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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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I actually disagree with your usage of the non-quantitative and slightly emotive term "huge", Megalodon.

You are correct, it is non-quantitative and emotive. It's also correct, in my view. And as soon as my new article is submitted I can explain publicly why I'm getting particularly emotive about this crap these days.

Pick a number, Megalodon :D, i.e. there has been a X fold (and that is IMHO "huge") increase in freak weather events.

That depends on the weather event. There has been a more than 2-sigma deviation of pre-AGW arctic-sea ice summer minimum in the last decade (maybe more, can't be bothered to check right now). The trend is down. That's huge.

I look at the cited literature (e.g. in Is extreme weather caused by global warming?) and see they mention significant increases of freak weather events that are causing damage now and predicted increases that will cause even more damage in the future.

Significant has a precise statistical connotation that I'm not comfortable using without testing. Huge is a subjective word that is appropriate for an informal discussion, when I don't have the references or the time to test the data. It conveys both my opinion on the significance in a non-committal way and illustrates my emotional state regarding the subject.

I'm a huge fan of this word...

Freak weather events do have social and economic effects. The observed and predicted increases in the freak weather events do and will have more social and economic effects. That is why steps are needed to curb global warming.

As lomiller correctly pointed, "freak" is getting to be the new "normal". We now have to wait for the "new freak". Which is also a good name for a garage band.
 
As lomiller correctly pointed, "freak" is getting to be the new "normal". We now have to wait for the "new freak". Which is also a good name for a garage band.


Yup, and that should scare people. If a 1000 year event, that is now a 30 year event can kill tens of thousands of people what would the new 1000 or even 100 year event do?
Which is also a good name for a garage band.

lol
 
We’ve discussed this before but here is a paper on the subject. It’s not just the fact that climate is changing it’s the rate of change that is the real issue. This paper estimates the current rate of change is orders of magnitude greater than any point in the last 65 million years.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/486
Terrestrial ecosystems have encountered substantial warming over the past century, with temperatures increasing about twice as rapidly over land as over the oceans. Here, we review the likelihood of continued changes in terrestrial climate, including analyses of the Coupled Model Intercomparison Project global climate model ensemble. Inertia toward continued emissions creates potential 21st-century global warming that is comparable in magnitude to that of the largest global changes in the past 65 million years but is orders of magnitude more rapid. The rate of warming implies a velocity of climate change and required range shifts of up to several kilometers per year, raising the prospect of daunting challenges for ecosystems, especially in the context of extensive land use and degradation, changes in frequency and severity of extreme events, and interactions with other stresses.
 
All things being equal, the number of temperature records should be about as many high records as low records. In fact, they are running 3 to 1 in favour of high records. My simple logic leads me to conclude that 2 out of three high temperature records are the result of global warming.

Mmmh ... I'm afraid not, although those records go with the general picture of warming.

The most important element about it is not the proportion of record highs and lows -besidides many record low temperatures being also a consequence of global warming- but the frequency of records in one weather station.

As currently there aren't denialists here swarming around, we can talk as "complicated" as it is needed, and it's good to "remember" that a measurable random process of which is possible to get a record high or low value will show those record appearing in intervals increasingly long. I mean, if you repeatedly throw a thousand dice and sum the value of all of them you'll see the record high value to appear increasingly scarce. For instance, the first throw can get a 2963, first record high, the second throw 3069, new record high, the third an fourth ones 3063 and 2798, but the fifth can be 3145, a new record high. Before a thousand throws you'll perhaps have a record high of 3247 and you'll have to maybe wait until throw number 1845 to have a new record high of 3276, but then you'll have to wait until the 4104th repetition to get a new high, but I assure you that, unless you get by chance a read of 6000 or a little less, you'll see the new highs coming increasingly rarely.

When you take a weather station, a rural one for the sake of the argument, you may find patterns like this one:

record high temperature for July:

1886 26.2° (the year the station was settled)
1887 27.9°
1891 28.3°
1903 30.4°
1931 31.6°
1933 31.9°
1940 32.1°
1968 32.2°
1987 32.5°
1995 32.9°
2006 33.3°

For laymen this is telling nothing. They may even argue about some cycles, for instance, that the thirties and forties were very hot because of the sun and whatever they may say with a size 6 foot set on reality and the other foot, size 15, firmly grounded on wishful thinking. But the fact of repeatedly broken record highs without an increase in the interval length is a sign of warming. When that happens worldwide, covering 75 or 80% of the planet, it is an unequivocal sign of warming.

Of course, large regions may be not experiencing this pattern in a clear manner, for instance, the fabulous continent of Biblebeltia, and her inhabitants may claim that they are suffering record lows instead. Well, the matter is that record lows are also not so scarce as expected, so, what is it? cooling and warming simultaneously?

