Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RandyN]

How is a child killer looking for cash for a sex change type of witness?

I happen to agree with you 100% on this one.

This goes to my contention that the defense (in this instance Bongiorno) was a useless piece of crap who did next to nothing during this whole case. In fact during the appeal the defense was completely unnecessary...the only one asking pertinent questions was Zanetti.

Didn't more than one jailhouse snitch testify though?

This was also a place where Hellmann screwed the pooch though. By letting Guede read his letter...even if he had to have Mignini read it for him...something about the big words or handwriting...then that should have opened up Guede for complete cross exam. Guede gets to state that he always thought the AK and RS were involved but no defense lawyer got to challenge that statement.

Odd that this would be the exact type of thing one would expect the ISC to rule on and yet I don't recall this even being raised as an issue? Maybe I missed it. Or maybe the defenses forgot? WAFS!

 

[Bill Williams]

This was also a place where Hellmann screwed the pooch though. By letting Guede read his letter...even if he had to have Mignini read it for him...something about the big words or handwriting...then that should have opened up Guede for complete cross exam. Guede gets to state that he always thought the AK and RS were involved but no defense lawyer got to challenge that statement.

Odd that this would be the exact type of thing one would expect the ISC to rule on and yet I don't recall this even being raised as an issue? Maybe I missed it. Or maybe the defenses forgot? WAFS!

That's exactly the issue isn't it!? This is exactly the type of thing that proves, to me anyway, that the ISC missed the mark rather badly.

The ISC seems to have now enshrined in Italian law, through precedent, that evidence can be entered against people with no right of cross examination.

What am I missing here? If no one can come up with a legal-rationale for the ISC not to even comment on this oversight by Hellmann's; then we have to assume that in Italy one can be tried with no right of full and vigourous answer.

Stay away from Italy.

 

[JREF2010]

Suppose a bloodstain on the sheet had Rudy's DNA. That would be something.

Its a safe bet, if Raffaele or Amandas traces were there it would have been mentioned a million times. So its most likely not a defense issue, which also makes the prosecution benefit from hiding any evidence that would support the defense (such as other peoples DNA or contamination proof).

I thought the Bra Clasp was already proven to have several peoples DNA on it, proving the bra clasp was contaminated..or if not contamination, then Migninni needs to lock up several more people for being in the unplanned satanic sex orgy , who left their DNA on the bra clasp.

 

[Antony]

Is there ANYONE who did not change their story once the police got ahold of them? Maybe Nara... but Nara made her first comments on TV, and police were claiming they knew what she was saying BEFORE interviewing her but seeing her on TV.

Knox, Sollecito, Lumumba, Guede, Curatolo, Quintavalle.... they ALL changed their stories, only as a result of contact with the PLE. The unique thing about Knox and Sollecito is that they changed their stories back to what they'd said all along once they had lawyers. They have not changed since.

Why is it that people change their stories when the PLE gets a hold of them..... makes you go, "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"?

Good point. PGP go on and on about the alleged "constantly changing" stories of AK and RS, yet say nothing about the changing and mutually inconsistent stories of the witnesses and the police themselves.

One of the first things I noticed about the whole controversy was the torrent of claims of "lies" from AK and RS - yet when considered objectively they all turned out either to be while they were being manipulated by the police, or solely as reported by the police (and therefore open to misrepresentation).

Plus, of course, possible inaccuracies as a result of the stress and confusion at the time of the discovery of the crime - which no fair-minded person would consider "lies" at all. An example is the discrepancy, as reported by Filomena and Amanda, over whether Meredith locked her door.

 

[Grinder]

Couples don't hang out in that park , There are people shooting hoops and maybe some people looking for or selling drugs, It is atypical of an Italian piazza ,dusty grungy and no nice stonework. Most important there is no view from the rail and no reason for a couple to keep looking over it. Nor is there a reason to spend time and return on the same night. Curatolo gave a natural account he didn't say they came and went he simply noticed them at different times.

Well since they went off and murdered someone during the 2 and half hours he claims he saw them, wouldn't it have been expected that he would have looked up during their absence and noted the time? If it was so unusual for people to be in the plaza how did the kiosk operator stay in business? Regardless, the more unusual you make it, the more it is unbelievable that no one else noticed and that Curatolo didn't pay closer attention to them? At least every time he finished a page or lit a cigarette he should noted their whereabouts. He would have worried for their safety.

