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Seconded.
In fact I think this is actually the first Mormon in the forum to say this.
Kudos and respect!
 
skyrider44 said:
My comments have centered on the BoM. The Book of Abraham poses extremely difficult challenges for LDS apologists. There is no question about that. Moreover, it must be admitted that those challenges cast a shadow on the BoM.
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The Book of Moron and the Book of Abraham can be taken as separate issues. I would expect it would cause some Mormons discomfort to think the first was legitimate and the second, not so much, but they can be uncoupled.

I do not see a way to do it, though, without disparaging the messenger. I'm not saying the funnerary translation would need to be an outright con by Joseph Smith; he could have just been self-deluded by what (allegedly) happened with the plates.

Wouldn't that also raise some issues with that whole direct link to God thing? Are there other ways to accept the BoM as inspired, but not the BoA, in a way that is less damaging to some core LDS principles?
 
jsfisher said:
The Book of Moron and the Book of Abraham can be taken as separate issues. I would expect it would cause some Mormons discomfort to think the first was legitimate and the second, not so much, but they can be uncoupled.

I do not see a way to do it, though, without disparaging the messenger. I'm not saying the funnerary translation would need to be an outright con by Joseph Smith; he could have just been self-deluded by what (allegedly) happened with the plates.

Wouldn't that also raise some issues with that whole direct link to God thing? Are there other ways to accept the BoM as inspired, but not the BoA, in a way that is less damaging to some core LDS principles?
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There are a number of non-LDS Mormon groups that believe exactly that, including Community of Christ (nee RLDS).
 
Let's be honest with each other.

Human Beings, many times, are happy to believe in beautiful, romantic, life changing, ego enhancing illusions and delusions, if it makes them feel better about themselves and their lives, rather than accept reality as it is.
 
deaman said:
Let's be honest with each other.

Human Beings, many times, are happy to believe in beautiful, romantic, life changing, ego enhancing illusions and delusions, if it makes them feel better about themselves and their lives, rather than accept reality as it is.
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Gord examines his signature very carefully.

Sighs loudly.

 
RandFan said:
It should be noted that Pup's wife (I forgot her name), was very objective and honest about numerous discrepancies though she remains a believer in Mormonism.

Her name is Cat Tale.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8924880#post8924880
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From your link
...It is also my own belief, that the Church is currently standing on the hope of new archaeological evidence that will prove conclusively where the events of the Book of Mormon actually happened, and once that's established they will find for more evidence.
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The lady's view on the BoA, IIRC, was that the spiritual value of the BoA was such the actual source was irrelevant.

So I'll stand by the claim skyrider44 is the first Mormon here to admit the difficulties the BoA represent to the LDS.
 
pakeha said:
From your link


The lady's view on the BoA, IIRC, was that the spiritual value of the BoA was such the actual source was irrelevant.

So I'll stand by the claim skyrider44 is the first Mormon here to admit the difficulties the BoA represent to the LDS.
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I understand. But I think it fair to note that Cat was quite willing to make a number of concessions and was in stark contrast to Janendele on a number of key issues. That link was the first one I found of hers and simply a means to identify her.
 
Janadele said:
The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price... my favourite Scripture :)
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
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Yes, yes, we know. But I'm curious - what do you think of skyrider's response below (emphasis mine)?

skyrider44 said:
My comments have centered on the BoM. The Book of Abraham poses extremely difficult challenges for LDS apologists. There is no question about that. Moreover, it must be admitted that those challenges cast a shadow on the BoM.
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Janadele said:
The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price... my favourite Scripture :)
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
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It's official "Mormon" scripture. It's not accepted in the Protestant, Eastern Orthodox or Catholic canon. Atheists do not accept any sacred text as being "official" in any capacity. It is simply mythology or fraud.

I don't see what your predilections have to do with anything. However, I'm glad you got to repeat your opinion, again.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Gord examines his signature very carefully.

Sighs loudly.
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"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe."

Yours is one of the sign off lines I totally agreed with, and felt it's truthful gravity, the first time I read it. I really love the line.

I feel indebted to you for putting up such a great thought by the fabulous Phillip K. Dick. (My first wife actually worked for him for a while.)

Anyways, I totally agree with the sentiment.

I wonder how others feel about what that line says, and means?
 
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Janadele said:
The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price... my favourite Scripture :)
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
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How do you feel about an obvious fraud being included as official scripture?

How do you reconcile being told to trust something that is an obvious and transparent forgery?
 
RandFan said:
I understand. But I think it fair to note that Cat was quite willing to make a number of concessions and was in stark contrast to Janendele on a number of key issues. That link was the first one I found of hers and simply a means to identify her.
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II see your point.
I was of the same opinion til the lady refused to engage on the subject of the BoA.
Having said that, I respect and defend anyone's right to believe what they like.


Janadele said:
The Pearl of Great Price is official Scripture and therefore official Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng
The Book of Abraham is a part of the Pearl of Great Price... my favourite Scripture :)
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
Click to expand...

Yes, this was your reply when I questioned the errors in the first verses of the BoA, remember?
 
Cleon said:
Yes, yes, we know. But I'm curious - what do you think of skyrider's response below (emphasis mine)?
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I did not mean to criticize or otherwise demean Janadele when I made my comment. We are long-time cyberspace friends, and I admire and respect her.

I remain a faithful, lifelong Latter-day Saint even while acknowledging difficulties involving my faith's sacred works. If those difficulties did not exist, why would the Church find it expedient to mount a multi-faceted apologetic effort?

Critics fail to point out--in the spirit of fairness--that those difficulties are at least mitigated by the remarkable spiritual insight found in certain passages of the BoM and the BA. The internal consistency of the BoM is, by itself, a marvel, virtually astonishing (and achieved without benefit of computerized word processing). Small wonder that Shakespearean expert Harold Bloom called Joseph Smith a "religious genius."

One more thought to consider: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God" --Ninth Article of Faith
 
skyrider44 said:
Critics fail to point out--in the spirit of fairness--that those difficulties are at least mitigated by the remarkable spiritual insight found in certain passages of the BoM and the BA.
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The last time you made this claim I asked for an example. I'm still waiting.
 
skyrider44 said:
Critics fail to point out--in the spirit of fairness--that those difficulties are at least mitigated by the remarkable spiritual insight found in certain passages of the BoM and the BA.
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Many works of fiction could be said to contain "remarkable spiritual insight." That doesn't mean they deserve to be treated as anything other than works of fiction.
 
skyrider44 said:
Critics fail to point out--in the spirit of fairness--that those difficulties are at least mitigated by the remarkable spiritual insight found in certain passages of the BoM and the BA.
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That insight is going to be highly personal. I never found any insight in any of the Mormon holy texts.

Sighting their spiritual value as a mitigating factor with regard to their dubious origins is not a useful defense unless one is speaking to the faithful. It's an apologetic argument that reassures Mormons, but is meaningless to non-Mormons or Mormons who are struggling with difficult questions. What spiritual insights can you get from the Mormon holy texts you can't get from, for example, Buddhism Without Beliefs?

skyrider44 said:
The internal consistency of the BoM is, by itself, a marvel, virtually astonishing (and achieved without benefit of computerized word processing).
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Not really, as the dominant theory on its authorship is not that it was compiled by numerous writers as implied by the text, but written completely by Smith himself. Your mention of computerized word processing is perplexing, as you don't need a word processor to achieve internal consistency in a story. Clarity of thought, some proofreading and basic editing can achieve the same results. A few contradictions have crept through however.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/contra/by_name.html

Periodic editing and updated editions certainly helps maintain the illusion of internal consistency.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/changes/long.html

skyrider44 said:
Small wonder that Shakespearean expert Harold Bloom called Joseph Smith a "religious genius."
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You might want to go back and read up on Bloom's "Praise" of Smith. Being called a better con artist than the existing Protestant denominations isn't exactly a compliment. His "praise" was part of a larger discussion regarding the various Protestant splinter groups that originated in the Americas. It was more rah-rah about American ingenuity than anything strictly complimentary about Smith.

His actual opinion of the LDS is rather poor.

MormonVoices, a group associated with Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research, included Bloom on its Top Ten Anti-Mormon Statements of 2011 list for stating "The current head of the Mormon Church, Thomas S. Monson, known to his followers as 'prophet, seer and revelator,' is indistinguishable from the secular plutocratic oligarchs who exercise power in our supposed democracy".
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