Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Nessie]

Suspicious person <---> suspected criminal

Not the same thing.

Indeed, so in this case TM was a suspected criminal. We know that because of what GZ said during the call to the police. So it is not true when you said " Zimmerman never had the belief that Martin was a criminal." because he sure suspected him of being one.

My guess is you don't call the cops when you're going to take care of it yourself. And we know who called the cops, and who didn't.

Indeed, good guess. That shows the risks involved in following suspected criminals and how an untrained GZ made a complete mess of it and so he got assaulted and another died.

I really hope this incident puts off wannabe armed heroes from following suspect criminals and they remember what the police have to say on the matter, "OK we don't need you to do that".

 

[Nessie]

He said on the phone call what made him suspicious. And it wasn't break-ins. It was his mannerisms, the way he was walking and looking around.


........

That is not like you are describing what was said in the phone call.

Zimmerman "Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy...."

So straight away we know GZ was thinking about break ins and that was the reason he was phoning. He did not like the mannerisms of the youth and he thought such were connected to break ins. We get further clarification of that here.

Dispatcher "OK, he's just walking around the area…"

The dispatcher now shows he thinks he is dealing just with a suspect youth acting oddly as GZ had described "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something." But then GZ reminds the dispatcher what the actual issue is

Zimmerman "looking at all the houses."

So break ins figure highly in why GZ found TM suspicious and went after him. He was hoping to prevent a break in or catch a house breaker.

 

[WildCat]

30 feet? Do you realize how short that is? Ten big steps or a couple of seconds of pacing. Recalling your exact position even minutes after an event is difficult. We move constantly and don't even realize it. What difference would 30 feet make?

I've asked this repeatedly in this thread, good luck getting an answer.

And unfortunately for the prosecution the state's own witness said it was moving even with Martin on top of Zimmerman in a "ground and pound" position.

 

[Cylinder]

Please, don't just change the subject. Do you accept that George was at the tee when he was met by Joe Manalo and when he was placed in handcuffs by officer Tim Smith? Does anybody still contend that George was 30 feet south of the tee when these events occured?

No. OFC Smith was fairly specific that Zimmerman was contacted closer to Martin's body.

 

[WildCat]

Indeed, so in this case TM was a suspected criminal. We know that because of what GZ said during the call to the police.

No. GZ reported a suspicious person, not a suspected criminal. The latter would be what you do when you witness someone breaking into cars or houses and such.

 

[Dan O.]

No. OFC Smith was fairly specific that Zimmerman was contacted closer to Martin's body.

How close? If officer Smith were claiming that the contact was made closer to Zimmerman's body than to the tee then Officre Smith would by lying under oath and should be prosecuted for that. However, I reviewed the testimony and Officer Smith makes no such claim and at best says "Within feet".

Do you think you could get Officer Smith to clarify that he testified that he was closer to Trayvon's body when there is photographic evidence that could prove him wrong? If you think you can then go ahead and try. Find out what reality has to say when the lights are all on.

.
The evidence that contact was made at the tee comes from multiple witnesses including Joe who's testimony I quoted above. and at least two witnesses who drew diagrams showing George's movement.

Also, the second officer to arrive at the scene wrote in his initial report that when he drove up to the area he could see officer Smith with the suspect at gunpoint. This establishes the time frame when Smith and Zimmerman were seen, the location of the officer that saw them and the minimum distance south of the tee where line of sight would permit this view.


Now, what do you have to support your view? A misinterpretation of Smith's testimony durring cross examination. Statements from George who refuses to acknowledge that he was anywhere south of the tee so of course he leaves out the return trip. Do you have anything else? Anything at all?

 

[Dan O.]

30 feet? Do you realize how short that is? Ten big steps or a couple of seconds of pacing. Recalling your exact position even minutes after an event is difficult. We move constantly and don't even realize it. What difference would 30 feet make?

