Pope responds question from atheist - Can a non-believer be saved?

[eight bits]

Here's the Repubblica's English translation of Francis' letter to them:

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/

Francis' understanding of the question that the editor had asked him, closest to the paraphrase in the topic title, is

First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.

This is not a question about salvation, but about the outcome of God's judgment of individuals.

Personal salvation often has some bearing upon, but is not a necessary condition for a favorable outcome during God's judgment of an individual. There is nothing doctrinally new about Francis' answer,

Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision.

nor was there any modification of the ancient doctrine that outside the church there is no salvation. Francis' answer plainly says nothing at all about salvation, only about God's mercy. Neither did the question ask about salvation, at least not as Francis restated it in his letter. Salvation and mercy (or the closely related forgiveness) are two different subjects.

 

[superfreddy]

Here's the Repubblica's English translation of Francis' letter to them:

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/

Francis' understanding of the question that the editor had asked him, closest to the paraphrase in the topic title, is


This is not a question about salvation, but about the outcome of God's judgment of individuals.

Personal salvation often has some bearing upon, but is not a necessary condition for a favorable outcome during God's judgment of an individual. There is nothing doctrinally new about Francis' answer,


nor was there any modification of the ancient doctrine that outside the church there is no salvation. Francis' answer plainly says nothing at all about salvation, only about God's mercy. Neither did the question ask about salvation, at least not as Francis restated it in his letter. Salvation and mercy (or the closely related forgiveness) are two different subjects.

Thanks for the English translation.

How is salvation different than God's mercy and forgiveness? Traditional doctrine teaches that you need to be forgiven of your sins by God in all his mercy in order to achieve salvation. The NT says that you can only achieve it through Jesus, the pope seems to saying otherwise.

I still remember an example I heard from priests many time, when asked about people in places where they never heard of Jesus and his message. The thought is that God, in is infinite mercy, would find it in his heart to save those poor souls. However, if you teach them the gospels and they reject the message, they will NOT be saved.

Again, the pope it saying otherwise, so, why bother going through the motions of being a Catholic? Seems like Francis is making a compelling case for atheism.

 

[Craig B]

nor was there any modification of the ancient doctrine that outside the church there is no salvation. Francis' answer plainly says nothing at all about salvation, only about God's mercy. Neither did the question ask about salvation, at least not as Francis restated it in his letter. Salvation and mercy (or the closely related forgiveness) are two different subjects.

Please explain to me, in simple terms, relating to the doctrine regarding the fate of souls after death, what you mean by this distinction. If there is no salvation outside the church, what happens to the souls of people who die outside the church? In what way does God's mercy, assuming it to be different from salvation, affect the posthumous fate of such non-believing souls as may be its recipients?

 

[Correa Neto]

I know this is going to look weird ... but is it possible he believes what he is saying, as a matter of principle?

No, I don't think its weird. Its a good question, actually.

I think its possible, but its really hard to know in what people actually believe. Maybe he's ideas are much more progressive than he lets slip or maybe its actually the opposite. Given his positions regarding women conducting masses (sticking to the Catholic's church retrograde and discriminative policies) and gays (something like its OK as long as they do not have gay sex, but sold as a more progressive view)... I tend towards some embelishment of more conservative positions. Conservative but still progressive when compared with those from the previous pope. Well, I used lots of words to say "I don't know"...

Along this line but quite a bit OT, I always wondered and still wonder if religious leaders (especially those at the top ranks) actually believe in their religions and if they do, exactly in what?

The tele evangelists and their ilk asking for money, meh. I doubt they actually believe. I believe (not the chosen word) some probably are as atheist as I am. Been to more than a Catholic mass where the priests seemed to be doing a tired worn-out routine, not actually believing in what he was saying and doing... And those radicals asking for the infidel's blood in the name of some god... Bet its just to keep (or increase) their power, their position in society.

 

[Correa Neto]

So, what if I'm Mr. Nice Guy but the message was brought to me by an incompetent evangelizer?

I am doomed to go to Hell because someone else's flaws?

 

[eight bits]

Howdy Craig

Well, what can I tell you? Catholics don't teach "Evangelical Protestant" soteriology. You can go to heaven without being personally saved. Or, if you prefer, different Christians mean different things by the word.

If there is no salvation outside the church, what happens to the souls of people who die outside the church?

The same thing that happens to everybody. Catholics teach that there is a prompt personal judgment, and then there will be a general judgment of all humanity at the end of this world.

The outcome of the judgment is God's prerogative. Catholics believe that people's actions will be judged according to their individual consciences. The church can help develop souls that will have confidence of passing their judgment but other souls may pass, too. The church does not have a power to damn anybody.

In what way does God's mercy, assuming it to be different from salvation, affect the posthumous fate of such non-believing souls as may be its recipients?

