• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Three weeks to go before the appeal starts (hopefully), no leaks in the media from the prosecution or defence teams, don’t know who the lead prosecutor will be nor the judges, defence haven’t released their appeal doco, looks like everyone is keeping tight lipped, I wonder why?

I guess opening arguments are going to be interesting to say the least; I wonder whether the appeal will be won or lost during this phase? I have a feeling that this appeal will be full time, dare I say 5 day weeks it could all be over by mid-November.
 
Three weeks to go before the appeal starts (hopefully), no leaks in the media from the prosecution or defence teams, don’t know who the lead prosecutor will be nor the judges, defence haven’t released their appeal doco, looks like everyone is keeping tight lipped, I wonder why?

I guess opening arguments are going to be interesting to say the least; I wonder whether the appeal will be won or lost during this phase? I have a feeling that this appeal will be full time, dare I say 5 day weeks it could all be over by mid-November.

Ditto. Quite different from the first one.
 
Three weeks to go before the appeal starts (hopefully), no leaks in the media from the prosecution or defence teams, don’t know who the lead prosecutor will be nor the judges, defence haven’t released their appeal doco, looks like everyone is keeping tight lipped, I wonder why?

I guess opening arguments are going to be interesting to say the least; I wonder whether the appeal will be won or lost during this phase? I have a feeling that this appeal will be full time, dare I say 5 day weeks it could all be over by mid-November.

I guess it depends on what new evidence is ordered up. New knife blade tests? New computer evidence from Sollecito? Prosecution finally compelled to produce suppressed lab records?
 
Three weeks to go before the appeal starts (hopefully), no leaks in the media from the prosecution or defence teams, don’t know who the lead prosecutor will be nor the judges, defence haven’t released their appeal doco, looks like everyone is keeping tight lipped, I wonder why?

I guess opening arguments are going to be interesting to say the least; I wonder whether the appeal will be won or lost during this phase? I have a feeling that this appeal will be full time, dare I say 5 day weeks it could all be over by mid-November.

I would imagine that the appeal documents remain the same as the first appeal.
 
I think it's wise not to show your hand and let the other side prepare. IMO
The big difference is the prosecution has not thrown anything out in the press this time that makes the defense have to fight on two fronts. In the media as well as the courtroom.

I wonder what the right track is though? If everythings based off Rudys trial then the focus should be on how to prove there wasnt two knives or more than one killer (egrams etc.).Nara and Toto need discredited all over again etc.
How to dismantle the court rulings from that trial which would bring to question...does every inch gained in the appeal disapear? C&V report out the window.

It wouldnt be the end of the world since the defence already has done it once. They might even be able to do it better (stronger) this time.
Others in here may have asked some of these questions but i'm not sure if anyone can give a definitive answer ?
 
I wonder what the right track is though? If everythings based off Rudys trial then the focus should be on how to prove there wasnt two knives or more than one killer (egrams etc.).Nara and Toto need discredited all over again etc.
How to dismantle the court rulings from that trial which would bring to question...does every inch gained in the appeal disapear? C&V report out the window.

It wouldnt be the end of the world since the defence already has done it once. They might even be able to do it better (stronger) this time.
Others in here may have asked some of these questions but i'm not sure if anyone can give a definitive answer ?

This reads like a Guilty until proven innocent scenario again.
They can throw you in jail, gather a pile of 5000 scenarios that are based on gut instinct and fictional beliefs to state you are guilty....
then its the accused who has to prove innocence.
Now this time, they toss in the Rudy Fast Track verdict, yet another low level trial based on low level evidence.

It amazes me the Prosecutions case is built off-
Rudy Guede the burglar rapist murderer, still presents the lie, "someone else did it, Im a savior".
Toto the heroin junkie
Nara a feeble old lady who heard something and saw nothing.
etc..etc..

A Knife that was proven to have non blood DNA found on it, and in the uncleaned part starch DNA found.

oh well....everyone knows this list of everything..
 
The controls have been suppressed, no doubt in my mind.

A positive control (via a lab standard mix) was amplified for each PCR run. The positive control was then subjected to electrophoresis and generated an egram which was given a particular serial number, which we can identify in some cases or approximate.

The egram collection bears a range of sequential bates stamps, that likely corresponds with the order in which they were submitted to the paper court file. In all cases, the egram bearing the serial number that would correspond to the positive control is absent from the bates-stamped egram collection.

Well all this would be available in the EDF's. Not just positive controls but also negative controls which would be the more important data concerning contamination. The positive controls confirm that the machine is working properly...nothing more.