Do you accept that George walked back to the tee after shooting Trayvon? I'm not asking if George remembers it. We can't even ask George because he has a right to remain silent. What I am asking is for the posters in this thread to step up and accept what the evidence shows to be the truth or show cause for why this fact cannot be asserted.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

On the subject of where was Zimmerman when the officers arrived, we have Joe Manalo's testimony:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1306/28/cnr.07.html

DE LA RIONDA: Do you recall approximately when you came into contact with the defendant when he was walking towards you where approximately you would have had contact with him? And I'm going to move the arrow around and you tell me where to stop.

MANALO: A little higher.

DE LA RIONDA: Higher?

MANALO: At the T.

DE LA RIONDA: Right here?

MANALO: Yes.
​

-----

DE LA RIONDA: And is this the area approximately where you came into contact with the defendant, George Zimmerman?

MANALO: Yes.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. Near where the T is or the dog trash receptacle?

MANALO: Yes.
​

----

DE LA RIONDA: Do you recall the position that you would have taken this photograph? it shows the back of the defendant Mr. Zimmerman's head. Was he sitting down, standing up, or how was he?

MANALO: He was squatting.

DE LA RIONDA: Was that after the officers came?

MANALO: This was before.
​

I mentioned the photographic evidence in an earlier post. This photograph taken with George squatting on the sidewalk. In the background of that photo there is a clear view of one of the cracks in the sidewalk. There is enough detail to identify with certainty exactly which crack this is and thus identify exactly where George was at the time that photograph was taken.

Links to the video of your excepts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3hkvfvsw3Yc&t=588
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3hkvfvsw3Yc&t=668


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3hkvfvsw3Yc&t=903

DE LA RIONDA: What were you trying to show in that photograph, sir?

MANOLO: There was an object next to him. I didn't see any other objects on the ground other than the little flashlight on the beginning part of the T. It stood out.​

I agree JM said he contacted GZ closer to the Tee.

Officer Smith clearly said he contacted both JM and GZ a few feet away from TMs body.

JM never describes walking back toward the body, or walking with GZ, or moving at all.

Someone is wrong, or has omitted information.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

30 feet? Do you realize how short that is? Ten big steps or a couple of seconds of pacing. Recalling your exact position even minutes after an event is difficult. We move constantly and don't even realize it. What difference would 30 feet make?

Whether GZ returned to the Tee and either planted or dropped his car keys there after the fight, as opposed to before.

 

[Nessie]

No. GZ reported a suspicious person, not a suspected criminal. The latter would be what you do when you witness someone breaking into cars or houses and such.

We could trade definitions all day. GZ reported TM because there had been break ins and because in his opinion TM was acting suspiciously by looking at houses and supposedly being on drugs or something.

What never appears to have crossed GZ's mind is that his behaviour in following and watching was influencing TM"s behaviour. People do not like being followed and observed in the wat GZ did to TM. It causes all sorts of emotions from fear to anger. That is why the dispatcher asked are you following him and then said we dont need you to do that.

 

[Nessie]

No. GZ reported a suspicious person, not a suspected criminal. The latter would be what you do when you witness someone breaking into cars or houses and such.

So why did GZ start off the call saying "Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy,..."? GZ made a connection between TM and the break ins.

How he made that connection is here; "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about."......"looking at all the houses."

GZ believes he may have found a potential burglar and he now going to go after him. If he had just spotted an odd youth, why mention break ins and houses? If he had just spotted an odd youth, why phone the police and follow him at all? Is it a crime in Florida to be odd?

 

[bynmdsue]

Trayvon Martin’s hoodie became a nationwide symbol following his fatal shooting, and now the director of the Smithsonian’s National Museum of African American History wants the original.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...r-wants-trayvon-martins-hoodie/#ixzz2afXY29oY

The Teachable Moment must be taught even if it is a fiction. Will they include the bloody photos of Zimmerman's face?

 

[Cylinder]

Ben Kruidbos filed his wrongful termination suit today asking for (a reported) $5 million in damages and his job back. Kruidbos is the 4th District SAO IT Director that reported to the court that BDLR was withholding portions of the report his office generated on exculpatory evidence collected from Trayvon Martin's phone.

