Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[Garrison]

No, it didn't.

And if it did that would hardly explain the systems in place in Europe and Asia. Malcolm's argument still doesn't see to rise above a few examples of self taught geniuses and a grudge against teaching unions.

 

[Border Reiver]

A law is a threat by a government

A law is a rule made by a legislative body.

[/Quote]to kidnap (arrest), [/quote]

Kidnapping is the forcible deprivation of liberty without legal justification. An arrest made by a police officer either with a warrant, or where reasonable and probable grounds exist is made with legal authority, and is therefore NOT kidnapping.

assault (subdue),

Assault is the application of force to a person without their consent, and without right of law.

and forcibly inoculate with HIV (imprison) someone,

Imprisonment is the deprivation of a person's liberty with judical authority.

under specified circumstances. Parents who violate educational neglect statutes (who do not qualify as homeschoolers and who refuse to send their kids to school) risk arrest.

What education statute gives judicial penalties for failing to register the child? In Canada and Alaska, the statutes are pretty explicit about the requirements for homeschooling - you must state that you are doing so if asked otherwise all you have to do is NOT register your child for school.

If they fail to appear in court, cops will come after them. If they resist, police will subdue them.

Now, what state imposes a criminal penalty for not registering a child for school? Child neglect takes a lot more than simply not registering a child for school.

If they resist effectively, police will kill them.

no, if they resist effectively, they would get their way, and still be alive to raise there kids. Ineffective resistance would would "the children are now wards of the State due to the death of the larents caused by their violent resistance to arrest."

Reiver left out "better-informed".

So I did. Doesn't make my statement false.

Markets institutionalize humility on the part of State actors. If a policy difference involves a matter of fact, where "what works?" is an empirical question, competitive markets will generate more information than will a State-monopoly enterprise. A State-monopoly enterprise is like an experiment with one treatment and no control, a retarded experimental design.

Since the education of children isNOT a monopoly, how does the above apply?

"Profit" is a bookkeeping term: the difference between total revenue and total costs. An organization that has no line in its balance sheet for "profit" must attribute all revenues to costs. This says nothing about the motives of the people in that organization

Bookkeeping is what businesses do to stay in business. If it's not profitable, they will likely not do it.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Wait, are you seriously using two of the Marquis de Sade's 18th Century novels as part of your argument against 21st Century public schooling in America? Wow...

The point remains: the belief that a benevolent government "represents" something called "the will of the people" or "society" makes as much sense
as the belief that the 18th century Church hierarchy "represented" the will of a benevolent God. Licentious, corrupt clergy appear often in De Sade's novels for a reason. They personify the same attitude toward the public interest as this guy, this guy, and this ... person.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

A law is a rule made by a legislative body.

to kidnap (arrest),

Kidnapping is the forcible deprivation of liberty without legal justification. An arrest made by a police officer either with a warrant, or where reasonable and probable grounds exist is made with legal authority, and is therefore NOT kidnapping.

All that distinguishes extortion from taxation and kidnapping from arrest is that with taxation and arrest, the perpetrators work for the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in the locality of the act.

 

[RandFan]

The point remains: the belief that a benevolent government "represents" something called "the will of the people" or "society" makes as much sense.

So you are saying that democracies are the same as dictatorships? If you honestly don't believe that citizens have any ability to affect change then why are you here?

 

[RandFan]

All that distinguishes extortion from taxation and kidnapping from arrest is that with taxation and arrest, the perpetrators work for the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in the locality of the act.

So taxation to pay for a military is extortion and those who do not pay that taxation are kidnapped by the government.

How many nations don't collect taxes? How many nations don't have a police force or enforce laws? Somalia is probably the closest to that ideal.

 

[bruto]

The point remains: the belief that a benevolent government "represents" something called "the will of the people" or "society" makes as much sense
as the belief that the 18th century Church hierarchy "represented" the will of a benevolent God. Licentious, corrupt clergy appear often in De Sade's novels for a reason. They personify the same attitude toward the public interest as this guy, this guy, and this ... person.

Yet that's what you say you believe - the argument for the public good - when government makes choices on defense, policing, road building and public works, and just about everything except for education.

