal Pediatrics . They contain errors and inconsistencies and contrary both to their own opinions of the AAP Bioethics , as well as against several civil and criminal legislation in the United States.
*
Even the WHO recommendation for prophylactic circumcision is valid only for sexually mature sexually active men in countries with low standards of hygiene and can not be used as justification for prophylactic circumcision of incapacitated underage boys . The use of condoms for HIV prevention , prophylaxis of Cancerosen ( Note on HPV vaccination prophylaxis ) and for the prevention of genital infections in men and women is the most effective protection here .

World sees no medical society , not even the AAP , as a significant advantage of the general circumcision of young boys that they generally recommends this .

Forgive the Google Translation of the German original.

During the consultation process, a number of high-profile groups urged the government to ban the practice. These included the Norwegian Medical Association, the Norwegian Nurses Organisation, the Norwegian Ombudsman for Children, and the faculty of medicine at the University of Oslo.

Linky.

"To circumcise a child without medical reasons and without the child's consent, runs contrary... to the child's human rights and the fundamental principles of medical ethics," they write in a debate article in the Dagens Nyheter daily on Saturday.

The ombudsman Fredrik Malmberg, together with representatives from the Swedish Society of Medicine (SLS), the Swedish Society of Health Professionals (Vårdförbundet), the Swedish Paediatric Society (BLF) and the Swedish Association of Pediatric Surgeons (SLF), argues that Swedish law requires that the child's will be taken into account wherever possible.

Circumcision is a procedure which is typically carried out at a very young age and it is this issue of consent which is paramount, they argue.

"We consider circumcision of boys without the child's consent to be in contravention of article 12 of UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) which gives children the right to have an opinion in matters which concern them."

They furthermore argue for a change in Swedish legislation in order to meet the human rights of the child and medical ethics.

Linky.

However, if the procedures are permitted, Finland will be giving its approval to medically unnecessary surgery that interferes with the integrity of the body. The Finnish Medical Association takes the stand that child circumcisions are in conflict with medical ethics.

Linky.
 
Now, so far I have been trying to appease certain members who are from a particular group that thinks that its members are superior to everyone else and that it has special knowledge on this and all other matters.

The thing is. America is one of the few countries represented in this discussion where it is common to have had lots of intimate contact with both intact and circumcised members in pretty even ratios. In that respect, I'd say we (barring exclusively straight men and lesbian women, I guess) do have access to a type of knowledge about this issue that most Europeans don't get a chance to cultivate.
 
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The thing is. America is one of the few countries represented in this discussion where it is common to have had lots of intimate contact with both intact and circumcised members in pretty even ratios. In that respect, I'd say we (barring exclusively straight men and lesbian women, I guess) do have access to a type of knowledge about this issue that most Europeans don't get a chance to cultivate.
What type of knowledge? That people who are cut don't normally suffer terribly from it? I know that despite never, in real life, having seen a circumcised penis, but I don't think anyone argued otherwise. I'm not sure what other information you could glean from having met a few people who were circumcised, and a few who weren't.
 
Fair enough, you're right that the external clitoris is more closely analogous to the glans penis than it is to the penis entire. However...
It's important to remember that such comparisons of FGM with MGM depend on the criteria.

For example, by the objective criteria of neurological damage the amputation of the male foreskin is worse than amputating the external part of the clitoris because the foreskin has more nerve endings which are permanently lost with the amputation.

On the other hand by the criteria of lost sensitivity the amputation of the external part of the clitoris comes as worse because the density of the nerve endings there is higher.

Further by the criteria of loss of sexual function in both cases some function is lost, and it gets more difficult to say which loss is worse in comparison without defining further criteria. By the subjective criteria of lost sexual pleasure comparisons becomes even more fuzzy because after all the most important human sexual organ is the brain and there's large variation in subjective experiences. And it's not a competition anyway.

There's also spectrums:
Not all MGM are the same and practises, severity and results do vary.

Also FGM entails a wide spectrum of practices varying from symbolic circumcisions without permanent injury to amputation of healthy tissue and even infibulation. Yet they're all female genital mutilation as per WHO.

For example, would you say that scraping or pinching female genital tissue without causing permanent injury is worse than the partial or total amputation of the male foreskin?