George Zimmerman is also expected to seek damages for his expenses in uncovering the evidence withheld from him by the state.

 

[KatieG]

There was no evidence withheld. The defense had it, they didn't try to open it by using the proper software. The guy did several illegal things and accessed things he didn't have the authority to do. He'll get nothing, as will GZ.

 

[Dan O.]

If Ben had released his information to the judge or some other official he would be protected by the whistle blower laws. But didn't he release this information directly to the defense?

 

[Cylinder]

Letter to Gov. Scott requesting a special prosecutor to investigate firing

Accordingly, the undersigned (on behalf of my client) formally and respectfully requests that you commission a State Attorney from another circuit to conduct an investigation as to whether or not the Office of the State Attorney for the 4th Judicial Circuit acted unlawfully in the termination of Mr. Kruidbos.

Kruidbos v Corey

Contrary to the provisions of Florida Statutes 92.57, KRUIDBOS was terminated by Defendant on Thursday July 11, 2013 in retaliation for having testified on June 6, 2013, pursuant to a subpoena, before the circuit court in and for Seminole County in State v. Zimmerman, Case No. 2012-001083-CFA. The nature of Plaintiff’s testimony related to the suspected violation by the State Attorney’s Office of its reciprocal discovery obligations under the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure, and under Florida and federal law. A copy of the subpoena is attached hereto as “Exhibit A”. A copy of the letter of termination is attached hereto as “Exhibit B”.

Kruidbos Whistleblower Complaint to OIG

Contrary to the provisions of Florida Statutes 112.3187, Mr. Kruidbos was the victim of retaliatory action by the SAO on Friday, July 11, 2013 when he was terminated from employment. Mr. Kruidbos was terminated for having testified (pursuant to a subpoena) before the circuit court in and for Seminole County, on June 6, 2013. The nature of his testimony related to the possible knowing violation, by the State of Florida (the SAO), of its reciprocal discovery obligations (under the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure, and under Florida and federal law) in a criminal prosecution. Such a violation falls within the inherent authority of the circuit court to sanction the conduct and actions of parties and attorneys before the court.

 

[Cylinder]

If Ben had released his information to the judge or some other official he would be protected by the whistle blower laws. But didn't he release this information directly to the defense?

Kruidbos did report the information to the court. First, he discussed it with his attorney as is his public employee right in Florida. His attorney had an obligation to the rule to notify Zimmerman. Zimmerman did not know where the information came from until the court was notified through his attorney, Mr. White.

 

[ABC10]

So you think that if you call 911 and tell them someone is following you and that you are in fear that they are going to "laugh at you and tell you to call them back if something serious happens". It's good to see you are applying critical thinking to this.

While I don't see a young black man who probably by and large views the police as enemies calling them in this circumstance, if he did, at a minimum I expect they have advised him to do something crazy , like, get in his home as fast as possible and wait for the police to be there. But it's safe to assume based on the time line he had little to no interest in doing that.

If blacks see the police as enemies, it is because of their thug culture.

 

[Dan O.]

Have you read that termination letter? It looks like Kruidbos is toast and White ought to be looking for an attorney to represent himself.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There was no evidence withheld. The defense had it, they didn't try to open it by using the proper software.

I believe the reports generated by the SAO contain discoverable information, and the reports themselves are discoverable.

Do you think it would be acceptable for one side to put thief information into an encrypted binary and then turn it over to the other side while offering to sell them the decryption key for one million dollars ?

"But your Honor, they had the data, it's not our problem if they can't read it. The software to read it is available, it's not our problem if they can't afford it..."

Do you think that is really the type of information exchange discovery process is meant to foster ?

Clearly the state attempted to skirt the rules and to not turn over data they felt would be damaging to their pitifully weak case.

The guy did several illegal things and accessed things he didn't have the authority to do. He'll get nothing, as will GZ.

Simple bald assertions don't cut it.