It is complete nonsense that at this point the defense does not have the complete data files of the lab...to include the EDF's which could then be used to produce the complete picture of exactly what happened. Then there could be NO missing eGrams...NO missing control data. Everything is time and date stamped and it is fairly secure...that is... not able to be easily manipulated AFAIK.

If it is the case that these egrams are missing as you state then this is evidence that the defense and the independent experts never had the EDF's.

And forget the knife. This test on the blade is invalid in every country in the world except apparently for Italy. No testing for such small amounts of sample was possible in 2007...at least not without special equipment, handling, training and test kits...none of which were available to Stefanoni.

The bra clasp is only somewhat more reliable except for the multiple contributors found on that hook portion....which in a logical, intelligent world would tell even the dumbest monkey that oppsss...somehow this item got CONTAMINATED! No other explanation. And yes this is also a low template number sample and the evidence was destroyed by the "experts" who stored it in the absolute worst and most incorrect way...and so it is destroyed and therefore UN-retestable...which also makes it .....INVALID...not that it was that valid to start with.

Forgets the guilters "science" not that we even need Guedes DNA to hang him. But why toss his? His DNA samples are not LTN/LCN versions collected and then destroyed in a one off test. His samples are large and incontestable and more importantly are unexplainable with any story since he did not belong there in MK bedroom or inside her body for that matter.

If the prosecutor wants to retest the knife and perhaps open it up...fine but the defense needs to demand an answer as to why the prosecution and Maresca both objected to this during the last appeal...and after they explain their "logic" then fine ...once again agree to the further testing. I say this with the least of confidence though since I know who has been in charge of this evidence during the interim.

If the SC wishes to redo the whole Massei trial then the defense would certainly have to prepare a more comprehensive appeal document. One which attacks the points that the SC (illegally) used to determine its result. Nara may not have seen anything but these DH's are using her as a time stamp when she never looked but only guessed at the time...and they are using her to prove that at least three people were involved in this murder when in fact she never bothered to look out a window...or if she did she saw zip! Time to do the sound tests that 48 Hours played with the Cilino guy.

For that matter ...time to get a wall climber up that wall and into that room...

Time to push for the evidence that shows a staged break-in. Not just words of police or Filomena...the defense should have crushed them on this topic...Why do the pictures reveal no glass on top of anything? How about because it was NEVER ON TOP! IN fact nothing indicates staging except for the ramblings of a crazy prosecutor. So go in the window...that window or one built to exact specs....this is easy not hard.

Stop the nonsense...5 AM is not the middle of the night and AK mother would want her to call in this situation (of discovering a break-in) at any hour. Stop allowing these logically deficient judges and jurors to get away with instance after instance of "stupid logic". It is enough. If the SC feels the English virgins need more review...fine...bring em in and start treating them as they deserve to be treated. Miss so and so...did you have sex while in Italy? Did you drink every day and night or just every night?

I would have already filed an appeal based on the SC decision to use Guedes separate conviction to make a judgement about this matter. That is just impossible...is there precedent anywhere in the world for this?

Finally someone needs to ask Mignini why he is talking to God about Frank Sfarzos case. Can anyone email the fat fu...errr prosecutor and get the details of any case in the system? Which this particular case confuses me. A prosecutor filed a case against Frank for X for something he reported in Y about Z but somehow Mignini and his court was harmed but then Mignini collects damages while the state covers the case for his side...except for his lawyer we can presume...:-) What a dirty corrupt people. They can destroy anyone they want...and it is as if a cat is toying with a mouse before he bites its head off...

Where is the CPJ? Where are these court documents? Does God have them? He might. He admits that he has a stolen thumb drive. Isn't it illegal to posses stolen property?
 
Last edited:
<snip>Finally someone needs to ask Mignini why he is talking to God about Frank Sfarzos case. Can anyone email the fat fu...errr prosecutor and get the details of any case in the system? Which this particular case confuses me. A prosecutor filed a case against Frank for X for something he reported in Y about Z but somehow Mignini and his court was harmed but then Mignini collects damages while the state covers the case for his side...except for his lawyer we can presume...:-) What a dirty corrupt people. They can destroy anyone they want...and it is as if a cat is toying with a mouse before he bites its head off...<snip>

For some reason, Ergon is heavily invested in seeing Frank prosecuted. He wrote a pamphlet-length post about him on this GroundReport article (and probably on others). It is almost entirely hearsay, with no documentation of his claims. Here is his take on the Mignini versus Sfarzo trial:

If I may answer, since we've been following Frank's activities for some time :)…

.…finally, justice has caught up to "Frank Sfarzo". He will be facing the first of his trials, charged with calunnia or criminal libel of a prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, through his blog "Perugia Shock"…..

