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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I'm not saying this to be rude or provocative, CoulsdonUK, it is out of genuine perplexity...

Why then in heaven's name did you claim that the H&Z verdict was reversed on issues of law? Do you have any idea how silly this sounds if someone goes back and reads how this thread started?
I have no ego whilst posting so I am not concerned about how I look to others.

I do recall reading the translated motivations along the prosecutions appeal and that criminal penal codes where quoted throughout both documents, but I am not going to waste time going through and plucking extracts or surf the net to win an argument here, it makes no difference to the ongoing process.

Draw whatever conclusion you wish, I'll survive.
 
Bill Williams said:
I'm not saying this to be rude or provocative, CoulsdonUK, it is out of genuine perplexity...

Why then in heaven's name did you claim that the H&Z verdict was reversed on issues of law? Do you have any idea how silly this sounds if someone goes back and reads how this thread started?

I have no ego whilst posting so I am not concerned about how I look to others.

I do recall reading the translated motivations along the prosecutions appeal and that criminal penal codes where quoted throughout both documents, but I am not going to waste time going through and plucking extracts or surf the net to win an argument here, it makes no difference to the ongoing process.

Draw whatever conclusion you wish, I'll survive.
Fair enough.

I am strangely relieved to hear that you will survive! I was worried for a second.

Apologies for any "tone" to my post.
 
The context for me is the ruling of the Supreme Court, there will be a new trial so it is not a personal opinion or assertion as you put it but a simple fact of events.

Clearly the Supreme Court had a different interpretation of its role than the one you posted.

As many have said if there were a guilty verdict and the Supreme Court signed off on the motivations the next stage I assume from Raffaele and Amanda’s point of view would be to appeal to the ECHR and maybe then points you are making now would be used in such an appeal, but all this assumes a guilty verdict in the next trial.

I do not believe the Supreme Court are saying the next verdict must be guilty, I believe they are saying review all evidence provide meaningful legal arguments in the form of a motivation for any verdict.

Sorry, this is completely vacuous. Earlier, you made an assertion about the "poor legal standard" in the Hellman-Zanetti report. I have now pointed out that the ISC over-ruled them by challenging their interpretation of the evidence, not law.

So you are wrong to claim that "legal standard" had anything to do with the latest decision, and you can't cover it up by speculating that the ISC "interprets" their role as one of fact-finding. Can you not see how frustrating it is to try to engage with you, when it seems you refuse ever to offer any analysis of any kind?
 
Hey, "COULSDON";

do you happen to know exactly how many millions are on the line here?

If not 'exactly', then perhaps a 'ball-park' figure?

Let me pre-empt your answer;

you have no idea, nor have you ever given any consideration to the multi-million-Euro "awards" associated with the prosecution of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Of course you haven't. God forbid.
 
Sorry, this is completely vacuous. Earlier, you made an assertion about the "poor legal standard" in the Hellman-Zanetti report. I have now pointed out that the ISC over-ruled them by challenging their interpretation of the evidence, not law.
So you are wrong to claim that "legal standard" had anything to do with the latest decision, and you can't cover it up by speculating that the ISC "interprets" their role as one of fact-finding. Can you not see how frustrating it is to try to engage with you, when it seems you refuse ever to offer any analysis of any kind?

No I don’t understand why you or anyone should be frustrated, as I just stated I recall seeing references to penal codes in the prosecutions appeal and the motivations document, but I am not going waste my time trawling through either document’s to satisfy your request.

Is it vacuous that the prosecution won all their points of appeal? However, if you are saying the highest court in Italy is wrong then that sounds to me like a legal precedent so I am sure others as well as myself would like you to know why you think this might be the case.
 
I do not believe the Supreme Court are saying the next verdict must be guilty, I believe they are saying review all evidence provide meaningful legal arguments in the form of a motivation for any verdict.
"In conclusion, the contested judgment is set aside for the many profiles highlighting the shortcomings, contradictions and manifest lack of logic, mentioned above. The Court of Review must therefore remedy, in its broadest powers of discretion, the critical aspects of argumentation, operating a global and unitary examination of evidence, through which examination is to be ascertained where the relative ambiguity of each piece of evidence can be resolved, as in the overall assessment each clue is added to and integrated with others. The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations, ranging from agreement on genetic option of death, to the modification of a program that initially contemplated only the involvement of the young English woman in an unwanted sex game, to the forcing of an erotic game pushed by the group, which blew up out of control."
 