The outcome of the judgment is God's prerogative, not the church's. The churchmen are intermediaries. "Salvation" is something you can achieve in time and space, with God's grace and ideally with the church's assistance, to influence the outcome of the judgment, be justified, and all manner of good things. Regardless, come your judgement, if God says you're in, then you're in.

 

[Navigator]

On tormenting forever in hellfire

Dump the narcissism and look at the loving-kindness.

If you can.

If not, that might say more about you than it does about Jesus.

Tormenting in hell fire is not an act of love, any which way you look at it.

 

[superfreddy]

Dump the narcissism and look at the loving-kindness.

If you can.

If not, that might say more about you than it does about Jesus.

Tormenting in hell fire is not an act of love, any which way you look at it.

I believe the Catholic church moved away from the "burn in eternity" type of hell and described damnation as "being absent from God", whatever that means.

 

[Craig B]

Howdy CraigWell, what can I tell you? Catholics don't teach "Evangelical Protestant" soteriology. You can go to heaven without being personally saved. Or, if you prefer, different Christians mean different things by the word.

Insofar as I am or am not personally going to heaven, I don't understand what you mean. I'm not saying I disagree with you; I simply have no idea what you mean.

The same thing that happens to everybody. Catholics teach that there is a prompt personal judgment, and then there will be a general judgment of all humanity at the end of this world.

Once all persons have been individually judged, what does "a general judgement of humanity" in fact mean? Has it not already happened, as the individuals comprising humanity have already been dealt with, by your understanding of things?

The outcome of the judgment is God's prerogative. Catholics believe that people's actions will be judged according to their individual consciences. The church can help develop souls that will have confidence of passing their judgment but other souls may pass, too. The church does not have a power to damn anybody.

I have not suggested that it does. I don't know what the rest of that passage means, in terms of "salvation".

The outcome of the judgment is God's prerogative, not the church's. The churchmen are intermediaries. "Salvation" is something you can achieve in time and space, with God's grace and ideally with the church's assistance, to influence the outcome of the judgment, be justified, and all manner of good things. Regardless, come your judgement, if God says you're in, then you're in.

My question was this: if God's mercy is different from salvation, what is its effect on a soul which has received it, assuming the soul has been denied salvation on account of being outside the church, being non-believing, or whatever? You don't seen to have addressed this question, assuming I am understanding any part of what you have written. If you have addressed it, please show me where.

 

[A'isha]

So, what if I'm Mr. Nice Guy but the message was brought to me by an incompetent evangelizer?

I am doomed to go to Hell because someone else's flaws?

Not necessarily.

 

[Craig B]

Catholics believe that people's actions will be judged according to their individual consciences.

Didn't always believe that. Here's the missionary St Francis Xavier describing to his Jesuit colleagues in a letter home one of the issues his Japanese converts raised with him, and his response to it. It has always made me shudder with horror.

One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment.

Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552.

 

[Correa Neto]

Not necessarily.

You may be correct, but I guess it all depends on the interpretation...

For example,
"Seek the unknown God", if this includes discussing god with theists and atheists, well, then I guess Mr. John D. Good Guy, the noble atheist, may go to Heaven just by posting at or reading this forum...

But then there's these other parts:
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church"
Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
smells of barbecued Mr. John D. Good Guy, if he happened to know the Bible, Christian churches or even the Quran and happened to disbelive or not been convinced at all because it made no sense to him.

 

[A'isha]

You may be correct, but I guess it all depends on the interpretation...

For example,
"Seek the unknown God", if this includes discussing god with theists and atheists, well, then I guess Mr. John D. Good Guy, the noble atheist, may go to Heaven just by posting at or reading this forum...

But then there's these other parts:
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church"
Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
smells of barbecued Mr. John D. Good Guy, if he happened to know the Bible, Christian churches or even the Quran and happened to disbelive or not been convinced at all because it made no sense to him.

If you are taught the Truth (as Catholics see it), but reject it anyway, you're pretty much screwed. But if, as your post says, you're not taught the Truth because of a lack of opportunity or an incompetent evangelist (or, worse, an evangelist of the wrong religion/denomination), you still have a shot.

In other words, if you weren't exposed to Catholic teachings and were raised Jewish/Muslim/Atheist/Jehovah's Witness/etc, and some nice young Mormon men came to your door and you converted based on what they taught you, that doesn't count. If, however, you were raised Catholic and attended CCD classes as a child and then said "nope, this stuff isn't for me", you're doomed as far as the Church is concerned.

I personally happen to fall into the latter category, incidentally.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

If you are taught the Truth (as Catholics see it), but reject it anyway, you're pretty much screwed. But if, as your post says, you're not taught the Truth because of a lack of opportunity or an incompetent evangelist (or, worse, an evangelist of the wrong religion/denomination), you still have a shot.

In other words, if you weren't exposed to Catholic teachings and were raised Jewish/Muslim/Atheist/Jehovah's Witness/etc, and some nice young Mormon men came to your door and you converted based on what they taught you, that doesn't count. If, however, you were raised Catholic and attended CCD classes as a child and then said "nope, this stuff isn't for me", you're doomed as far as the Church is concerned.