I believe not, as that would just not make any sense. Yet, when someone says 'FGM is much worse than MGM, and you cannot compare them' he is effectively saying that, because FGM does entail such practises.

Also justifications for both FGM and MGM do vary around the world but not without similarities.

All that complicates and confuses the discussion when comparing FGM with MGM. Yet that does not mean they're not comparable.

...the most severe forms of female circumcision rather often do result in a near-total loss of pleasurable sexual sensation, despite the internal structures that may be left intact.
Remember that your original claim was based on prevalence with the important criteria "the majority". What you're discussing now is not the majority but "the most severe forms" i.e. not typical forms and also less prevalent.

Consider that even many uncircumcised women experience difficulty achieving sexual arousal and multiply that by painful vulval and vaginal scarring and female-circumcision-practicing cultures' lifelong inculcations excluding pleasurable sexuality from descriptions of proper femininity (inculcations which have no real functional male equivalents in any culture I'm aware of) and you'll invariably end up with something that by the thinking of any Western culture would constitute catastrophic sexual dysfunction.
I wish you'd be more specific in your terminology, your data, your objective criteria, your reasoning and your claims. In some parts of the world (for example in Sudan) some of the women are subjected to some of the most drastic and horrific forms of FGM. I believe it is these practises you're referring to, but cannot be sure as you are far from clear about it. But if so they're indeed horrible and worst types of FGM, and also drastically affect sexual pleasure.

I don't know which cultures you are referring to, but just for interest here's an example of "female-circumcision-practicing culture" which apparently values female sexual pleasure: Cleric: Don’t cut too much female genital to avoid sexuality loss

Not in all countries or cultures the justification for FGM is suppression of female sexuality, not even in all Islamic cultures. Not that I support any form of cutting infants without a medical justification.
 
In point of fact, infant circumcision has a far lower complication rate than adult circumcision, in part due to the smaller excision area. If one is to be circumcised, it is far preferable to have it done as an infant.

Barring cultural factors of course.
 
But regardless of how valid the study may be; it's completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread. Assuming the study is valid, it's would be a good argument in favour of adult circumcision. It is most assuredly not an argument in favour of infant circumcision. There are no documented health benefits to infant circumcision; certainly none that remotely justify the risks involved.

In point of fact, infant circumcision has a far lower complication rate than adult circumcision, in part due to the smaller excision area. If one is to be circumcised, it is far preferable to have it done as an infant.

I don't see how your second statement follows from the first. If we only consider the list of complications provided by the AAP, we are talking about
"bleeding, infection, or an imperfect amount of tissue removed.".

Even if they occurred more frequently in adults I would suggest that bleeding and infection are a more serious concern in an infant and probably more quickly detected and easier to treat in an adult. I would be surprised if "imperfect amount of tissue removed" was more common in adults since you essentially have the full size member to work with and the adult could even specify how much.

Of the late complications that are listed, "adhesions, skin bridges, and meatal stenosis.". I would expect to see fewer of the first two since they involve not paying close attention to the healing process and meatal stenosis is probably evenly split but that would take a lot of time to show up.

Now of the most serious complications, death or loss of penis, I've never heard of an adult who experienced one of these complications in a typical modern surgical setting but I have heard of them occasionally occurring with infants. So again I am not sure how A leads to B in your statement.
 
Of the late complications that are listed, "adhesions, skin bridges, and meatal stenosis.". I would expect to see fewer of the
Now of the most serious complications, death or loss of penis, I've never heard of an adult who experienced one of these complications in a typical modern surgical setting but I have heard of them occasionally occurring with infants. So again I am not sure how A leads to B in your statement.

You've probably never heard of severe complications happening in an adult because adult circumcisions make up only a small percentage of the total performed. Here's a recent review with some stats.

RESULTS: Sixteen prospective studies evaluated complications following neonatal and infant circumcision. Most studies reported no severe adverse events (SAE), but two studies reported SAE frequency of 2%. The median frequency of any complication was 1.5% (range 0-16%). Child circumcision by medical providers tended to be associated with more complications (median frequency 6%; range 2-14%) than for neonates and infants. Traditional circumcision as a rite of passage is associated with substantially greater risks, more severe complications than medical circumcision or traditional circumcision among neonates.

A quick survey of some other material indicates that neonatal circumcision may result in higher complication rates than circumcisions done at 5 months, but both are associated with lower rates than those done later in childhood.

Admittedly, the numbers are not the easiest to draw firm conclusions from, since minor complications often don't become evident until long after the circumcision is peformed. Also, it is probable that circumcisions those done later in life are more likely to have been precipitated by uro-genital malfunctions, so that probably ups their chances of experiencing difficulties afterward as well.
 
You've probably never heard of severe complications happening in an adult because adult circumcisions make up only a small percentage of the total performed. Here's a recent review with some stats.

Maybe but I doubt it. I'd say it more likely to be that while complications that are characterized as "minor" may occur more frequently in an adult circumcision, such as excess bleeding, the major complications that could lead to death, such as exsanguination, are more likely in an infant or toddler if for no other reason then they can't loose nearly as much blood before it becomes critical.

And the cause of loss of part or all of the glands, another potential major complication, is typically related to accidents with the tools. Adult circumcisions are often freehand, which might be why minor bleeding is more common, but I can't see it leading to glands amputation especially since these are also typically done by urologists. Infant circumcisions, on the other hand, are done with tools which could lead to damage even when used properly. The GOMCO clamps can slip when tightening the nuts or not complete shield the glands, the plastibell rings can slip without notice leading to necrosis of the glands, and the glands can get pulled up into the ever popular Mogen clamp, possibly the most dangerous of all the tools. Fortunately one of the companies that made them has been sued into oblivion. Each of those events can happen without the operator know it.

Are there fewer "minor" complications in an infant circumcision? Probably. And it's likely because of the tools that are used and how they can control the bleeding. But major complications? I doubt it. So I am not sure how one squares taking ones choice away because the risk of "minor" complications is a bit higher in the unlikely event they choose to have a circumcision as an adult.
 
It stands to reason that operating on a much larger adult organ is far easier, less fiddly, and far less likely to end up "not quite right" than when you have to deal with tiny infant bits.

I think the advocates push the "fewer complications" line because the minor complications in infancy aren't obvious immediately, and because the infant doesn't consciously remember the pain.

Rolfe.
 
The thing is. America is one of the few countries represented in this discussion where it is common to have had lots of intimate contact with both intact and circumcised members in pretty even ratios. In that respect, I'd say we (barring exclusively straight men and lesbian women, I guess) do have access to a type of knowledge about this issue that most Europeans don't get a chance to cultivate.
Let's hear some of that knowledge then. Common claims the proponents for infant genital mutilation present are its supposed health benefits related to penis cancer, HIV, and UTI. As you claim better access to relevant knowledge could you please share.

I heavily doubt there's any infants suffering from penis cancer but perhaps the adult rate is instructive:
What in the fist place is the prevalence of penis cancer in the US?

I heavily doubt any infants get HIV through their risky sexual habits but perhaps the adult rate is instructive:
What is the prevalence of HIV among males in the US?

Some infants do get UTI and it's generally one of the most common bacterial infections among infants.
So, what is the prevalence of UTI among infants (boys, girls <1yr.) in the US that allegedly warrants such a drastic procedure?
 
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It stands to reason that operating on a much larger adult organ is far easier, less fiddly, and far less likely to end up "not quite right" than when you have to deal with tiny infant bits.

I think the advocates push the "fewer complications" line because the minor complications in infancy aren't obvious immediately, and because the infant doesn't consciously remember the pain.

Rolfe.

I agree with both of these points. In addition to not being obvious immediately, I would suspect that an adult is more likely to report certain complications where as complications of infant circumcision (such as skin bridges, edema of the glans, and loss of sensitivity) may go under reported. Someone could have a skin bridge, or other type of improper healing, and not even recognize it as a result of circumcision if they grew up with it.
 