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cuki pbs #36

I don't know anything about this. Sounds like more bull.

"The next day, Ossa watched while I wrote in my diary and then stepped up to my bed. “You’re writing horrible things about me in there!” she shouted, grabbing the notebook off my lap. Before I could react, she’d ripped out a huge chunk, tearing the pages to shreds."
 
"The next day, Ossa watched while I wrote in my diary and then stepped up to my bed. “You’re writing horrible things about me in there!” she shouted, grabbing the notebook off my lap. Before I could react, she’d ripped out a huge chunk, tearing the pages to shreds."

Are you as good-looking as Joey was?
 
No I don’t understand why you or anyone should be frustrated, as I just stated I recall seeing references to penal codes in the prosecutions appeal and the motivations document, but I am not going waste my time trawling through either document’s to satisfy your request.

You are ready to waste a considerable amount of time making shallow comments to the effect that courts made this or that decision, yet you call it a "waste of time" to seek to discuss what led to these decisions. I can't agree.
Is it vacuous that the prosecution won all their points of appeal?

It's your contribution to the discussion that is vacuous, not the deeply sinister decision of the ISC. It doesn't mean that the Hellman-Zanetti report was of a "poor legal standard", because the Supreme Court did not give legal reasons for deciding in favour of the prosecution. You have even admitted that you cannot give the supposed legal reasons.
However, if you are saying the highest court in Italy is wrong then that sounds to me like a legal precedent so I am sure others as well as myself would like you to know why you think this might be the case.

Lots of words saying nothing at all.
 
"The next day, Ossa watched while I wrote in my diary and then stepped up to my bed. “You’re writing horrible things about me in there!” she shouted, grabbing the notebook off my lap. Before I could react, she’d ripped out a huge chunk, tearing the pages to shreds."
Thanks. Google tells me that Ossa was a cellmate or something. So you want me to believe that Knox had an incriminating diary, and the cops let her take it to prison? I don't think so. She did have a prison diary. But that obviously would not have pages from October, since she wasn't in jail. No wonder the October pages were "ripped out."
 
The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations, ranging from agreement on genetic option of death, to the modification of a program that initially contemplated only the involvement of the young English woman in an unwanted sex game, to the forcing of an erotic game pushed by the group, which blew up out of control."
I'm sorry, but perhaps this should be removed to the Conspiracy Theory thread.

Who would have guessed. A country's supreme court staffed by a bunch of conspiracy loons. I have to admit, though, that this power of Osmosis of which they speak is perfectly suited to proving CT. Mostly because its unfalsifiable.
 
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"The next day, Ossa watched while I wrote in my diary and then stepped up to my bed. “You’re writing horrible things about me in there!” she shouted, grabbing the notebook off my lap. Before I could react, she’d ripped out a huge chunk, tearing the pages to shreds."

I'm not sure what this tells you other than that are some scary and unbalanced people in prison. What does it tell you?
 
halides1 said:
The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations, ranging from agreement on genetic option of death, to the modification of a program that initially contemplated only the involvement of the young English woman in an unwanted sex game, to the forcing of an erotic game pushed by the group, which blew up out of control."

I'm sorry, but perhaps this should be removed to the Conspiracy Theory thread.

Who would have guessed. A country's supreme court staffed by a bunch of conspiracy loons. I have to admit, though, that this power of Osmosis of which they speak is perfectly suited to proving CT. Mostly because its unfalsifiable.
Is not this, by itself, completely embarrassing?

Do guilters actually believe this? Does Italy, formally, actually believe this?

The key term is as Diocletus says - falsifiability. We all need to look up. If something is claimed which is in theory unfalsifiable, then it is bordering on religion - not law or science.

Regardless of anything else the ISC said in its motivations report to justify the March 26 2013 reversal of Hellmann, this alone shows why the H&Z acquittals were not reversed because the H&Z report was, "written to such a poor legal standard that the prosecution won every single point of appeal."

What the ISC is saying is that if you squint and hold your mouth funny, you'll be able to see something no one else sees.
 
"The next day, Ossa watched while I wrote in my diary and then stepped up to my bed. “You’re writing horrible things about me in there!” she shouted, grabbing the notebook off my lap. Before I could react, she’d ripped out a huge chunk, tearing the pages to shreds."

Oh, that diary. Yeah, what Diocletus said. Sheesh.
 
