Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

Sometime before 8 she was seen at Conads.

Why?

Why do you persist on this insain belief? Why do you accept the late memory of the store owner and reject the contemporous written account of the police officer that interviewed him in the week after Amanda's arrest and the testimony of the other store employees and the fact that there were no store receipts for that time?

The only answer you leave us with is that one account conforms to your preset belief and the other doesn't. Your brain shuts out information that is non conforming and you haven't yet learned to compensate. We call it confirmation bias.

 

[Grinder]

dupe

 

[Grinder]

Heroin - check the top of both immediate and long term use.

Immediate Side Effects Include:

Depressed, low, breathing, respiratory failure
Disorientation, confusion, memory lossNausea, faint, vomiting
Itchy skin, delusions (such as bugs crawling on skin)
Relief of pain, discomfort, aches

Health Issues From Long-Term Heroin Use
Prolonged heroin use batters the body, leading to persistent long-term health issues if addiction remains untreated. Long-term health issues arising from heroin addiction include:
Permanent long-term memory problems due to brain damageRespiratory problems
Bronchitis and pneumonia
Tooth decay and gum disease from persistent dry mouth
Impaired coughing reflex
Skin abscesses, infections and scarring
HIV transmission
Hepatitis infection
Cirrhosis and liver cancer
Cardiovascular disease and cardiomyopathy
Cardiac arrest
Cerebral hemorrhaging (bleeding in the brain)
Stroke
Fatal blood clots
Vision problemsChronic constipation and abdominal cramps

 

[Grinder]

Perhaps you need to re acquaint yourself with the actual testimony then, the police went around with the photo's to shops that sold bleach, I know of no other testimony that states otherwise.

Are you suggesting that the PLE ONLY interviewed bleach sellers?

They didn't walk around the area of the murder the next day and the days following and ask people if they saw anything, regardless of what they sold.

You don't think they went around and asked people that were out late the next daysand asked if they had seen anything?

The inspector testified that he asked Q if he had seen Amanda of Raf and Q said no. Certainly there is no doubt that he didn't come forward for close to a year and only after coming under the spell of the cub reporter.

Btw, I don't think any of you provocateurs have addressed whether you would accept a heroin addict coming forward and saying he had seen the kids in the flat throughout the evening.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Heroin - check the top of both immediate and long term use.

Immediate Side Effects Include:

Depressed, low, breathing, respiratory failure
Disorientation, confusion, memory lossNausea, faint, vomiting
Itchy skin, delusions (such as bugs crawling on skin)
Relief of pain, discomfort, aches

Health Issues From Long-Term Heroin Use
Prolonged heroin use batters the body, leading to persistent long-term health issues if addiction remains untreated. Long-term health issues arising from heroin addiction include:
Permanent long-term memory problems due to brain damageRespiratory problems
Bronchitis and pneumonia
Tooth decay and gum disease from persistent dry mouth
Impaired coughing reflex
Skin abscesses, infections and scarring
HIV transmission
Hepatitis infection
Cirrhosis and liver cancer
Cardiovascular disease and cardiomyopathy
Cardiac arrest
Cerebral hemorrhaging (bleeding in the brain)
Stroke
Fatal blood clots
Vision problemsChronic constipation and abdominal cramps

Perhaps that helps explain why Toto included things from both nights, Oct 31st and Nov 1st. Yet, doesn't it seem strange that Amanda and Raff only smoked pot yet it is they that have the memory loss!

 

[Grinder]

Witness Quintavalle, at the hearing on March 21, 2009, was asked many questions to uncover elements of information that would be useful in verifying his reliability. This was mainly because though his meeting with Amanda occurred early in the
84
morning (at 7:45 am) on November 2, 2007, he only made a statement about it in November 2008 and did not mention it earlier, even when Inspector Volturno questioned him a few days after Meredith’s murder.
This Court deems that the testimony of Quintavalle is reliable. It was discovered that Inspector Volturno did not ask Quintavalle if, on the morning of November 2, he saw Amanda Knox in his shop.
He was asked – so Quintavalle recalled - about purchases made by Raffaele Sollecito. Mr. Quintavalle did not say anything about having seen Amanda Knox on the morning of November 2, 2007 in his [76] shop because he was not questioned about this and because, as indicated by Quintavalle himself, he considered this fact to be insignificant.
He later spoke about having seen Amanda Knox

He later spoke about having seen Amanda Knox because a young man who used to live above his shop, who he knew, Antioco Fois, had just graduated and had become a freelance reporter for the newspaper Giornale dell’Umbria. When he passed him, he would sometimes ask: "But do you know anything? Did you see something? Did you hear something?" So one day Quintavalle told Fois that he had seen Amanda Knox on the morning of November 2; later he decided to go to the Public Prosecutor’s Office because Antioco Fois convinced him that this fact might be important.

