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Not as much as you'd expect, judging from some of the posters on this thread and other Mormons I've encountered online elsewhere.

Don't underestimate the human ability to ignore or rationalise inconvenient facts. If someone wants to believe something strongly enough they can always come up with explanations of contradictory evidence that are acceptable to them, if to nobody else.

In the large, I think it will fall on it's face eventually.

Recently, I invested in three identical backpacks to simply carry the nosh up the hills. Suitably equipped, we set forth. I stopped and turned to them and said "Hey, we look like mormons" Laughter ensued. They are eight and eleven. Even they are fully aware of the charicture.
 
Not as much as you'd expect, judging from some of the posters on this thread and other Mormons I've encountered online elsewhere.

Don't underestimate the human ability to ignore or rationalise inconvenient facts. If someone wants to believe something strongly enough they can always come up with explanations of contradictory evidence that are acceptable to them, if to nobody else.

I agree, many of the comments on the link say that they don't care about the truth of their religion since they're happy and have a nice life.
 
I agree, many of the comments on the link say that they don't care about the truth of their religion since they're happy and have a nice life.

Yes yet another version of Joseph Campbell's "Follow your bliss! Follow your bliss!" argument.
 
I agree, many of the comments on the link say that they don't care about the truth of their religion since they're happy and have a nice life.

Had a conversation with a Mormon yesterday that took an unexpected turn, but it's an example of the above.

Long story short, he was from Utah, just visiting some neighbors, and he started pressuring me to join, so I pressured him back to leave the church to give him a taste of his own medicine.

Him--You ought to give the church a try.
Me--Not interested.
Him--[more pressure]
Me--[after explaining I'd show him how he sounded] You really ought to leave the church.
Him--I can't do that.
Me--Why not? It'd be good for you.
Him--No, I can't do that. [At this point, I thought he'd go into the usual testimony of how true it was, the benefits of having God on your side, etc.] I've got too many family and friends who are members, my children are members, got people out on missions...

I still thought he was a jerk for continuing to pressure me to join when I said I wasn't interested and when I hadn't been pressuring him to leave the church (or even brought up religion before he did), but I was surprised how honest an answer it was.
 
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Had a conversation with a Mormon yesterday that took an unexpected turn, but it's an example of the above.

Long story short, he was from Utah, just visiting some neighbors, and he started pressuring me to join, so I pressured him back to leave the church to give him a taste of his own medicine.

Him--You ought to give the church a try.
Me--Not interested.
Him--[more pressure]
Me--[after explaining I'd show him how he sounded] You really ought to leave the church.
Him--I can't do that.
Me--Why not? It'd be good for you.
Him--No, I can't do that. [At this point, I thought he'd go into the usual testimony of how true it was, the benefits of having God on your side, etc.] I've got too many family and friends who are members, my children are members, got people out on missions...

I still thought he was a jerk for continuing to pressure me to join when I said I wasn't interested and when I hadn't been pressuring him to leave the church (or even brought up religion before he did), but I was surprised how honest an answer it was.

Once, when I was in my evangelical, just believe in god and toss out the baggage*, phase I was pressuring my brother in law and he told me that he didn't believe any of it but he wouldn't disrupt his wife and family. From that day to this we've never discussed religion.


*one day I threw out the last of the baggage and realized there was nothing left and I was an atheist.
 
:confused: wrong again halley.

Me? Wrong?

Nah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Adele

Then again, your Father might have been a fan of hers back in her nightclub singing days and named you after her without you knowing it. There are worse things than being named after a saucy night club singer.

Not as much as you'd expect, judging from some of the posters on this thread and other Mormons I've encountered online elsewhere.

Don't underestimate the human ability to ignore or rationalise inconvenient facts. If someone wants to believe something strongly enough they can always come up with explanations of contradictory evidence that are acceptable to them, if to nobody else.

For example:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
 
It's probably the only thing that she's ever done right in her career. What's the most surprising about it is that she voted against something that a primarily Caucasian group wanted.

Jan Brewer is the governor who voted to defund transplants for Medicaid patients, allowing several of them to die before the bill was overturned. She also signed an extremely racist immigration bill that legalized racial profiling. The bill allowed the police to stop any minority at any time solely on suspicion of illegal immigration, thereby forcing legal immigrants and native-born Americans with Mexican ancestry to have to carry their identification at all times in order to prove that they were in the US legally.

I do acknowledge that she stopped this one bad law from getting through though. Maybe she's learning about how much it costs the State of Arizona to defend a bad law once it's been enacted. Here's Brewer's record as it stand now:

  • Discriminating against the poor and disabled: OK
  • Discriminating against racial minorities: OK
  • Religious discrimination: No, that's bad, m'kay?

A very cynical part of me wonders if Brewer vetoed the bill because she didn't want to lose the tourist dollars that Arizona rakes in from the hippy-dippy New Age businesses around Sonoma

Thanks for the follow-through on Gov. Brewer, Apology!
And you're prolly right about the tourist trade- there's gold in them there hippies!
 
Janadele,

Could you answer a few questions for me? These are problems with the content of the Book of Mormon raised on a site critical to the document, and I wanted to get a Latter Day Saint's take on a few of the criticisms.

Science and History in the Book of Mormon

In order to not overwhelm you, I do this a little at a time. We can start with 1 Nephi.