"In conclusion, the contested judgment is set aside for the many profiles highlighting the shortcomings, contradictions and manifest lack of logic, mentioned above. The Court of Review must therefore remedy, in its broadest powers of discretion, the critical aspects of argumentation, operating a global and unitary examination of evidence, through which examination is to be ascertained where the relative ambiguity of each piece of evidence can be resolved, as in the overall assessment each clue is added to and integrated with others. The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations, ranging from agreement on genetic option of death, to the modification of a program that initially contemplated only the involvement of the young English woman in an unwanted sex game, to the forcing of an erotic game pushed by the group, which blew up out of control."


I still think it is possible the court's meaning here is that there needs to be, as Wikipedia would say, disambiguation. The court may be saying that both the prosecution as well as the defense need finally and concretely to establish the legitimacy of their claims, so they finally and concretely can be accepted or rejected.

Having looked over the translation a little bit, I tend to agree with Coulsdon that the SC did point out some potential legal irregularities by the HZ court. The SC may have felt they had to comment on some of the problems with the acquittal ruling, but their ultimate hope is to put this thing to rest in a way that engenders fewer questions and objections in the future.

Someone (I can't remember where) suggested that the SC gave the legal guidelines from their decision to some clerk for the purpose of writing the motivations, and then the clerk, having little else to work with, just copied and pasted from the Massei ruling.
 
I still think it is possible the court's meaning here is that there needs to be, as Wikipedia would say, disambiguation. The court may be saying that both the prosecution as well as the defense need finally and concretely to establish the legitimacy of their claims, so they finally and concretely can be accepted or rejected.

Having looked over the translation a little bit, I tend to agree with Coulsdon that the SC did point out some potential legal irregularities by the HZ court. The SC may have felt they had to comment on some of the problems with the acquittal ruling, but their ultimate hope is to put this thing to rest in a way that engenders fewer questions and objections in the future.

Someone (I can't remember where) suggested that the SC gave the legal guidelines from their decision to some clerk for the purpose of writing the motivations, and then the clerk, having little else to work with, just copied and pasted from the Massei ruling.

There is reason to doubt this positive interpretation, Mary. I mean, did the ISC really simply send this back wanting (as someone else put it) 100 more pages in a Hellmann-like motivations report - fully expecting that they'll end us signing off on acquittals?

They could have signed off on Hellmann on March 26, sustaining the acquittals, and then used the motivations report to clean up the outstanding legal issues. I mean, are they really in the job-creation business in Italy - so that both Raffaele and Amanda have to spend another $1M, and the Kerchers have to wait another year before Italy tells them what happened to their kin?

I don't see it. The ISC did not quash the acquittals by criticizing both the prosecution and the defence - they quashed the acquittals mainly saying that Hellmann came to the wrong "facts" of the case. Also in the case of motive, they say that Massei essentially ruled the wrong way, too.

You see, I could buy this positive interpretation you put on it, if the ISC had simply left it at.....

osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations

Because THAT by itself could have meant they felt that Hellmann erred in procedure by not evaluating enough "facts" to properly come to ruling it an acquittal.....

....... instead they said that Hellmann made the wrong finding of fact in relation to Curatolo, Nara, and the motive. It is as simple as this. Hellmann heard Curatolo and disbelieved him. Hellmann heard Nara and disbelieved her. That's what fact-finding judges do - they hear the evidence and make a decision on its factuality.

It's not what the ISC does; if you believe what Italians say the ISC does. The ISC wants a reexamination of at least those three findings of fact and there is plenty of room to say that the ISC is directing the Florence court to come to a specific decision about it - or else the table tennis match continues....

... and the Kerchers get further uncertainty, and Knox and Sollecito spend more money - perhaps until they cave in and cop a plea for lack of funds.

Truly I wish the way you interpret it is true, Mary. It may have been true if the ISC had simply ruled on some sort of "osmotic" principle without the other comments about facts.

However, we will see. If the first thing the prosecutor does on Sept 30 is request that all charges against Knox and Sollecito be dropped for lack of evidence, I'll eat my hat and apologize to you profusely.

If in December or January a suddenly speedy Florence court once again acquits the pair, I'll eat YOUR hat.

I will not eat anyone's hat if the Florence court convicts them. That's what I think will happen, because Italy (for some weird reason) needs to win this one. For me, that's what the ISC is telegraphing.

But be still your gentle heart. I have not successfully predicted ANYTHING in relation to this.

I'm perfect!
image.w174h200f3.jpg
 
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