Did you do the experiment on an acquaintance? Can you imagine his story being used in movie without the viewers booing?

What is a natural account? One that fits with what the prosecution wanted and needed?

 

[Grinder]

If he wanted to lie he could have said he looked over the rail and saw a couple by the gate, His story is believable , especially because he didn't embellish the facts and say they left in a hurry and came back or something like that. His bench is near the rail where a couple looked out at what? A news reporter encouraged him to come forward not the PLE.

He didn't embellish. How do you know? You think he checked his watch on arrival and remembered it was 9:27 for six months but only knew he left just before midnight?

I believe Mary has his name, the reporter that convinced almost all of the witnesses to come forward. I don't know if the tabs in Italy have budgets for exclusive stories. Why didn't he tell the truth to the PLE right away?

If this cub reporter convinced two or more of the only civilian witnesses to come forward months after the crime would that be an issue for you?

If an heroin addict was found today that swears he saw Raf and Amanda through the window of Raf's at 10 would you believe it?

 

[Grinder]

You said it. They stay home and.....

 

[JREF2010]

If an heroin addict was found today that swears he saw Raf and Amanda through the window of Raf's at 10 would you believe it?

Ive never heard anyone put it that way, but its a great comment.

If you were a desperate prosecutor scraping the bottom of the floor for any evidence to blame on someone you wanted to prove was guilty, you might accept the drug induced ramblings that has no corroboration with any sober person.

As a skeptic, we can laugh at Toto, as the courtroom did. But when a murder case that will cost millions and make the system look like those in office are imbeciles, then maybe Toto has to be picked up and removed before he says other embarrassing things that embarrass the system. If he dies while in polizia custody, well the Prosecution wont shed a tear and will not fear being embarrassed again by their "super-witness".
Now Migninni and Maresca can speak for Toto.

 

[Grinder]

Ive never heard anyone put it that way, but its a great comment.

If you were a desperate prosecutor scraping the bottom of the floor for any evidence to blame on someone you wanted to prove was guilty, you might accept the drug induced ramblings that has no corroboration with any sober person.

As a skeptic, we can laugh at Toto, as the courtroom did. But when a murder case that will cost millions and make the system look like those in office are imbeciles, then maybe Toto has to be picked up and removed before he says other embarrassing things that embarrass the system. If he dies while in polizia custody, well the Prosecution wont shed a tear and will not fear being embarrassed again by their "super-witness".
Now Migninni and Maresca can speak for Toto.

I have asked before. Does anybody know if video recordings were made of his testimony?

Also, Massei establishes the time he left the plaza and saw them at no later than 11:30 because at that time the disco buses he "saw" had always left. Now that we know the disco buses weren't there that night, the time he left should revert to "near midnight". The near midnight time makes it more difficult for Magic Mignini to fit the various "facts" he has put forward into the narrative.

 

[Skind]

Curatolo may have thought the buses were running and not remembered correctly as they were there every week just like he was , accustomed noise loses its ability to stand out. The defendants were not there on Halloween, he saw the men in white for the first time the day after, more important. He may have seen a few students in costume on the Nov 1 attending a local party.

Then he wouldn't have noticed that they were running and would therefore not have been able to state that they were.

Had he not claimed they were running, or claimed that they weren't, and it turned out they were, then your arguement would make sense.

As it is, you've just provided a good, solid reason to distrust his statements further.

Under normal circumstances, he would not have noticed the disco buses, thus his statement that he did requires that he noticed them for some reason. That they turned out to not have been running therefore casts severe doubts on his claims that they were.

 

[GreyFox]

What if the defense came out now with a witness (Maybe someone having an affair) that claims he was visiting a neighbor of Rafs and upon arrival smelled pot coming from the kids Apt. while passing by at say 9:35pm. Then when leaving heard them laughing at 10:50 pm. Would he be believable after all this time?

 

[Skind]

The park is not a busy place at night A couple of people busy with their game maybe or the odd drug dealer, Its not an inviting place to go for just social reasons.

Yet Curotalo said there were plenty of people there in masks getting on and off buses.

Now you're saying this element of his statements isn't true either.

Sorry but - are you supposed to be defending him? All you've done in the last few days is rip his statements to shreds.

 

[GreyFox]

Why would the three kids be running after the murder past Nara's place? Rudy maybe...but why would Knox ? Because MK screamed ? So they all three take off running ? I doubt it. Three people holding MK down and no one puts a hand over her mouth???

More like one killer who cant control the victims arms ,legs and mouth!

 

[Skind]

This was really has me amused and makes me question your ability to be logical with everyday smarts. You think if Sollecito said he emailed during the night or early morning and this fell outside of the hour of her death the police would have no interest? Really the night hours and early morning activity after a murder have no significance? You brought it up again and I had been willing to let you off the hook.

Pretty much. If Sollecito could not prove he was answering emails at the exact moment the murder occured, the prosecution would simply claim he must have gone out, committed the murder, and then gone back home within the gap.

Funnily enough, this is exactly what happened. When the defence brought up computer activity in the first trial, Massei simply accepted the arguement that Sollecito could have committed the murder in between his friends visit and his computer activity.

In essence, you're claiming that what actually happened is somehow illogical.

 

[Skind]

Couples don't hang out in that park , There are people shooting hoops and maybe some people looking for or selling drugs, It is atypical of an Italian piazza ,dusty grungy and no nice stonework. Most important there is no view from the rail and no reason for a couple to keep looking over it. Nor is there a reason to spend time and return on the same night. Curatolo gave a natural account he didn't say they came and went he simply noticed them at different times.

Get your story straight.

You said that the park is not a place to hang out for social reasons, yet now you have people hanging out to shoot some hoops.

 

[Bill Williams]

This was really has me amused and makes me question your ability to be logical with everyday smarts. You think if Sollecito said he emailed during the night or early morning and this fell outside of the hour of her death the police would have no interest? Really the night hours and early morning activity after a murder have no significance? You brought it up again and I had been willing to let you off the hook.

Pretty much. If Sollecito could not prove he was answering emails at the exact moment the murder occured, the prosecution would simply claim he must have gone out, committed the murder, and then gone back home within the gap.

Funnily enough, this is exactly what happened. When the defence brought up computer activity in the first trial, Massei simply accepted the arguement that Sollecito could have committed the murder in between his friends visit and his computer activity.

In essence, you're claiming that what actually happened is somehow illogical.

Briars is simply cherry picking aspects from each item to prove guilt. The barest indication of this is the way Briars says, "I believe Curatolo's story".....

There are two problems with this:

1) Which story? The one directly following the murder where he says he doesn't remember anything suspicious, or the one month's later where he suddenly has memories of disco buses, hallowe'en costumes and no screams, which is obviously Oct 31?!!

2) Like Gringer said, if Curatolo had been presented as a defence witness for giving Knox and Sollecito an alibi, the prosecution (and Briars) would have been all over him as a heroin addict like a cheap suit.​

Briars' posts are the definition of confirmation bias. And please note, I'm just just making the accusation and leaving it at that - I am showing why there is substance to the allegation - leaving out half the story is one sure sign.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

shoe 'nuff, that is what must have happened

Why would the three kids be running after the murder past Nara's place? Rudy maybe...but why would Knox ? Because MK screamed ? So they all three take off running ? I doubt it. Three people holding MK down and no one puts a hand over her mouth???

More like one killer who cant control the victims arms ,legs and mouth!

I thought that Knox and Sollecito were supposed to be naked (that is why there are no bloody clothes). I don't think anyone would run around on a chilly November night sans clothing, and if they did, it is difficult to explain what made the sound of steps. Did they pull on their shoes really quickly?

 

[Bill Williams]

Arguing with guilters is like arguing about what colour the pieces on a chess board are.

Guilters are always pointing out, "Wow, look at all those black pieces! Therefore the colour of the pieces on the board must be all black.

And Groupies™ never notice that the squares are also black. Coincidence, I think not!"

 

[Briars]

Yet Curotalo said there were plenty of people there in masks getting on and off buses.

Now you're saying this element of his statements isn't true either.

Sorry but - are you supposed to be defending him? All you've done in the last few days is rip his statements to shreds.

The buses don't enter the square what are you talking about.

 

[Briars]

Get your story straight.

You said that the park is not a place to hang out for social reasons, yet now you have people hanging out to shoot some hoops.

Not a place to have a coffee or sit and enjoy the view with friends kind of social.