I personally happen to fall into the latter category, incidentally.

I'm doomed too.

 

[tsig]

If you are taught the Truth (as Catholics see it), but reject it anyway, you're pretty much screwed. But if, as your post says, you're not taught the Truth because of a lack of opportunity or an incompetent evangelist (or, worse, an evangelist of the wrong religion/denomination), you still have a shot.

In other words, if you weren't exposed to Catholic teachings and were raised Jewish/Muslim/Atheist/Jehovah's Witness/etc, and some nice young Mormon men came to your door and you converted based on what they taught you, that doesn't count. If, however, you were raised Catholic and attended CCD classes as a child and then said "nope, this stuff isn't for me", you're doomed as far as the Church is concerned.

I personally happen to fall into the latter category, incidentally.

Well, as an ex seminarian I'll be deeper in hell than you'll be, so there.

 

[A'isha]

Well, as an ex seminarian I'll be deeper in hell than you'll be, so there.

 

[Darat]

I'm lucky - my lot (sort of primitive Methodists) have a sort of pascal wager's type system. I.e. God has infinite love and forgiveness so he will forgive us all. Which to even my young mind raised the question "then why shouldn't I do all the things you say I shouldn't if I want to get into heaven?"

I remember "Because!" was an oft used answer in my Sunday school lessons.

 

[Correa Neto]

If you are taught the Truth (as Catholics see it), but reject it anyway, you're pretty much screwed. But if, as your post says, you're not taught the Truth because of a lack of opportunity or an incompetent evangelist (or, worse, an evangelist of the wrong religion/denomination), you still have a shot.

In other words, if you weren't exposed to Catholic teachings and were raised Jewish/Muslim/Atheist/Jehovah's Witness/etc, and some nice young Mormon men came to your door and you converted based on what they taught you, that doesn't count. If, however, you were raised Catholic and attended CCD classes as a child and then said "nope, this stuff isn't for me", you're doomed as far as the Church is concerned.

I personally happen to fall into the latter category, incidentally.

Well, before meeting you and all those other JREFers in HELL, I would hire SATAN as lawyer...

So, OK, I knew about Jesus and it all, more than many a believer and with blame on my part, have not arrived at an explicit knowledge of God. Now, how much personal blame will it take to send me to burn forever in HELLFIRE? What if it was not just my fault... What about all those priests and evangelists who failed to convince me? What about my family's blame for not being very good at religious indoctrination? What about those godless folks whose discourses were much better than the religious fellows? And what if god hardened my heart, just like god did to that poor and later drowned pharaoh? How much blame is enough to barbecue me or Mr. Joe D. Good Guy? Is there a Heaven or HELL formula with personal blame, good deeds, bad deeds and someone elses' blame as variables? How these values are determined? I and my lawyer will want to see the spreadsheets, the numbers, the criteria, etc.

 

[A'isha]

So, OK, I knew about Jesus and it all, more than many a believer and with blame on my part, have not arrived at an explicit knowledge of God. Now, how much personal blame will it take to send me to burn forever in HELLFIRE? What if it was not just my fault... What about all those priests and evangelists who failed to convince me? What about my family's blame for not being very good at religious indoctrination? What about those godless folks whose discourses were much better than the religious fellows? And what if god hardened my heart, just like god did to that poor and later drowned pharaoh? How much blame is enough to barbecue me or Mr. Joe D. Good Guy? Is there a Heaven or HELL formula with personal blame, good deeds, bad deeds and someone elses' blame as variables? How these values are determined? I and my lawyer will want to see the spreadsheets, the numbers, the criteria, etc.

In theory, that's all in the hands of God, and only He can make that judgment as to whether you get to slip through into heaven or are condemned to hell. Better to become a good Catholic, just to be on the safe side.

In practice, it depends on whether any given member of the clergy or laity is feeling particularly judgmental about you and/or is trying to hector you into becoming a good Catholic.

 

[Kathie Bondar]

Pope Francis published a response letter to questions posed by a self proclaimed atheist named Scalfari and published in Italian newspaper La Repubblica. He calls for unity and an open dialogue. He adds an interesting observation, saying that the Christian God can forgive even non-believer. This is curious because as far as I know, the NT specifically says that one cannot achieve salvation without Jesus.

Sorry about the Italian link, I couldn't find a translation.

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/sintesi_lettera_bergoglio-66283390/?ref=HREA-1

A Christian God? Is the poor pope off his r...? Since when is there a Christian or some other type of god? Has the pope defined god as yet or is he simply following ancient definitions, traditions and beliefs?
I think most of the major religions are failing their followers by not advancing into the 21st century. Since Christ there have been many progressive thinkers and scientists, by and large all ignored by modern religions who derives some advantage of sticking their respective heads in the sand, and who by the way solicit moneys from people they profess to serve. So, who is serving who?