The fact is that mean temperature and weather variability are in increase worldwide, what is consistent with the current global warming process. As a consequence in many regions record lows look like those of a random process within a frame of stability. Variability make record lows more probable; warming make them more scarce. The result is headlines telling "the coolest X since 1941 (or 1968, or 1927)". They fail to reckon that, if climate is stable and weather is a random, noisy process, as new weather stations have been created in the last 30-80 years, they should be a flow of headlines telling "the coolest X ever". That hardly happen.
 
Does anyone know what to make of this? I'm a layman on the AGW issue, but I've basically subscribed to the line of thought that humans produce a lot of CO2, which can trap heat in the atmosphere. However, I've also long thought that 97% of papers which took a stance on AGW acknowledged that it was happening, but this page presents testimonies from some of these scientists who claim that the initial meta-analysis misrepresented their work:


http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientis

A look around the Popular Technology site shows it to be obviously agenda driven with some murky information elsewhere (the "Marijuana" page), but if these scientists truly feel that their work was misrepresented, it may have a valid case. Again, this obviously wouldn't falsify AGW, but I'd like to stop quoting the "97%" figure if it's in fact fraudulent.
 
They fail to reckon that, if climate is stable and weather is a random, noisy process, as new weather stations have been created in the last 30-80 years, they should be a flow of headlines telling "the coolest X ever". That hardly happen.

Here in Australia, we are getting plenty of "Warmest ever", along with some "Coolest since". Does that fit your logic?

For example
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/mar/01/australia-record-breaking-hottest-summer
 
Here in Australia, we are getting plenty of "Warmest ever", along with some "Coolest since". Does that fit your logic?

For example
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/mar/01/australia-record-breaking-hottest-summer

Yes, it is fully consistent with systemic warming.

We are also having here now those kind of records in the cold side. Typically here is something that is wrongly consider a proxy for cold: "snow ... last time was in ...". They love that, and snow it's so "youtubable" as you can see a happy family making a snowman with muddy snow -which will become a muddy puddle before 11 am-, unlike an image of a thermometer showing 41°, which is pretty dull cinematographically speaking . But the fact is that snow during June and July continue to be local events while record high temperatures are not only more frequent but regional. We have mosquito bites to prove that.
 
By the way, start thinking what you are going to argue when the denialist masses disembark here claiming that Arctic sea ice minimum extent was 1.7 million square kilometres more than the previous year's -and the largest in a bunch of years- and Arctic sea ice minimum volume was 35% higher than the previous year's, together with a (nearly) record Antarctic sea ice maximum extent and volume. They'll certainly come out with their usual propagandistic brainsores like "record Arctic ice wipes out decades of global warming", and similar bollocks.

I myself am waiting for the latest data in the global ocean heat content series as it appears the deep storage phase is about to slow down so a new step in the escalator might be expected for 2014 or 2015.

I recommend to pay attention to the Earth System Models of GFDL (CM3 code is about to be publicly released)
 
Does anyone know what to make of this? I'm a layman on the AGW issue, but I've basically subscribed to the line of thought that humans produce a lot of CO2, which can trap heat in the atmosphere. However, I've also long thought that 97% of papers which took a stance on AGW acknowledged that it was happening, but this page presents testimonies from some of these scientists who claim that the initial meta-analysis misrepresented their work:


http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientis

A look around the Popular Technology site shows it to be obviously agenda driven with some murky information elsewhere (the "Marijuana" page), but if these scientists truly feel that their work was misrepresented, it may have a valid case. Again, this obviously wouldn't falsify AGW, but I'd like to stop quoting the "97%" figure if it's in fact fraudulent.

Poptech is a former member of this site (he was banned following a temper tantrum after the "Cimategate" investigations failed to find anything wrong). He's basically one of the most prevalent liars on the denier blogosphere, in that he spams a lot of forums with his nonsense. His site is pretty small, though.

Like everything else he pushes, this argument is a lie as well. The 97% figure is fairly accurate, and is supported by the production of scientific papers. On Poptech's site, he also has a list of paper which he claims questions the scientific consensus. A couple of years ago, I took it upon myself to test the veracity of the list, and I picked three papers at random. Two where from denier John Christy published in Energy & Environment, and I quickly learned that this isn't a proper scientific magazine. The final one was from Eugenia Kalnay, who claimed in an email to me that her work was gravely misrepresented on Poptech's site. This makes his claim about the scientific consensus misrepresenting climatologists kind of ironic.
 