Can any reasonable person believe that after seeing Amanda's picture in the papers as the suspect that it took someone to talk Q into coming forward?

His testimony isn't credible on its own but becomes absurd when others working at the store didn't see her and nothing was sold.

In addition there is no, repeat no evidence that bleach was used anywhere. No luminol bright spots and the knife showed no signs of bleach.

 

[Grinder]

Perhaps that helps explain why Toto included things from both nights, Oct 31st and Nov 1st. Yet, doesn't it seem strange that Amanda and Raff only smoked pot yet it is they that have the memory loss!

They did have less than a clear memory of the evening which is normal for smoking pot. Curatolo created a memory for the pleasure of the ILE.

I'm happy to agree with you that neither the kids nor Curatolo remembered correctly. The difference is that a defendant need not have an alibi but a prosecution witness needs to be credible and precise.

Maybe Curatolo saw a couple on Halloween 2006.

 

[Dan O.]

Perhaps you need to re acquaint yourself with the actual testimony then, the police went around with the photo's to shops that sold bleach, I know of no other testimony that states otherwise.

You know of no testimony that the police questioned toto? The confirmation bias is strong in this one.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

You know of no testimony that the police questioned toto? The confirmation bias is strong in this one.

Wrong again, hey, oh well, I'll accept your humble apology once again, thank you.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Are you suggesting that the PLE ONLY interviewed bleach sellers?

They didn't walk around the area of the murder the next day and the days following and ask people if they saw anything, regardless of what they sold.

You don't think they went around and asked people that were out late the next daysand asked if they had seen anything?

The inspector testified that he asked Q if he had seen Amanda of Raf and Q said no. Certainly there is no doubt that he didn't come forward for close to a year and only after coming under the spell of the cub reporter.

Btw, I don't think any of you provocateurs have addressed whether you would accept a heroin addict coming forward and saying he had seen the kids in the flat throughout the evening.

They did not walk around with pictures of Amanda and Raf other than to the bleach shops, where I have read in any testimony, that is what was stated, if I am wrong, I'ld love to see that said testimony.

 

[JREF2010]

The difference is that a defendant need not have an alibi but a prosecution witness needs to be credible and precise.

What makes a witness credible?
What makes the witness, Toto, more credible than the two college students saying that wasnt them Toto saw?

If there had been 4 or five sober people agreeing with Toto, then it would be a slam dunk Toto was right. But this never happened.
It was also dark, which makes me wonder how much clarity Toto, or anyone for that matter, would have in being so specific of who it was.

The witness being on heroin, by his own admission, also removes his credibility. He stated he was not a sober human, in other words, at the time of Nov 1, 2007.

And he didnt hear the scream in the open area, not far from Nara. So he doesnt corroborate his story with hers.

Toto also doesnt mention the tow truck event and he doesnt mention one other fact from that night that can be proven and corroborate his story.

He does offer seeing Halloween masks and buses which only added more skepticism, but even a few buses were running it is such a common thing, it means nothing. Its as if Toto is only saying there are tree's in the park, there are cars that drive by; none of these weak statements would corroborate details for Nov 1 2007.

If he would have said he heard the same scream as Nara and the other apartment dwellar, then maybe it would be more believable it was at least on Nov 1. But the super witness Toto, failed on that detail too.

What is for sure, if there was a form of bribery by the likes of Napoleoni, and other locals like Migninni, Toto will never tell that tale.

 

[Grinder]

They did not walk around with pictures of Amanda and Raf other than to the bleach shops, where I have read in any testimony, that is what was stated, if I am wrong, I'ld love to see that said testimony.

Please provide anything that backs up that the police only went to bleach shops. What a silly idea that the PLE wouldn't canvass the area around the cottage and then later around Raf's flat.

Does anybody have access to all the testimony and notes of the police that were canvassing?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Please provide anything that backs up that the police only went to bleach shops. What a silly idea that the PLE wouldn't canvass the area around the cottage and then later around Raf's flat.

Does anybody have access to all the testimony and notes of the police that were canvassing?

Again. I didn't say that.

 

[Grinder]

They did not walk around with pictures of Amanda and Raf other than to the bleach shops, where I have read in any testimony, that is what was stated, if I am wrong, I'ld love to see that said testimony.