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I suppose that would make more sense, but gumboot's post didn't say or even imply anything about "special care." He straight-up said that the idea that under-foreskin area needs cleaning is an untruth probably invented by circumcision advocates. I find this doubtful. I also note that an intact penis may indeed require "special care" in cleansing due to the additional surface area to be rinsed, the fact that the prepuce may need to be manually retracted in order to do so. Further, since there is a greater tendency for matter to build up under a foreskin, intact penises require more frequent rinsings than do circumcised ones.
I hope people would keep in mind the topic of the thread which concerns infants and childs. In that context gumboot is correct - "the under-foreskin area" of infants and childs does not need cleaning or special hygienic attention.

The idea that the inside of the foreskin and the glans of the penis needs "cleaning" is a myth, presumably invented to justify circumcision.
Indeed it is a myth invented by someone and as it has been most often heard from the proponents of infant genital mutilation it is reasonable to assume that it is the proponents that have invented it as an ill-informed justification.

  • In infancy and childhood the inside of the foreskin is attached to the glans penis. Do not try to detach it!
  • You even cannot fully retract it without causing injury to the foreskin and glans penis. That would be akin to freaking flaying. Both the foreskin and glans penis are among the most sensitive parts of male genital anatomy, and boys playing with their foreskins know not to do it due to excruciating pain it would cause.
  • In childhood you do not need to clean any "under-foreskin area". You even cannot reveal it without causing injuries. One can move the foreskin back to the point of revealing only the end of the urethra. Pain will instruct not to move it any further.
  • For a child the foreskin is a very interesting organ to play with, a subject of curiosity and a child can do pretty amazing stuff with it like stretching. There's no medical justification for a parent banning the child playing with it: there's no worries about injury as pain will instruct the child not to go too far in his tests.
  • Penis and foreskin both grow and change when person grows.
  • As a child and his genitals grow the foreskin will gradually get detached from the glans penis. The time when this happens varies a lot individually just as other signs of puberty do. For some it happens earlier, for some later.
  • Only after that it is possible to retract the foreskin behind the glans, and only then it is advisable to start paying attention also to the hygiene beneath the foreskin when necessary.
That's pretty basic and straightforward stuff which even the kids learn in the school if their parents haven't already informed them.
 
I hope people would keep in mind the topic of the thread which concerns infants and childs. In that context gumboot is correct - "the under-foreskin area" of infants and childs does not need cleaning or special hygienic attention.

Indeed it is a myth invented by someone and as it has been most often heard from the proponents of infant genital mutilation it is reasonable to assume that it is the proponents that have invented it as an ill-informed justification.

  • In infancy and childhood the inside of the foreskin is attached to the glans penis. Do not try to detach it!
  • You even cannot fully retract it without causing injury to the foreskin and glans penis. That would be akin to freaking flaying. Both the foreskin and glans penis are among the most sensitive parts of male genital anatomy, and boys playing with their foreskins know not to do it due to excruciating pain it would cause.
  • In childhood you do not need to clean any "under-foreskin area". You even cannot reveal it without causing injuries. One can move the foreskin back to the point of revealing only the end of the urethra. Pain will instruct not to move it any further.
  • For a child the foreskin is a very interesting organ to play with, a subject of curiosity and a child can do pretty amazing stuff with it like stretching. There's no medical justification for a parent banning the child playing with it: there's no worries about injury as pain will instruct the child not to go too far in his tests.
  • Penis and foreskin both grow and change when person grows.
  • As a child and his genitals grow the foreskin will gradually get detached from the glans penis. The time when this happens varies a lot individually just as other signs of puberty do. For some it happens earlier, for some later.
  • Only after that it is possible to retract the foreskin behind the glans, and only then it is advisable to start paying attention also to the hygiene beneath the foreskin when necessary.
That's pretty basic and straightforward stuff which even the kids learn in the school if their parents haven't already informed them.

Yep pretty basic but it's mostly lost information in the States.
 
I hope people would keep in mind the topic of the thread which concerns infants and childs. In that context gumboot is correct - "the under-foreskin area" of infants and childs does not need cleaning or special hygienic attention.

Except that gumboot said nothing specifically referring to children's penises not needing cleaning. His post quite clearly indicates that he believes that he believes the idea that any penis requires routine washing is some sort of pro-circumcision propaganda item.

This is most assuredly not the case.
 
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On a similar note, I have to laugh when people say that kids will become confused or lose self esteem or something if they don't "match Dad".
 

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