We have quite a dossier on Frank Sfarzo, published mostly on Perugia Murder File Net but also Org. This has been passed on to the Italian authorities, who had not been aware of the full extent of his activities…..
I have no idea what G-Man thinks of this, but I think he would like to avoid thinking of this, or being tied to Frank Sfarzo in any way :)….

....the major source of all lies against PM Mignini is one Frank Sfarzo, who is due in court as you say November 06 for the crime of calunnia against PM Mignini through the blog "Perugia Shock". Amazing to see the same charge that got Amanda Knox a sentence now being applied to him...

If you can't find me here, I will be at Perugia Murder File Net posting as "Ergon".
 
Last edited:
I guess it depends on what new evidence is ordered up. New knife blade tests? New computer evidence from Sollecito? Prosecution finally compelled to produce suppressed lab records?
I would imagine that the appeal documents remain the same as the first appeal.
Wouldn’t the defence teams have to submit a formal request to the appeal court for the items such as new computer evidence, especially if it is not in the original appeal?
 
a disgrace

Well all this would be available in the EDF's. Not just positive controls but also negative controls which would be the more important data concerning contamination. The positive controls confirm that the machine is working properly...nothing more.

It is complete nonsense that at this point the defense does not have the complete data files of the lab...to include the EDF's which could then be used to produce the complete picture of exactly what happened. Then there could be NO missing eGrams...NO missing control data. Everything is time and date stamped and it is fairly secure...that is... not able to be easily manipulated AFAIK.
It is a black mark against Italian criminal justice to do forensics in such a biased manner. Even people who think that AK and RS are guilty should be clamoring for the release of those files, because sooner or later other innocent people will be convicted on the basis of faulty DNA profiling.
 
Wouldn’t the defence teams have to submit a formal request to the appeal court for the items such as new computer evidence, especially if it is not in the original appeal?

Beats me. There used to be a time when people extolled the great virtue of the Italian system, because it afforded the defendant a second trial, de novo. If that were the case, then there would be no problem introducing new evidence in the second "trial".

But, I suppose this original meme has turned out to be not true, so perhaps there are restrictions on new evidence that can come in the second time around. That said, I have no idea why the computers, new knife analysis, and suppressed lab data should not be acquired and accepted by the court at this time. After all, the prosecution destroyed the computers, suppressed the lab data, and resisted the knife testing. Why should the prosecution benefit from its bad and unethical acts?
 
The positive controls confirm that the machine is working properly...nothing more.

Hold on there. Let's consider the positive controls for a second. Stefanoni had a lab standard called "STD 0.068", which I am assuming is a mix of known DNA template to a concentration of 68 picograms per milliliter. She would take 20 ml of this STD, and amplify via RT q-PCR, along with the rest of the field samples. She would then take the amplified standard and put it in the electrophoresis machine. She would get an egram. The egram should show a perfect profile of the of the lab standard.

But, what if we see extra stuff in the STD egram, i.e., peaks that don't belong to the STD donor? Doesn't that tell us that we have contamination? We shouldn't be able to see extra peaks, even if we magnify the egram all the way to the level of background noise, but what if we do?

I think that's why we don't have the STD egrams and/or the corresponding EDFs. Also, I think that's why we are missing a large number of egrams from plate no 365bis, which produced the egram for 36b (we have 757, 761, 770 and 771; are missing 758-760, and 762-769). Both the STD sample, and all of these missing samples effectively are controls, if we have the EDFS and can magnify them to the level that Stefanoni magnified 36b. What if they all produce artefacts and unknown secondary profiles? How reliable is plate 365bis?

Also, there might be negative controls, it's just that they might be at the beginning or end of the run sequences, in which case I haven't been able to identify them doing the gap analysis. Or, maybe Stefanoni thought that the STD control was good enough, for the reasons set forth above. IDK.
 
And why leave a few drops of blood on the sink and then lead the police right to them?

and why not bleach down the bathroom? why leave blood on the light switch.... its like trying to fight a superstition.

it doesn't matter, the ISC doesn't have time for all these details and thinking things out, they're already back logged enough with cases.
 
Last edited:
It is a black mark against Italian criminal justice to do forensics in such a biased manner. Even people who think that AK and RS are guilty should be clamoring for the release of those files, because sooner or later other innocent people will be convicted on the basis of faulty DNA profiling.

