Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

I don't believe she did either but we weren't talking about that. Jury's still out on the possibility point so far as I'm concerned. I don't buy Briars' echoing alley though. I want a demo. If I were on a jury I would give the accused the benefit of the very considerable doubt on this point, given all the inconsistencies and the fact Curatolo didn't hear it (if he was there at all, which is not my problem).

I want a demo as well. Especially when I know what the results would be before the demo. Unfortunately, the SC doesn't seem to be giving the defendants the benefit of the doubt. Briars is just reaching about the echo or the acoustics of the valley.

 

[cuki777]

cuki pbs #63

Ahhhh this sound stuff is getting boring. OK Yummi I will concede that Nara may have heard a scream...so as a defense lawyer the question should have been... Miss Nara...was this scream at 9:30, 10, 10:30. 11, 11:30, midnight, 1AM ? This is critical information and you must be specific please...don't guess.

So your answer is?

three fixed TV cameras will provide a broadcast-quality live feed from the court.

What will ECHR make of this transparency?

 

[Mary_H]

What puts me on the extreme wing of the party Anglo? It seems to me that LJ and I are perfectly in sync.

Neither LJ or I are saying that Nara couldn't have heard, only that she would not be able to reliably discern a scream through the double pane French window door of the cottage and across 45 meters and then through the glass of Nara's window. I don't know what Nara heard but her testimony is unreliable. Not that it was false, just you sure as hell shouldn't count on it for establishing Meredith's TOD.

Here is a demo from a similar case.

 

[Mary_H]

three fixed TV cameras will provide a broadcast-quality live feed from the court.

What will ECHR make of this transparency?

How will that help anyone know what happened in the cottage, the questura and the labs?

 

[Grinder]

I think the motives were mixed and they played off each other to fuel the attack. Power and the need to humiliate for revenge is one. As far as the sexual aspect, Sollecito has an unusual interest in knives, and not the tree carving kind. The ultra violent manga is as bad as any pornography and no young man would read it unless it was a turn on.

I've been concerned about Catnip.

Guede was a hanger on opportunist who had mooched off others and probably got involved in something that looked like fun at the start. I don't know how planned it was, it may have just evolved and got out of hand.A knife may have been taken to give Meredith a post Halloween scare.She may have been angry just as Guede said and that may have been the thing that initiated the first act of aggression. Whether it was premeditated or not there was thought to post planning , which may indicate that the murder was committed with the idea at some point that Guede would take all the blame. As far as the clothes on the bed there was no shower so if Amanda washed them at Sollecito's dried them and put them on the bed that is a possibility. In my opinion they worked all night until the phone was turned back on.

They worked all night doing what? There is no evidence of significant cleanup anywhere. The bath mat wasn't washed. The blood wasn't wiped off the sink. Leaving the door locked and the window broken would have been enough for the "control" the investigation theory.

They weren't seen ANYWHERE in the middle of the night even by some drug addled person familiar to the police. There is absolutely no evidence that they were up "working" all night. They clearly would have had plenty of time to coordinate their alibi which wasn't done.

At 9:15 they go outside, unseen, and bump into Rudy and smile at each other as the immediately know he'll take the fall. Invite him along for some fun (wink, wink) and then orchestrate the crime in such a way that he leaves significant DNA etc. while they leave none.

Amanda sticks to the room because there is mixed evidence of her bare bloody footprint outside of it and a random mixed blood and DNA blob in the room with the fake robbery. She can announce with certainty they didn't find any other DNA of hers in the bedroom but must avoid the rest of the crime scene. Just because they didn't find her DNA doen't mean its not there by the way. Further she says if she participated in an orgy evidence would be there. I don't know of anyone who is saying anything like that took place. Amanda also completely discounts circomstantial evidence in her recent interviews in Italian.

There was never a match of any footprint only COMPATIBLE and the footprints tested negative for blood as you well know. Stefanoni stating that the over-applied luminol indicated blood to her trained eye was already suspect even before her obvious lack of professionalism became clear.

I believe the ISC is saying the highlighted took place or are making a big distinction between sex game and orgy?

ETA - there is nothing but alleged circumstantial evidence in the case. Please name any evidence alleged that isn't circumstantial.

 

[acbytesla]

Here is a demo from a similar case.

Perfect!!!!!

 

[Briars]

Thank you for your concern LJ. I live in the high security wing of HMP Parkhurst. Not really.

I live in Guildford and closing time brings the standard troupe of young souls past my house fresh and exuberant from their revelry. I will ask the neighbours to induce their kids to scream and then shout and then report back. He also plays acoustic guitar and that comes through the wall pretty well, despite being fairly soft and (partly) high-pitched.

I forgot to record the precise window alignments when listening to neighbourhood squabbles. So you may well be right. People can scream very loud all the same.