Please provide anything that indicates that the police only used pictures of Amanda and Raf at bleach shops. I can't question what you claim to remember of testimony. I'm thinking that it wouldn't be a great story or worth any ink to report that the police went around with their pictures and no one had seen them, but I think it is a pretty good assumption that Vorturno didn't just go to bleach shops with the pics. If your idea floats your boat, go for it.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Please provide anything that indicates that the police only used pictures of Amanda and Raf at bleach shops. I can't question what you claim to remember of testimony. I'm thinking that it wouldn't be a great story or worth any ink to report that the police went around with their pictures and no one had seen them, but I think it is a pretty good assumption that Vorturno didn't just go to bleach shops with the pics. If your idea floats your boat, go for it.

as quoted by Dan..........
Why do you have to wonder when testimony was given that the police went around with photos of Amanda and Raffaele asking if they had been seen. This is standard police work yet you stick to some bizaar belief that a heroin addict that conjures up what the police want to hear months after the fact trumps what he told the police in the immediate aftermath of the murder.

My question was what testimony is he talking about, I only know of Vorturno's testimony, and he states he only went to shops that that sold bleach so please quit saying I said something that I did not, this is a very old practice that both sides use to argue their points but personally, I can't stand it. What do you guys gain by doing this?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I don't remember that they claimed amnesia

Perhaps that helps explain why Toto included things from both nights, Oct 31st and Nov 1st. Yet, doesn't it seem strange that Amanda and Raff only smoked pot yet it is they that have the memory loss!

They don't claim amnesia. I thought we had been through this before.

 

[Grinder]

as quoted by Dan..........
Why do you have to wonder when testimony was given that the police went around with photos of Amanda and Raffaele asking if they had been seen. This is standard police work yet you stick to some bizaar belief that a heroin addict that conjures up what the police want to hear months after the fact trumps what he told the police in the immediate aftermath of the murder.

My question was what testimony is he talking about, I only know of Vorturno's testimony, and he states he only went to shops that that sold bleach so please quit saying I said something that I did not, this is a very old practice that both sides use to argue their points but personally, I can't stand it. What do you guys gain by doing this?

Could you provide a link to Volturno's testimony where he says that he only showed pictures to bleach shops?

There was no intent on my part to misrepresent your point.

I've not seen all the police inspectors interviews and don't know where they reside.

Btw, pretty sure it's Volturno.

ETA - I found this from a PG site:

In practice the first investigative task that I carried out was as regards two containers of Ace bleach that had been seized at Raffaele Sollecito’s house on 16 November 2007. Immediately after the seizure I went around the shops in the environs of Raffaele Sollecito’s place of residence trying to understand from where they could have been purchased from, and for this purpose I was showing people the photograph of Raffaele Sollecito, the photograph of Amanda Knox. After a couple of days we tracked down the shop which was a Conad-Margherita shop situated right at the start of Corso Garibaldi, where both the owner and the shop assistants were to identify, from the photographs that we placed before them, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Raffaele Sollecito was a usual customer of this shop, while the girl had been seen two or three times in his company.
GM:
Together with Sollecito?
OV:
Yes, yes, in his company. In this shop we asked also if by chance they had noticed in the days immediately prior to the murder or straight after if they remembered whether these persons had acquired this product, although they didn’t remember. I have to preface this with the shop is subdivided into two levels, one is higher up where the entrance is and the other is lower down. The one higher up is where all the products are that people take and then go straight to the cashier, while the one below is the delicatessen, cheeses, etc etc where there were two girls working, in addition to the owner, who I think I remember was called Quintavalle. One in particular, an Ecuadorian girl, at the time I recall that it was interesting, she said to us that she had a friend who was doing the cleaning at Raffaele Sollecito’s house and she indicated the cellular device with which we then contacted her, although as for the bleach nothing came out of it, either a person or a mention of something. We were checking that…

While he discussing looking for the source of bleach it is not clear he only went to "bleach shops"

What is more interesting is that he showed Amanda's picture to Q and old Q said he's seen her but forgot to mention he'd seen her the morning after waiting to enter his store

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Could you provide a link to Volturno's testimony where he says that he only showed pictures to bleach shops?

There was no intent on my part to misrepresent your point.

I've not seen all the police inspectors interviews and don't know where they reside.

Btw, pretty sure it's Volturno.

ETA - I found this from a PG site:

In practice the first investigative task that I carried out was as regards two containers of Ace bleach that had been seized at Raffaele Sollecito’s house on 16 November 2007. Immediately after the seizure I went around the shops in the environs of Raffaele Sollecito’s place of residence trying to understand from where they could have been purchased from, and for this purpose I was showing people the photograph of Raffaele Sollecito, the photograph of Amanda Knox. After a couple of days we tracked down the shop which was a Conad-Margherita shop situated right at the start of Corso Garibaldi, where both the owner and the shop assistants were to identify, from the photographs that we placed before them, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Raffaele Sollecito was a usual customer of this shop, while the girl had been seen two or three times in his company.
GM:
Together with Sollecito?
OV:
Yes, yes, in his company. In this shop we asked also if by chance they had noticed in the days immediately prior to the murder or straight after if they remembered whether these persons had acquired this product, although they didn’t remember. I have to preface this with the shop is subdivided into two levels, one is higher up where the entrance is and the other is lower down. The one higher up is where all the products are that people take and then go straight to the cashier, while the one below is the delicatessen, cheeses, etc etc where there were two girls working, in addition to the owner, who I think I remember was called Quintavalle. One in particular, an Ecuadorian girl, at the time I recall that it was interesting, she said to us that she had a friend who was doing the cleaning at Raffaele Sollecito’s house and she indicated the cellular device with which we then contacted her, although as for the bleach nothing came out of it, either a person or a mention of something. We were checking that…

While he discussing looking for the source of bleach it is not clear he only went to "bleach shops"

What is more interesting is that he showed Amanda's picture to Q and old Q said he's seen her but forgot to mention he'd seen her the morning after waiting to enter his store

pages 76 and 78 on PMF posted by catnip, part 1 and part 2, the entire Volturno's testimony..........


Q: You carried out other investigations in the surrounding zones or just in Corso Garibaldi?
A: Corso Garibaldi and surrounding zones but I did not…

Q: But still all business concerns?
A: Yes, business concerns that had that product on sale, the famous bleach that then had been seized, it was done due to that.

Q: Therefore only business concerns that were selling this product, not in general?
A: Exactly, no.

 

[RWVBWL]

The Main Suspect

What is more interesting is that he showed Amanda's picture to Q and old Q said he's seen her but forgot to mention he'd seen her the morning after waiting to enter his store

That's it folks!
No if, ands, or buts!

Quint was shown a photo of Amanda Knox
and as Patrick Lumumba mentioned in an interview, the whole town knew,
everyone was talking about a brutal murder that had been committed against a cute female foreign college student.

Amanda Knox, aka 'Foxy Knoxy' was locked up in solitary in prison,
and yet Quint, when shown a photo of Amanda Knox over 2 weeks later, did not, I repeat did not inform the dectective, err investigating officer that Miss Knox, THE MAIN SUSPECT, was seen waiting outside his store before he even opened shop that morning after Miss Kercher was murdered.

I don't know about you guys+gals,
but I've owned a store for over 20 years, a well known surfshop in 'DogTown'.
I've been ripped off before, be it my car, residence, or business.

And I gota say,
MOST people luv helping the cops catch a dangerous criminal!
I have helped the police many a time, be it counterfeit travellers cheques, bogus U.S. currency, credit card fraud or theft.
Looked at a coupla different line-up pix, "which 1, RW, out of the 6, was the suspect"?
I've even sat in a Santa Monica Police squad car and cruised around looking for a perp before.
Found 'em, he was arrested. Went to a parole hearing for some criminal scumbag just to help keep him off the streets after he made terrorizing threats againts me at work. The Santa Monica Police officers who also showed up thanked me for driving all the way from the beach to Downtown L.A. for this hearing.

Have you ever helped the police catch someone?

In my humble opinion,
there is no reason whatsoever for ol' Quint to not have told the investigating officer the truth that he saw Amanda Knox that morning awaiting his store to open and that she then looked at cleaning supplies. Amanda's mug shot was ALL over the local newspapers and nightly local TV newscasts!

Who wouldn't wanna brag at the next dinner party that yes,
HE had helped bust that murderous 'Foxy Knoxy'!!!

In my humble opinion,
no store owners memory of seeing and then dealing with the many customers who shop his store gets better with age a year later, especially if he could not tell a cop that he saw the MAIN SUSPECT in a brutal murder, in his store the following morning.


Why do the court+pro-guilt folks believe this crap?

 

[Skind]

Perhaps you need to re acquaint yourself with the actual testimony then, the police went around with the photo's to shops that sold bleach, I know of no other testimony that states otherwise.

The officer that went around to shops that sold bleach testified that he went around to shops that sold bleach.

This testimony does not exclude the possibility that other officers did the routine canvassing.