1 Nephi

"I make a record in the language of my father ... the language of the Egyptians." That's a strange language an Israelite around 600 BCE to write in! 1:2

Apparently the 400+ km hike from Jerusalem to the Red Sea took only three days. 2:5-6

Nephi named a "continually running" river that flowed from Arabia to the Red Sea after his son Laman. But there are no permanent rivers in Arabia and there is no evidence that such rivers existed in 600 BCE. 2:8-9

God made the New World just for Nephi and his family. (For though it had been occupied by the Native Americans for tens of thousands of years, God made it for Nephi, not for them.) 2:20

Laban's sword blade was made of steel, long before steel existed. 4:9

"And he, supposing that I spake of the brethren of the church, and that I was truly that Laban whom I had slain, wherefore he did follow me."
Laban's servant figured Nephi was Laban and that he spoke for the church. What church? The Jews in 600 BCE didn't have churches, did they? 4:26

Lehi's brass plates told the story of Adam and Eve "who were our first parents." (So Mormons know Evolution is false.) 5:11

Nephi sees "many cities" settled by the Nephites in the New World. Yet no evidence of them has ever been found. 12:3

And then it came to pass that Nephi broke his steel bow. Of course steel didn't exist at the time, wouldn't work well for a bow anyway, and would be hard to break. But, oh well. This is the Book of Mormon. 16:18

They come to a place that they call Bountiful, "because of its much fruit and also wild honey." But the Arabian coastline does not abound in fruit or honey, and hasn't for many thousands of years. 17:5

"We did work timbers of curious workmanship." But where did Nephi get the lumber? There are very few trees in the Arabian desert. 18:1

After arriving in the New World, Nephi and company planted all of the seeds that they brought from "the land of Jerusalem" and "they did grow exceedingly." Yet there is no evidence that Near Eastern crops ever grew in the New World
in pre-Columbian times. 18:24

Nephi found cows, horses, oxen, asses, and goats and goats when he arrived in the New World in 590 BCE. Yet none of these domesticated animals existed in North America before the Europeans brought them over 2000 years later. 18:25
 
"I make a record in the language of my father ... the language of the Egyptians." That's a strange language an Israelite around 600 BCE to write in!

Reformed Egyptian

The claim that Israelites would not use Egyptian is clearly false. By the ninth to sixth centuries before Christ, Israelites used Egyptian numerals mingled with Hebrew text. The Papyrus Amherst 63 contains a text of Psalms 20:2-6 written in Aramaic (the language of Jesus) using Egyptian characters. This text was originally dated to the second century B.C., but this has since been extended to the 4th century B.C.[1]

More significant, however, was an ostracon uncovered at Arad in 1967. Dating "toward the end of the seventh century B.C.," it reflects usage from shortly before 600 B.C., the time of Lehi. The text on the ostracon is written in a combination of Egyptian hieratic and Hebrew characters, but can be read entirely as Egyptian. Of the seventeen words in the text, ten are written in [Egyptian] hieratic and seven in Hebrew. However, all the words written in Hebrew can be read as Egyptian words, while one of them, which occurs twice, has the same meaning in both Egyptian and Hebrew.19 Of the ten words written in hieratic script, four are numerals (one occurring in each line).20 One symbol, denoting a measure of capacity, occurs four times (once in each of the four lines), and the remaining Egyptian word occurs twice. Thus, while seventeen words appear on the ostracon, if one discounts the recurrence of words, only six words are written in hieratic (of which four are numerals), and six in Hebrew.
 

Thank you Ray.

I'd previous discussed the infamous "Steel bow" with Janadele, but she chose to flat out ignore me, even when I offered an explanation consistent with Nephi's somewhat bumbling depiction in the Book of Mormon. In that example, the "Steel bow" was probably a "strengthened" or "steeled" bow, a wooden bow reinforced with metal. As such it would have been an ornamental or decorative bow, a pagan ritual object stolen when they fled. That interpretation of the Steel bow opens up some interesting avenues for metaphor and additional meanings in the account.

Sadly, instead of embracing what could be a major parable of the Moron faith, the account becomes an embarrassment that has to be explained away, a tale of a clumsy superman breaking an impossible weapon, instead of a prophet acting out a mortality play about the very journey he has lead his family to take.
 
Sadly, instead of embracing what could be a major parable of the Moron faith, the account becomes an embarrassment that has to be explained away, a tale of a clumsy superman breaking an impossible weapon, instead of a prophet acting out a mortality play about the very journey he has lead his family to take.

We all have our opinions and beliefs. To me it's not a "Moron faith", nor is Nephi's account an "embarrassment".
 
Ray, all of these inconvenient facts have been brought up before, and hand-waved away with "you're just listening to anti-Mormon propaganda" or links to rather poorly-constructed apologetics, like the one where "horses" really meant "deer" and so on.
 
Ray, all of these inconvenient facts have been brought up before, and hand-waved away with "you're just listening to anti-Mormon propaganda" or links to rather poorly-constructed apologetics, like the one where "horses" really meant "deer" and so on.

I believe there are valid objections/criticisms in regard to the Book of Mormon, and not all are "anti-Mormon propaganda". I don't believe apologetics answers all the critical questions either, but it does answer many. I don't expect that these answers will be satisfactory to many skeptics, and I'm okay with that. Some of them in current form are not satisfactory to me, and I don't intend to defend something that I'm not convinced about myself. That doesn't mean I consider the Book of Mormon fraudulent - I don't. Perhaps there are "good answers", "plausible answers", and "no answers". I can go with any of the three depending on the situation.
 
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