Does anyone know what to make of this? I'm a layman on the AGW issue, but I've basically subscribed to the line of thought that humans produce a lot of CO2, which can trap heat in the atmosphere. However, I've also long thought that 97% of papers which took a stance on AGW acknowledged that it was happening, but this page presents testimonies from some of these scientists who claim that the initial meta-analysis misrepresented their work:


http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientis

A look around the Popular Technology site shows it to be obviously agenda driven with some murky information elsewhere (the "Marijuana" page), but if these scientists truly feel that their work was misrepresented, it may have a valid case. Again, this obviously wouldn't falsify AGW, but I'd like to stop quoting the "97%" figure if it's in fact fraudulent.

One of the authors of the 97% paper replies to criticism here
http://www.skepticalscience.com/rebutting-new-tcp-myths-andrew-neil-richard-tol.html
 
We’ve discussed this before but here is a paper on the subject. It’s not just the fact that climate is changing it’s the rate of change that is the real issue. This paper estimates the current rate of change is orders of magnitude greater than any point in the last 65 million years.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/486

This one might make a good companion read:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ele.12144/pdf
Rates of projected climate change dramatically exceed past
rates of climatic niche evolution among vertebrate species


Abstract
A key question in predicting responses to anthropogenic climate change is: how quickly can species adapt to different climatic conditions? Here, we take a phylogenetic approach to this question. We use 17 time calibrated phylogenies representing the major tetrapod clades (amphibians, birds, crocodilians, mammals, squamates, turtles) and climatic data from distributions of > 500 extant species. We estimate rates of change based on differences in climatic variables between sister species and estimated times of their splitting. We compare these rates to predicted rates of climate change from 2000 to 2100. Our results are striking: matching projected changes for 2100 would require rates of niche evolution that are > 10 000 times faster than rates typically observed among species, for most variables and clades. Despite many caveats, our results suggest that adaptation to projected changes in the next 100 years would require rates that are largely unprecedented based on observed rates among vertebrate species.

(Full paper open source at above link)
 
By the way, start thinking what you are going to argue when the denialist masses disembark here claiming that Arctic sea ice minimum extent was 1.7 million square kilometres more than the previous year's -and the largest in a bunch of years- and Arctic sea ice minimum volume was 35% higher than the previous year's, together with a (nearly) record Antarctic sea ice maximum extent and volume. They'll certainly come out with their usual propagandistic brainsores like "record Arctic ice wipes out decades of global warming", and similar bollocks.

I myself am waiting for the latest data in the global ocean heat content series as it appears the deep storage phase is about to slow down so a new step in the escalator might be expected for 2014 or 2015.

I recommend to pay attention to the Earth System Models of GFDL (CM3 code is about to be publicly released)

Well, especially as upwards of 70% of what is currently considered "ice cap coverage" is more like a floating slushy accumulation, at least this time of year,...I don't think we'll see much more of the "rational denialism," it's pretty much down to the fringe of the fringe who have other dogs in the fight, that are doubling-down and jumping the denial sharknado.

(/metaphoric hugeosity)
 
Poptech is a former member of this site (he was banned following a temper tantrum after the "Cimategate" investigations failed to find anything wrong). He's basically one of the most prevalent liars on the denier blogosphere, in that he spams a lot of forums with his nonsense. His site is pretty small, though.

Like everything else he pushes, this argument is a lie as well. The 97% figure is fairly accurate, and is supported by the production of scientific papers. On Poptech's site, he also has a list of paper which he claims questions the scientific consensus. A couple of years ago, I took it upon myself to test the veracity of the list, and I picked three papers at random. Two where from denier John Christy published in Energy & Environment, and I quickly learned that this isn't a proper scientific magazine. The final one was from Eugenia Kalnay, who claimed in an email to me that her work was gravely misrepresented on Poptech's site. This makes his claim about the scientific consensus misrepresenting climatologists kind of ironic.

To say the least. Most of the "papers" he cited as challenging climate change came from this site. More, seemed to be simple searches for the word "uncertainty", but of course most of these that wee examined appeared to be arguing that climate change is occurring and simply used the word uncertainty in their treatment of error range. The reset were largely opinion pieces and blog posts rather than papers.


The really funny one, however, was the paper he found in Energy & Environment that argued global warming isn't caused by CO2 because the Sun is really a neutron star and that was causing climate change somehow. He never did remove it from his list because he said it was still scientific debate.
 
Yes, it is fully consistent with systemic warming.

We are also having here now those kind of records in the cold side. Typically here is something that is wrongly consider a proxy for cold: "snow ... last time was in ...". They love that, and snow it's so "youtubable" as you can see a happy family making a snowman with muddy snow -which will become a muddy puddle before 11 am-, unlike an image of a thermometer showing 41°, which is pretty dull cinematographically speaking . But the fact is that snow during June and July continue to be local events while record high temperatures are not only more frequent but regional. We have mosquito bites to prove that.
Having increases in cold records as well as hot records suggest that the variability has also increased as well as the mean. IIRC Prof Paul Nurse suggested this in the Horizon program where he also ripped James Delingpole to pieces. He sketched how a change in the mean shifted the distribution to the right, whereas an increase in variability reduced the height of the curve, and spread it out. The probability of record temperatures at each end of the curve is the integral of the curve (the area under it), so a higher mean and a higher viability can still result in some cold records, even though they are swamped.
 
Having increases in cold records as well as hot records suggest that the variability has also increased as well as the mean. IIRC Prof Paul Nurse suggested this in the Horizon program where he also ripped James Delingpole to pieces. He sketched how a change in the mean shifted the distribution to the right, whereas an increase in variability reduced the height of the curve, and spread it out. The probability of record temperatures at each end of the curve is the integral of the curve (the area under it), so a higher mean and a higher viability can still result in some cold records, even though they are swamped.
Hmmm You mean similar to how in the high desert you can die of heat stroke in the day, or die from hypothermia at night, while the average is still very hot, but on a climatic scale instead of a weather scale?

That would tend to support Savory's hypothesis that desertification of grasslands is a key component to what we are seeing with AGW. He claims all those microclimates and local weather conditions caused by desertification, added up world wide, are partly the cause of what we are seeing on a global scale. He claims restoring the functionality of the grassland ecosystems will both moderate extremes and lower the average temps of AGW. This by both sequestering carbon in the soil as humus and by the insulation effect of the increased biomass found in fully functioning grassland ecosystems.
 
Very much splitting hairs, but nonetheless right. It should have read "formerly freak events, now worryingly normal". Of course, we now have to wait for the new freak...
The term "differently normal" comes to mind. It means the new record doesn't beat the last one by more than it did the previous. That definition needs some work, but hopefully you get my drift :).

Soon every news program will have a Daily Weather Story slot : "Today in x, record y caused serious z amid increased omg and 911". Heck, it takes your mind off all the other stuff that's going on.
 
Does anyone know what to make of this? I'm a layman on the AGW issue, but I've basically subscribed to the line of thought that humans produce a lot of CO2, which can trap heat in the atmosphere. However, I've also long thought that 97% of papers which took a stance on AGW acknowledged that it was happening, but this page presents testimonies from some of these scientists who claim that the initial meta-analysis misrepresented their work:
I assume you get the term "meta-analysis" from PopTech (whose rabbit-hole I'm not going down), because it's inappropriate : a meta-analysis is an analysis of analyses (a sort of second-order analysis). This was a straightforward (so to speak) analysis, for which all data is readily available. The scientists who claimed their papers could have been graded as supportive of AGW fail to add that the papers of theirs which are included in the analysis do not rate them as supportive. In fact, their papers fall into the 3%. To all intents and puroposes they are the 3%.

A look around the Popular Technology site shows it to be obviously agenda driven ...
Good call, but not, you'll agree, a difficult one ;). The 97% is robust, and should be used as often as possible.

The denier energy being consumed defending their "no consensus" tactic is a boon in itself. They're getting old, they're dispirited (I'm sure that's not just subjective), there's no new blood to take up the torch, and this damned heat is debilitating, particularly for the old. Keep them frantic over this and they'll run out of juice all the sooner. There's no denying the Grim Reaper his harvest, and no reason not to chivvy him along in appropriate cases.

On top of everything else the Mann defamation case cannot be good for anxiety levels given the things which have been said over the years. Intemperate things. Malicious things. Actionable things? Perhaps, and what might the trial itself throw up? Will some defence slip lead to disclosure of emails, and the bizarre need to either claim rights of privacy or ... well, the alternative doesn't bear thinking about. No-one imagines for a moment their exploitation of stolen emails has taught them caution in their own camp; just look how easy it was to get Heatland to cough up the wood, nails and instructions for their own cruxifixion. These are not the sharpest tools in the box.
 
They're getting old, they're dispirited (I'm sure that's not just subjective), there's no new blood to take up the torch, and this damned heat is debilitating, particularly for the old. Keep them frantic over this and they'll run out of juice all the sooner. There's no denying the Grim Reaper his harvest...

i don't recall you being such an optimist in the old days, CapelDodger. :)

As currently there aren't denialists here swarming around, we can talk as "complicated" as it is needed, and it's good to "remember" that a measurable random process of which is possible to get a record high or low value will show those record appearing in intervals increasingly long.

doesn't this analogy suffer from being too white? as temperature observations seem to be correlated in time, perhaps a drunkards walk (or ornstein-uhlenbeck process) would be more appropriate? or the running sum of 1000 of your fairly thrown dice in a continuing series of throws (rather than the series of sums, each of 1000 independent throws)? series of new records are expected to come in clumps in that random process.

that analogy has its weaknesses too, of course. my point is merely that the independent identically distributed case, with "ever greater" times till new extrema is likely to prove misleading in geophysical examples. no?
 
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