Assuming we agree a scream could have been heard, leaving Acbytesla on his own on the extreme wing of the party, the problems with this evidence, from an osmotic POV, are only just beginning, as Briars' crime theory shows. She has to rearrange Curatolo , who does not hear the piercing scream despite being better placed (how come that and the disco buses don't prove he was talking about the 31st if not lying?) and 'correct' Nara on her timing, such as it is, and all for what - to shift TOD back far enough to overcome all the much more powerful indicators of an early time. The running feet I guess are supposed to show multiple killers but none of them is heading over to Lana's etc etc

Piazza Grimana and the bench where Curatolo sat isn't a better position to hear sounds from the cottage. It has the disadvantage of being next to a busy intersection with cars idling at the stop light, four lanes merge there.The cottage is not visible only the gate from the rail which is down the road around a sharp bend with a building right on the corner, There are photos and videos online that show what I'm talking about.

 

[Diocletus]

three fixed TV cameras will provide a broadcast-quality live feed from the court.

What will ECHR make of this transparency?

Hopefully they'll be watching.

That said, the transparency in the courtroom isn't the concern. The real transparency issue is the prosecution's suppression of lab records. You won't see that in TV.

 

[acbytesla]

Piazza Grimana and the bench where Curatolo sat isn't a better position to hear sounds from the cottage. It has the disadvantage of being next to a busy intersection with cars idling at the stop light, four lanes merge there.The cottage is not visible only the gate from the rail which is down the road around a sharp bend with a building right on the corner, There are photos and videos online that show what I'm talking about.

Finally!!!!! we agree on something. Sort of. Neither are good. The buildings that obstructs the line of sight between the cottage and Toto's bench also would have obstructed the sound especially a high pitched sound. On the other hand, Nara couldn't have heard anything from inside the cottage either.

 

[RoseMontague]

Hopefully they'll be watching.

That said, the transparency in the courtroom isn't the concern. The real transparency issue is the prosecution's suppression of lab records. You won't see that in TV.

You have to wonder what the court will allow as far as any additional testimony or admission of evidence.

I also wonder if there will be any changes in the lawyer teams. I have seen some posts at TJMK that claim there may be a change in Raffaele's team and of course there is Patrick's lawyer in some legal troubles of his own.

The other thing I am curious about are the documents submitted by the defense teams to the Florence court. I have read where there have been submissions but I have not seen any document.

 

[Grinder]

There is no need to test the sound aspects coming from the cottage. Just as Briars moves the goal posts so will the PGP crowd including the prosecution. They will contend that the scream was made out the door or from the balcony or that the wind must have been just perfect for Nara's ear that night.

The testimony is of no value and the defense should leave the theory of it being impossible as an argument not a test.

She didn't know the time at all except it was past 10 or so. She didn't know the date as she said it was the night before she read it in the paper.

She didn't see anybody and her lack of reporting the event for months diminishes her claims of the horrific nature of the scream.

Monacchia doesn't have a time either and Nara's apartment mate makes it even more doubtful since she reports she heard footsteps but NOT a scream. Nara makes it clear that the scream was distinct. How could the neighbor hear footsteps and not the scream?

The scream doesn't prove anything even if real and heard.

Since Briars likes Rudy's account of the fight I'll take his timing account, which there is no reason for him to lie about. In fact, there is good reason for him to be honest about it in his narrative. He had a story of a "third man" and couldn't know if the scream might have been heard by a passerby so he would want his account to match truth as much as possible. 9:15-30 for the scream.

 

[Grinder]

Piazza Grimana and the bench where Curatolo sat isn't a better position to hear sounds from the cottage. It has the disadvantage of being next to a busy intersection with cars idling at the stop light, four lanes merge there.The cottage is not visible only the gate from the rail which is down the road around a sharp bend with a building right on the corner, There are photos and videos online that show what I'm talking about.

11 o'clock at night on a holiday weekend and the traffic is heavy but no one sees them out and about but Curatolo. What bad luck for the prosecution.

 

[Briars]

I've been concerned about Catnip.



They worked all night doing what? There is no evidence of significant cleanup anywhere. The bath mat wasn't washed. The blood wasn't wiped off the sink. Leaving the door locked and the window broken would have been enough for the "control" the investigation theory.

They weren't seen ANYWHERE in the middle of the night even by some drug addled person familiar to the police. There is absolutely no evidence that they were up "working" all night. They clearly would have had plenty of time to coordinate their alibi which wasn't done.

At 9:15 they go outside, unseen, and bump into Rudy and smile at each other as the immediately know he'll take the fall. Invite him along for some fun (wink, wink) and then orchestrate the crime in such a way that he leaves significant DNA etc. while they leave none.



There was never a match of any footprint only COMPATIBLE and the footprints tested negative for blood as you well know. Stefanoni stating that the over-applied luminol indicated blood to her trained eye was already suspect even before her obvious lack of professionalism became clear.

I believe the ISC is saying the highlighted took place or are making a big distinction between sex game and orgy?

ETA - there is nothing but alleged circumstantial evidence in the case. Please name any evidence alleged that isn't circumstantial.

She was an unwilling participant restrained in a game of power with a sexual componant. A vicious game where the attackers took pleasure at her expense. An orgy is pretty hard to manage with the participants dressed and the victim only partially disrobed after the fatal wound. It is also difficult to have something like that when hands are needed to keep a victim immobile. Evidence includes the mixed DNA blob in Filomena's room and the healthy sample of Sollecito on the clasp. You may want to discount the footprints but we need to hear from the courts. I asked Chris what else could have made those luminol prints and I'm waiting to hear what he thinks.

 

[Supernaut]

Nope. In terms of physics, lower frequency sound pressure waves travel further through air (i.e. with less amplitude degradation) than higher frequency sound. The reason why we tend to use higher frequencies to alert or warn is an evolutionary one, based on the fact that sounds at these frequencies are less common in nature (e.g. noises related to wind, water, movement, other animals), and therefore tend to stand out against the background more.

On this subject, it's also highly relevant to our discussion to point out that higher-frequency sound waves are degraded far more than lower-frequency waves when passing through liquid or solid mediums (I think others have also pointed this out). That's why, for example, if there were a loud party in the next room, you would hear the bass end of the music through the walls, but not the top end. And that's why any scream would be very significantly muffled by having to pass through a modern double-glazed patio door (let alone solid stone walls).

I repeat: whatever Nara and Monacchia heard (or think they heard, or lied about hearing) that night, it's extremely highly unlikely that it was a scream originating from within the girls' cottage.

The response, or sensitivity, of our hearing to differing frequencies must be taken into account.

Mapped against frequency, the perceived loudness of sound increases from the lowest frequencies that are audible (rather than felt as vibration) of c. 20 Hz up to c. 12 Khz, then starts decreasing again.

Hence, for e.g. a note on a cornet (small trumpet) at 110dB will sound ear-shreddingly loud whereas a tuba at the same pressure-level wouldn't sound loud at all [ETA >> an exaggeration - it would be loud, but perfectly bearable].

This is why 'noise' measurements (for 'signal-to-noise' figures) in audio engineering and recording are always 'weighted' by curves corresponding to it.

However, in terms of attenuation over distance, as you say, the higher the frequency the greater the attenuation - think of how a thunder-clap sounds from near-by compared to one miles distant.

 

[Briars]

duplicate

 

[Briars]

11 o'clock at night on a holiday weekend and the traffic is heavy but no one sees them out and about but Curatolo. What bad luck for the prosecution.

Busy intersection next to underused park with trees near the rail to stay partially hidden.

 

[acbytesla]

Delete

 

[Grinder]

She was an unwilling participant restrained in a game of power with a sexual componant. A vicious game where the attackers took pleasure at her expense. An orgy is pretty hard to manage with the participants dressed and the victim only partially disrobed after the fatal wound. It is also difficult to have something like that when hands are needed to keep a victim immobile. Evidence includes the mixed DNA blob in Filomena's room and the healthy sample of Sollecito on the clasp. You may want to discount the footprints but we need to hear from the courts. I asked Chris what else could have made those luminal prints and I'm waiting to hear what he thinks.

You've been told a hundred times and could look it up yourself.

Typically, luminol only shows investigators that there might be blood in an area, since other substances, including household bleach, can also cause the luminol to glow. Experienced investigators can make a reliable identification based on how quickly the reaction occurs, but they still need to run other tests to verify that it is really human blood.
Luminol in itself won't usually solve a murder case. It's only one step in the investigative process. But it can reveal essential information that gets a stalled investigation going again. For example, hidden blood spatter patterns can help investigators locate the point of attack and even what sort of weapon was used (a bullet makes blood splatter very differently than a knife does). Luminol may also reveal faint bloody shoe prints, which gives investigators valuable information about the assailant and what he or she did after the attack.
In some cases, luminol leads investigators to more evidence. For example, if luminol detects trace amounts of blood on a carpet, investigators may pull up the carpet and discover a lot of visible blood on the floorboards below.

As you know the less sensitive test, TMB, did not show the presence of blood.

The footprints make no pattern that fits with the murder and the prints DO NOT MATCH Amanda's foot. They are compatible, which doesn't eliminate thousands of others.

It is also the case that blood is very hard to remove. Had some previous tenant stepped in some diluted blood and then walked in the house those prints would still be there months or years later unless cleaned with a strong cleaning agent.

Now if the prints tested positive with TMB and showed a pattern consistent with the crime and they MATCHED Amanda's reference print that would be evidence.

If the prints weren't "compatible" (as the print with long toe) would that be evidence she was not involved? No and I'm sure the PGP would agree.

 

[MDDVS]

What the **** is a "horrific" scream anyway?

 

[MDDVS]

She was an unwilling participant restrained in a game of power with a sexual componant. A vicious game where the attackers took pleasure at her expense. An orgy is pretty hard to manage with the participants dressed and the victim only partially disrobed after the fatal wound. It is also difficult to have something like that when hands are needed to keep a victim immobile. Evidence includes the mixed DNA blob in Filomena's room and the healthy sample of Sollecito on the clasp. You may want to discount the footprints but we need to hear from the courts. I asked Chris what else could have made those luminol prints and I'm waiting to hear what he thinks.

How are those two traces of evidence of " A vicious game where the attackers took pleasure at her expense."? I don't see the connection. Even if they were evidence of murder, where is the evidence of that "game"? In other words, if there was no game but just a simple murder, how would those traces be any different?