I suppose it's hopeless, but even acknowledging that the Catholic clergy of de Sade's time were often corrupt and licentious, and even acknowledging that no church should have the temporal power the Catholic Church once did, is it not a wee bit possible that Mr. de Sade was not entirely interested in accuracy and proportion? There is often social commentary in fiction, but some of us might consider it a poor choice for argument, given that verisimilitude is not always its top priority.

There is, of course, another tiny little difference you seem to omit. The will of the people may be hard to pin down at times, as is the will of God, but the people do certainly exist, a luxury not enjoyed by any deity. That difference does not serve your parallel well.

 

[ehcks]

All that distinguishes extortion from taxation and kidnapping from arrest is that with taxation and arrest, the perpetrators work for the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in the locality of the act.

No, what distinguishes them is that we live in a democracy where the laws that create taxes and that allow the police to perform arrests were voted upon by the people of the country.

You agree to the laws of the country you live in by choosing to continue to live in that country. If you do not like these laws, your choices are to vote against them and accept them if/when you don't get them repealed, or leave.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Yet that's what you say you believe - the argument for the public good - when government makes choices on defense, policing, road building and public works, and just about everything except for education.

That's funny! People around here mistake me for a libertarian.

 

[bruto]

No, what distinguishes them is that we live in a democracy where the laws that create taxes and that allow the police to perform arrests were voted upon by the people of the country.

You agree to the laws of the country you live in by choosing to continue to live in that country. If you do not like these laws, your choices are to vote against them and accept them if/when you don't get them repealed, or leave.

I would add that there is a third honorable choice, which is civil disobedience.

 

[ehcks]

I would add that there is a third honorable choice, which is civil disobedience.

Well, yes, but that goes beyond the simple disagreement of "don't like."

Though I suppose if he thinks all children are sent into slavery for 13 years, he should be doing more than ranting on a small internet forum.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

No, what distinguishes them is that we live in a democracy where the laws that create taxes and that allow the police to perform arrests were voted upon by the people of the country.

Not normally. We elect people whom we barely know. In many districts, voters, who have dozens of concerns, choose between a few primary candidates and then between two general election candidates. There is no way the result represents the preferences of the voters. It's like voting on the person who will determine the ONE size of shoes we all must wear, and the ONE style and color of clothing we all must wear, and the ONE diet we all must eat. And because the process is "democratic", control freaks imagine the process must outperform an unsubsidized, minimally-regulated market in education services, shoes, and food. Russia (1917-1991) proved otherwise.

You agree to the laws of the country you live in by choosing to continue to live in that country. If you do not like these laws, your choices are to vote against them and accept them if/when you don't get them repealed, or leave.

Right. And while I live here, I will argue the merits of taking issues like shoe size, diet, clothing color, and education out of the government's hands.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Well, yes, but that goes beyond the simple disagreement of "don't like."

Though I suppose if he thinks all children are sent into slavery for 13 years, he should be doing more than ranting on a small internet forum.

What would you suggest?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So taxation to pay for a military is extortion and those who do not pay that taxation are kidnapped by the government.

To recognize that is not to make a value judgment.

How many nations don't collect taxes? How many nations don't have a police force or enforce laws? Somalia is probably the closest to that ideal.

Who advances that "ideal"?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Not normally. We elect people whom we barely know. In many districts, voters, who have dozens of concerns, choose between a few primary candidates and then between two general election candidates. There is no way the result represents the preferences of the voters. It's like voting on the person who will determine the ONE size of shoes we all must wear, and the ONE style and color of clothing we all must wear, and the ONE diet we all must eat. And because the process is "democratic", control freaks imagine the process must outperform an unsubsidized, minimally-regulated market in education services, shoes, and food. Russia (1917-1991) proved otherwise. Right. And while I live here, I will argue the merits of taking issues like shoe size, diet, clothing color, and education out of the government's hands.

Good thing none of the western democracies do any of these things, nor do any of the posters here suggest it be implemented.
While the governments do not dictate what size shoes must be worn, they do force certain standards of quality on what shoes are allowed to be sold, and try to enforce brand standards.
While no government dictates what colour of clothing must be worn, they do enforce standards to prevent your clothing being made with colouring agents that are cheap but poisonous.
While no government dictates our diet, they do enforce standards to prevent toxic, rotten or mislabelled food from being sold.
While no government dictates what the exact form of eductation must be, they do force everyone to send their children to receive an education and enforce standards on those educating.