Agree. Also, let's be clear here. This isn't a simple case of failing to produce the right documents. This is situation where some documents/information helpful to the prosecution have been produced and at the same time the prosecution, having complete control over the files, has willfully suppressed other documents/information. Why? Well, it's simple: the documents hurt the prosecution. In the history of litigation, has anyone ever attempted to hide helpful documents (suggested answer: no)?
 
Last edited:
We shouldn't be able to see extra peaks, even if we magnify the egram all the way to the level of background noise, but what if we do?

Do we really know what & why the users/operators are not to magnify to the background noise level?

Its not just a standard of labs, its also the designers and manufacturers of the tool that specify not to do this. The reason is probably very solid, from a tool ability perspective, why they say not to look into the noise level area. Do not use peaks below a certain RFU as its marginal. Self created by the tool itself possibly.

I was under the impression this extra-magnification born the comment from C&V, "anyones DNA can be found if we do this" which was in relate to using the noisy level area of the tools ability. in lamens terms its garbage data per the tool manufacturer and everyone knows it except the sleeping jurors. I highly doubt the ISC looked into anything this deeply too.

But if the ISC had only a couple hours to review the entire case, what can one expect.
 
The reason Amanda left the blood drops was so that she could control the investigation. They planned to have Filomena "discover" the crime but the PP showed up. Even though Raf called his sister and 112 before the PP arrived it is paramount to ignore these facts.

This case is groundbreaking in ignoring all sorts facts and inconsistencies.

I don't see why you people can't understand that Amanda thought that she could manipulate the roommates and the police. She did after all have complete command of the language and had totally familiarized herself with Italian police procedures by watching CSI-Italy a little known offshoot of the original.

The way she controlled the situation was to leave the proximity to Meredith's door. She also resisted leaving the cottage and ran into Meredith's room and touched everything as well as spitting which she explained as a Seattle behavior meant to remove the bad juju from the room.

Okay, it's early here and a high of 90 is predicted. Obviously since she saw the blood drops before the police arrived she could have wiped them away in seconds and flushed the TP down the toilet. In a minute or two she could have used a sponge, soap, hot water and pretty much removed the spots even from luminol detection. The break-in would be plenty enough for them to call the police.

The biggest mystery in this regard is why they wouldn't just have left the cottage after their morning check-in and gone to Gubbio or why they didn't just go in the MK's room in the morning and find her, try to save her and call the police. They would have their prints of all sorts all over the room and blood on them as a result of going in and seeing if she were still alive.

The idea that AK thought she needed to control the investigation is ridiculous. The idea that she wanted Filomena to discover the murder is absurd. Did they think that after calling F that no one would remember they were there first?

The great mystery is how they could be so sure their prints and/or DNA wouldn't be found it the murder room. How could they so sure that they hadn't brought blood back to Raf's?
 
Do we really know what & why the users/operators are not to magnify to the background noise level?

Two things, I'm thinking. First, the closer you get to noise level, the less certainty you have for your peaks.

Second, it seems to me that the closer you get to noise level, the more likely that your profile is the result of contamination, simply because of the relative size of it--particularly if you have failed to employ LCN procedures.

Think about the mechanics of amplification for a minute. Amplification occurs in a non-linear fashion: initially, in the first cycles, not many copies are produced; then, there is a period where a lot of copies are produced; and then, in the later cycles, not many copies are produced (plateau). What was unusual about Stefanoni's lab is that, instead of amplifying everything at 28 or even 35 cycles, she amplified everything at 50 cycles, which means that successful amplifications went well into the plateau phase

If 36b successfully amplified, then it would have reached plateau well before the 50th (last) cycle. In other words, at a certain point, say 35 cycles, 36b should have reached the CT number, which means that it would have had about the same quantity of DNA that all of the other successfully-amplified cycles had when they crossed the CT threshold (say at 28 Ct). After crossing the CT threshold, the plateau occurs, which suggests to me that any successfully-amplified samples should have gone into electrophoresis with about the same concentrations of DNA as 36b, since everything should have reached the Ct threshold and then plateaued.

Therefore, there is no reason for the RFU strength of 36b to have been so low in comparison to other samples: even if was LCN going into amplification, it should not have been LCN after 50 cycles of amplification; rather, it should have had around the same number of copies as the rest of the samples that successfully amplified below 50 cycles. Thus, weakness of the 36b signal suggests to me that the 36b profile is not from the amplification process, but rather somewhere outside of the amplification process, i.e., contamination.

A 17 Ct amplification started out with 10,000,000 copies of the DNA
A 37 Ct amplification started out with one copy of the DNA
But, at 50 cycles, the difference in quantity should not be as large, due to the plateauing.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom