Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

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Then what is your non-racism explanation for why that is happening? So far, you have been unable to posit a relevant class distinction that is itself uncorrelated to race.
Why does there have to be no correlation with race? If people are prejudiced, say, on the basis of class, or wealth, or what ever (but for the sake of argument not race)... and there happens to be some degree of correlation with race, like here where black parents seem to have been embedding the information in their childrens names - you say that is racism? Any prejudice that corrolates with race is racism? Say I choose something silly like I hold some kind of generalized view, positive, negative, real, imagined whatever... about men who are good dancers and men being good dancers correlates with race, are you saying that me holding a view about men who are good dancers is racist of me? Is it only racist if I hold a negative opinion of men who are good dancers and men being good at dancing are more likely to be black?
 
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colander. This is getting petty. I'll step back if you will. Let's start again with my previous post - 9021. Are you honestly saying that anything that correlates to any degree with race is necessarily racist? If I don't like people with HIV (I've got a phobia about retroviruses ever since I saw Bladerunner) and, hypothetically (I honestly don't know) a higher proportion of the black community than the white community have HIV, then I'm being racist, or my phobia is racist, or what?
 
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If we limit ourselves to people promoting the A+ brand, then the answer is that the brand didn't catch on for various reasons, not least of which are the screaming caps lock of rage on the forums.

If we consider A+ more broadly as the acceptance of ideas from the online social justice memesphere into the freethought community, then I would say that "Atheism Plus" has been doing fairly well. Skepticon cut off CFI sponsorship, for example, because CFI was considered insufficiently pure. At least a half dozen prominent secular leaders have been accused of sexism or sexual assault. At this point, you'd be hard pressed to name a prominent national American freethought organization that hasn't been accused of oppression by someone writing at FtB or Patheos. The promotion of social justice callout culture proceeds apace, regardless of the A+ branding.

Sure, but what effect has that had? Being called out on an Internet forum happens to a lot of groups and people, but it doesn't always mean much. Has CFI, for instance, suffered in some noticeable way due to the Skepticon boycot and other criticism? Have they lost members, significant funds, conference venues? Have their ability to engage in activism and outreach been impacted? Or is it just a bunch of people yelling on forums and blogs and not affecting anything? Based on what I've seen, it's by and large the latter.

As for A+'s decline and the reasons thereof, in addition to being ineffective in terms of outreach due to the razor-lined hugbox nature of the forum ("we will all love each other and agree with each other! And if you don't we will INCINERATE you!") is that many of the prominent A+ people have themselves been castigated by the feminist groups they are trying to appeal to, so they're getting hammered on both sides. This was presaged early on when Natalie Reed, in her blogpost about leaving FTB and the atheist movement, implied that A+ didn't go far enough for her. Later, PZ Myers reached out to Shakesville's Melissa McEwan by republishing her list of things atheists could do to be more appealing to feminist groups. But, in response, she (as well as her biggest-name moderator, Ana Mardoll) proceeded to excoriate him on their blogs because he made a small change of wording from her posts (she said something like, "these are rules all men should follow," and he changed that to "rules all humans should follow" or something like that). Richard Carrier, the 'intellectual artillery' of A+, has been slammed on Mardoll's and McEwan's blogs for being a rape apologist. If the A+ people are categorized as enemies by these groups even after all they've done, people will wonder what the point is. A+ demands all this from you, and then it doesn't even help makes the allies they wanted to make... so why bother?

This gets back to something Greta Christina was saying, I think. She made the tactical argument that A+ is worthwhile even if it dilutes the resources of atheist activists because it's a way for atheists to get new people onboard; folks who don't really care about prayer in schools or Creationism might still take up those issues if we in turn take up social justice issues they do care about. The net result will be, she argued, that we'll have more resources for atheist activism than before, since the gains from the new people offset what we divert to other issues. But even setting aside the implied assumption that atheist activism is by default a straight white male thing and that we have to directly pander to members of other groups to get them to care about it (which, honestly, I find offensive in and of itself), it misses that a lot of the groups A+ wants to work with are not open to this kind of compromise. They aren't in support of an arrangement where A+ helps them with something and then they help A+ with something, where different activist groups who care about different things can meet and pool resources and team up to better all. They want to accomplish their own causes, enforce their own standards, etc, and no attempts by A+ to meet them halfway will be enough.

This is why the alliances A+ is proposing don't work and cannot work -- because it's always shown as one-sided, with atheists working on other SJ causes and adopting their standards, rather than the reverse. We've seen a lot of efforts to remove sexism, racism, etc from the atheist community -- but have any of these groups looked at efforts to remove superstition and irrationality from the feminist and anti-racist communities? Shouldn't that be just as important? We've seen how A+ insists that atheists adopt the standards of other SJ communities (you can use whatever tone you want when responding to something that offends you, you can't argue with someone's personal experience or the conclusions they drew from it, what you're allowed to say depends on your identity, etc), but they don't ever seem to argue that the other SJ activists should adopt atheism standards. As a more concrete example, we've seen McEwan's big list of things atheist groups must do to be a welcoming place to feminists. She's written nothing about what feminist groups must do to welcome atheists, and as far as I can tell, neither have any other big names. Atheists aligning with these groups must sacrifice a lot, even their skepticism when it comes to the policies of these groups. After all, we've all seen what happens when an atheist argues that a moderation decision was made irrationally, or that a word shouldn't be on the banned-terms list (e.g., 'stupid') -- they get castigated and banned. But none of the other SJ activists seem willing to give up anything to make things equally 'safe' for atheists.

I think a large part of this is the idea that atheist activism isn't a 'real' SJ cause, and that being an atheist isn't a 'real' oppression. The A+ people like to talk about how traditional skeptics, all old privileged white men, do nothing but kick back and laugh at idiots who believe in Bigfoot or the Eucharist. Meanwhile it's only them (A+ people) who care about making the world a better place. Even when they refer to our activism, it's usually a derogatory comment about "bravely making sure the world is safe from nativity scenes in public parks!" And by that logic, diverting atheist resources to fighting for other causes redirects them from something useless ("laughing at idiots") to something important ("fighting discrimination"). They either don't know or don't care about the importance of our activism, and so they argue we should just devote our time and resources to fighting for them instead.

Problem is, atheist activism and skeptical outreach is actually really important. We fight Creationism and ensure that students can learn about biology. We oppose the charlatans and con-artists who use woo and pseudoscience to defraud those who are grieving, or naive, or otherwise vulnerable. We seek to expose the crimes of those who abuse the power of their pulpits to commit crimes and hide behind religious texts to divert suspicion. We help those like Jessica Alquist who are horribly demonized by religious communities. We argue against the harmful religious beliefs that sex is shameful, that humans should believe they are inherently depraved, that gay people deserve damnation, and so forth. And, yes, we do oppose nativity scenes and so forth, because it is in fact a problem when a city erects something supporting a particular religion. This work is, in fact, important. It's just as important as the other causes of the other Social Justice groups. And so the arguments that we should stop doing what we're doing and devote ourselves entirely to other groups, because it's not like we were doing anything important anyway... all they reveal is a complete lack of understanding or respect on the speaker's part as to what atheist activism actually is.

Atheist activism is important. The atheists A+ is arguing with know this. And when the A+ group tells us that we should accept the standards of other SJ sites but never insist on our own, that we should take on their causes, spend less time and attention on ours, and then maybe someday we can get back to what we're doing... they are only further marginalizing themselves.
 
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Then what is your non-racism explanation for why that is happening? So far, you have been unable to posit a relevant class distinction that is itself uncorrelated to race.

Because they subconsciously assume that somebody who is from a poor socioeconomic background regardless of race is yobbish, uncultured and would make a poor employee and they do so in a prejudicial manner based primarily on the name of the applicant.
 
Was that article that they're bashing written by a 16-year-old or was it intended as a parody?


Sadly it was probably neither. I have no problem believing it was written in complete seriousness by a genuine college-age frat guy (and not an atypical one), using every ounce of his intellect, maturity and writing skills.
 
colander. This is getting petty. I'll step back if you will. Let's start again with my previous post - 9021. Are you honestly saying that anything that correlates to any degree with race is necessarily racist? If I don't like people with HIV (I've got a phobia about retroviruses ever since I saw Bladerunner) and, hypothetically (I honestly don't know) a higher proportion of the black community than the white community have HIV, then I'm being racist, or my phobia is racist, or what?


If you go around discriminating against black people who you've no reason to suspect have AIDS because you've heard black people are more likely to have AIDS than white people are, then I'm afraid I have a hard time seeing how that's not racist.
 
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Because they subconsciously assume that somebody who is from a poor socioeconomic background regardless of race is yobbish, uncultured and would make a poor employee and they do so in a prejudicial manner based primarily on the name of the applicant.

But that doesn't help, because there's in actuality not anything about having a stereotypically black name that indicates that the bearer is low class. Rather, the action arises from the employer's preconception that people with stereotypically black names are somehow low class, an association which you yourself have been thus far unable to justify any way except tautologically.

If I decline to invite you to my tea party, and you say it is because I've got something against police officers, do you think it would prove you wrong if I said that the real reason I didn't invite you was that I thought you might be imperious and violent, as that is how I perceive people who wear blue uniforms and drive cars with sirens on them during their working hours to be?
 
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If you go around discriminating against black people who you've no reason to suspect have AIDS because you've heard black people are more likely to have AIDS than white people are, then I'm afraid I have a hard time seeing how that's not racist.
Again, you are introducing stuff here. If I am discriminating against people with HIV, and it happens that that impacts black people more than white people simply because there are more black people with HIV, am I being racist? Is my phobia racist? Imagine I really don't give a crap about race myself. Lots of black friends. I maybe do a bit of A+ approved racial activism once in a while. I've just got this thing about people with HIV. I heard you could catch if from toilet seats :-)

I was trying not to imply that I was making a jugement based on race here. I am trying to draw out whether you think correlation with race alone is enough for a thing to be racist. You seemed to be saying that earlier:

Then what is your non-racism explanation for why that is happening? So far, you have been unable to posit a relevant class distinction that is itself uncorrelated to race.
 
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But that doesn't help, because there's in actuality not anything about having a stereotypically black name that indicates that the bearer is low class. Rather, the action arises from the employer's preconception that people with stereotypically black names are somehow low class, an association which you yourself have been thus far unable to justify any way except tautologically.
Are you disputing that having a "black" name is statistically associated with poor socio-economic status?

If I decline to invite you to my tea party, and you say it is because I've got something against police officers, do you think it would prove you wrong if I said that the real reason I didn't invite you was that I thought you might be imperious and violent, as that is how I perceive people who wear blue uniforms and drive cars with sirens on them during their working hours to be?
The only people in the set of people who wear blue uniforms, etc, etc are police officers. Wear blue uniforms etc... is code for police officers, no? There are plenty of white people in the set of people with low socio-economic status. Low socio-economic status is not code for black.
 
So, I'm watching Joe Rogan's most recent podcast and he's talking about this PZ Myers/Micheal Shermer thing. He brought up the word "privilege" which I'd only seen in that context in this thread. I thought it was interesting. His guest is Buck Angel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFe1xEGtpjA
(they start talking about this around 1 hour 20 minutes in).

Joe Rogan is a bit of nut sometimes (see for instance conspiracy theories). But I like him. Thought you guys might be interested in this bit of conversation.

I liked this bit, in reference to PZ Myers:
"To call yourself a skeptic? That's not what they're doing anymore, what they're doing is getting social brownie points. They're bathing in the glowing adoration of their followers."

(something like that, it's hard to type that fast).
 
If you go around discriminating against black people who you've no reason to suspect have AIDS because you've heard black people are more likely to have AIDS than white people are, then I'm afraid I have a hard time seeing how that's not racist.

I agree with that, this would be discrimination based on race.

But that doesn't help, because there's in actuality not anything about having a stereotypically black name that indicates that the bearer is low class. Rather, the action arises from the employer's preconception that people with stereotypically black names are somehow low class, an association which you yourself have been thus far unable to justify any way except tautologically.

What I'm suggesting is that the prejudice of assuming that people with typically black names are of a low socioeconomic class extends to names that are typically white names as well. The prejudice is not racial but class based and that this could have been tested by including lower class white names as well. Such as Krystal or Kane.

If I decline to invite you to my tea party, and you say it is because I've got something against police officers, do you think it would prove you wrong if I said that the real reason I didn't invite you was that I thought you might be imperious and violent, as that is how I perceive people who wear blue uniforms and drive cars with sirens on them during their working hours to be?

I think I would just be confused.
 
If you go around discriminating against black people who you've no reason to suspect have AIDS because you've heard black people are more likely to have AIDS than white people are, then I'm afraid I have a hard time seeing how that's not racist.

So discriminating against men because they are more likely to sexually assault you is noe sexist too? That is the problem with their bs arguments you use the same rational in a different context and it is clearly bs to everyone.
 
So discriminating against men because they are more likely to sexually assault you is noe sexist too? That is the problem with their bs arguments you use the same rational in a different context and it is clearly bs to everyone.

But that's different, because reasons.
 
What I'm suggesting is that the prejudice of assuming that people with typically black names are of a low socioeconomic class extends to names that are typically white names as well. The prejudice is not racial but class based and that this could have been tested by including lower class white names as well. Such as Krystal or Kane.

Those names may or may not be more common in white people. However, since the vast majority of other names more common in white people do not provoke the same response, it seems clear that it is not the "whiteness" of these names that is doing the damage, but some other factor. Wealth or class is perhaps a likely candidate here.

By contrast, the stereotypically black names tested in the study were chosen purely based on their high prevalence rates in the black population. They've got no other class or wealth markers associated with them. That there don't appear to be any stereotypically black names that don't result in a penalty would seem to point to the conclusion that being recognizable as disproportionately common among black people is, in and of itself, sufficient to provoke penalty from employers. Sorry, but that's racism. You can argue that it's classism, and that's true, but it's only true to the extent that black people are automatically being perceived as "low class".

I think I would just be confused.

I have faith that you'll get it if you think about it a bit more.
 
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Colander,

This has been linked to, quoted and referred to multiple times:

The Causes and Consequences of Distinctively Black Names
http://wyniz.com/In_The_News/The%20C...ck%20Names.pdf

Ah, but that is not an employer study at all. It is a literature review of the whole field that, through brief summaries of many previous investigations relating to the topic of black names, hopes to give the reader a broad but by no means comprehensive understanding of the issues involved.

It does, however, reference four actual employer studies on the bottom of page four and the top of page five, so you can look them up from there.
 
I see I mucked up the link. Fixed.

I know it isn't a study of employers. What it does do is refute what you are saying. From the abstract:
Among Blacks born in the last two decades, names provide a strong signal of socio-economic status, which was not previous ly the case. We find, however, no negative causal impact of having a distinctively Black name on
life outcomes.
So, they find "black" names in fact do signal socio-economic status. Not because black people in general have worse socio-economic status (though that may be), but because black people who chose "black" names tend to have poorer socio-economic status than black people who chose non-"black" names.

This is what we have been saying for several pages. Is the study wrong? Are we misinterpreting it? Do you have another study that refutes it?

Given that "black" names are "a strong signal of socio-economic status", how does one know whether and to what extent the CVs in the study are being discriminated against on the basis of perceived race, or perceived socio-economic status?

Honestly, I'm not making a faith based argument here. I have nothing important invested in whether or not the study of CVs is good or bad, or whether black names signify socio-economic status. It's not as if I'm saying it because I want "black" names to be "a strong signal of socio-economic status". Sure, I want to be right, but if you have any evidence that this study is wrong, please produce it and I'll read it with interest.
 
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I see I mucked up the link. Fixed.

I know it isn't a study of employers. What it does do is refute what you are saying. From the abstract:

So, they find "black" names in fact do signal socio-economic status. Not because black people in general have worse socio-economic status (though that may be), but because black people who chose "black" names tend to have poorer socio-economic status than black people who chose non-"black" names.

This is what we have been saying for several pages. Is the study wrong? Are we misinterpreting it? Do you have another study that refutes it?

Given that "black" names are "a strong signal of socio-economic status", how does one know whether and to what extent the CVs in the study are being discriminated against on the basis of perceived race, or perceived socio-economic status?

Honestly, I'm not making a faith based argument here. I have nothing important invested in whether or not the study of CVs is good or bad, or whether black names signify socio-economic status. It's not as if I'm saying it because I want "black" names to be "a strong signal of socio-economic status". Sure, I want to be right, but if you have any evidence that this study is wrong, please produce it and I'll read it with interest.

It's just a math problem involving controls.

eg:
|High|Low
White|100|80
Black|70|40

Results:
Penalty for low Class: 20%
Penalty for black Race: 30%

The key is that you need examples in all categories to isolate impacts of each property.
 
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Those names may or may not be more common in white people. However, since the vast majority of other names more common in white people do not provoke the same response, it seems clear that it is not the "whiteness" of these names that is doing the damage, but some other factor. Wealth or class is perhaps a likely candidate here.

Class. Not wealth. Class.

By contrast, the stereotypically black names tested in the study were chosen purely based on their high prevalence rates in the black population.

They were not. They were chosen because of racial exclusivity, not because of a high prevalence.

"We tabulate these data by race to determine which names are distinctively White
and which are distinctively African American. Distinctive names are those that have the highest
ratio of frequency in one racial group to frequency in the other racial group."

Appendix Table 1 in the study indicates that the ten African American girls names used accounted for just ~7% of all births for the data used and African American boys accounted for ~3% of all births. The authors' insistence that these names are "quite common" is unconvincing.

The white names are even less convincing, comprising around 3% of all girls names and 1.6% of all boys names for the period.

You can argue that it's classism, and that's true, but it's only true to the extent that black people are automatically being perceived as "low class".

You are wrong. People with lower class names are perceived as being lower class. Middle class black people do not tend to choose distinctively black names. Lower class black people do. And I would guess that were the study repeated with lower class white sounding names like mis-spelled versions of common names like Khloe or Britney or misappropriated WASPish surnames used as first names like MacKenzie or Brooke would net similar results.
 
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