As for the 'cartel' accusation you keep making. How exactly does this so called cartel control the eductation of all western countries? And what is it's purpose? Because I doubt teachers in the US public school system make an exceptionally good living, especially when compared to the income of teachers of private schools. If high salary isn't their goal, what is?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

I expect educators, who make up the faculty and staff of the public schools here, to have expertise in the education business.

Which they do.

While no government dictates what the exact form of eductation must be, they do force everyone to send their children to receive an education and enforce standards on those educating.

Here.

Although there is very little high quality research on these topics, useful information for reforming education schools came from the massive review undertaken by the National Mathematics Advisory Panel for its report in 2008.
It found no relationship between student achievement and traditional teacher education programs, certification status, and mentoring and induction programs. That means that teachers who have completed a traditional teacher preparation program, hold a teaching license, and have participated in an induction program get no higher student performance on average than other teachers.
Researchers have found no relationship between student achievement and master’s degree programs in education, most of which are for those already holding a teaching license from an undergraduate program.
In addition, the Panel found almost no evidence that professional development programs increase student achievement, whether or not they increase teachers’ knowledge of the subject they teach. Nor is student achievement related to whether prospective teachers graduate from a traditional teacher education program or an alternative program.

Colleges of Education have been peddling fraudulent credentials for decades. The State-monopoly school system depends, in part, on beclouding the political discussion with the mystique of expertise in education (aside from subject-area competence). Otherwise, people might question the wisdom of taking children from parents, and voters might wonder why they pay extra for certified professional teachers.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Here.Colleges of Education have been peddling fraudulent credentials for decades. The State-monopoly school system depends, in part, on beclouding the political discussion with the mystique of expertise in education (aside from subject-area competence). Otherwise, people might question the wisdom of taking children from parents, and voters might wonder why they pay extra for certified professional teachers.

But does it also compare the difference between the effects of those taught by people who DO have subject-area competence (which a teacher must have) versus those taught by parents who do not have the subject-area competence?
And does the study take into account the people who were subject area competent but were unable to stand in front of a class and thus stopped teaching after a few months? (a very common occurrence with new teachers)

Nor does this change the fact that children have to pass a certain set of government designed tests in order to get any diploma.
Nor the fact that there is a comprehensive and comparable set of things that all children in a country have to learn.
Both of these things would vanish without government standards, which in the short term might save some money, but in the long term would hurt the economy as each company then needs to start checking each diploma for it's worth.

One of your complaints also seems to be that individual control is removed. Yet why should individual control be a good thing?
No company asks each and every employee to vet every management decision.
No private school anywhere consults the parents about every single part of the curriculum.
Do you advocate that this should change too?

 

[RandFan]

That's funny! People around here mistake me for a libertarian.

That's funny, you didn't respond substantively to the question. Do you or do you not think that there should be a government and do you or do you not believe that it is appropriate for the government to levy taxes to pay for the military? Yes? No?

 

[RandFan]

To recognize that is not to make a value judgment.

Then why the loaded words and why even mention it? What's the point? If claims is absent any value then why should we care?

I claim that my government does commit crimes. Bush, Cheney and quite possibly Obama have committed crimes. I think there should be a special prosecutor to investigate all 3. Extraordinary rendition, torture, extra judicial killing, these are serious matters and I don't say that lightly.

Another thing I don't do is call something I personally support "extortion and kidnapping". IIRC, you actually do support taxation and government enforcement of taxes when it comes to the military. If that is the case then what is your point?

Who advances that "ideal"?

If you are not then why mention it? What are we supposed to do with your information? Extortion and kidnapping are very serious crimes. If the government is extorting people and kidnapping them then that is a very bad thing.

 

[Belz...]

Just as much as "the government" in a totalitarian regime exercises control. In any case, people who draw paychecks from an account in the government's name make and execute policy. In a democracy, these people "represent" taxpayers and voters about as well as the French Catholic hierarchy "represented" God's will. I recommend De Sade's Justine and Juliette.

Einstein, De Sade. How about Plato and Hammurabi, to round things up ?