Texas Repubs pass abortion bill

[RandFan]

The way you are using the term human being is strictly in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't have a definitive definition the way that taxonomy classifies a fetus as a human does.

[citations missing]

No, you are the one equivocating the terms. Not me. I've given you a link to an expert in the field of developmental biology. That a cell or multi-cell organism is human does not make it a human.

hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.

You are begging the question. You are stating that a blastocyst is human and an organism and therefore a human.

Yet you provide zero evidence for your assertion.

 

[RandFan]

Sperm cells are not the members of any species.

Then neither are blastocyst, zygote and fetus.

 

[respect]

Stop it with the semantics. Are you saying that a fertilized human ovum is the same thing as a human being, with the same rights and privileges? Yes or no?

The way you guys are using the term human being is pretty meaningless to me because anyone can define it however they want and not be wrong. The biological definition is very clear cut. And no, I do not think a fertilized egg should have all of the rights and privileges it will later in life. This does not require me to make errors that anyone who could pass a first grade biology class would not make. Likewise, I don't think babies should be allowed to drive, this does not require that I demand that they can't be considered a member of the homo genus.

 

[RandFan]

A fetus is no more a human, than a caterpillar is a butterfly.

Thank you. The butterfly has the same genetic code as the caterpillar it once was. It is the same organism. To state that a fetus is a human being is as erroneous as stating that a caterpillar is a butterfly.

 

[uke2se]

The way you guys are using the term human being is pretty meaningless to me because anyone can define it however they want and not be wrong. The biological definition is very clear cut. And no, I do not think a fertilized egg should have all of the rights and privileges it will later in life. This does not require me to make errors that anyone who could pass a first grade biology class would not make. Likewise, I don't think babies should be allowed to drive, this does not require that I demand that they can't be considered a member of the homo genus.

Do you understand why the exact biological classification of a fetus is completely irrelevant in this discussion, while the rights and privileges we give to a fetus is not?

 

[respect]

A fetus is no more a human, than a caterpillar is a butterfly.

Nonsense, fetus, caterpillar and butterfly all describe various stages of maturity in an organism, human describes a species of organism. This analogy does not work. A caterpillar isn't a butterfly in the same way a baby isn't an adult.

 

[RandFan]

The biological definition is very clear cut.

Yet you cannot provide citations.

 

[respect]

You are begging the question. You are stating that a blastocyst is human and an organism and therefore a human.

Yet you provide zero evidence for your assertion.

What part are you doubting? That it is an organism or that organisms are classified into species or that members of homo species are humans?

 

[respect]

Then neither are blastocyst, zygote and fetus.

Nonsense.

 

[RandFan]

Nonsense, fetus, caterpillar and butterfly all describe various stages of maturity in an organism, human describes a species of organism. This analogy does not work. A caterpillar isn't a butterfly in the same way a baby isn't an adult.

The analogy does work. We are talking about developmental biology. Stages. Biologists do NOT refer to a fetus as a human being. While I can't prove a negative it's telling that you cannot prove the positive.

PZ Meyers, a developmental biologist, has made clear that the argument that a fertilized egg is a human being is nonsense and not shared by the scientific community.

The fertilized egg is not a human life – Pharyngula

 

[respect]

Do you understand why the exact biological classification of a fetus is completely irrelevant in this discussion, while the rights and privileges we give to a fetus is not?

I understand that its status as a human does not grant it any rights, I wish we could get past this idiotic insistence that a fetus isn't a human, anyone who has ever taken a biology class should know that that claim is wrong.

 

[RandFan]

What part are you doubting? That it is an organism or that organisms are classified into species or that members of homo species are humans?

I'm doubting that developmental biologists hold that being an organism that is homo sapient makes the organism a human being.

A human sperm cell is homo sapient (how could it be anything else). That it is does not make it a human being. A human being, like a butterfly, is the end result of developmental biology. It is the end result of sperm, ovum and gestation.

 

[respect]

Yet you cannot provide citations.

Dictionary definitions don't count somehow?

 

[RandFan]

Nonsense.

Gainsaying. That's not logically valid argument.

 

[RandFan]

Dictionary definitions don't count somehow?

The dictionary does not use the term "organism". Here, let me post it one more time.

hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.

Developmental biologists don't use the term "human" as a noun when referring to a fetus. They use it as a verb (see the Meyers link). It is human. I'm curious, what species does human sperm belong to?

 

[respect]

I'm doubting that developmental biologists hold that being an organism that is homo sapient makes the organism a human being.

A human sperm cell is homo sapient (how could it be anything else). That it is does not make it a human being. A human being, like a butterfly, is the end result of developmental biology. It is the end result of sperm, ovum and gestation.

The way you are using the term "human being" a fetus will not qualify until it develops a brain. However, others can define it differently. I don't have a way to determine who is correct because you are making value judgements about what it means to be a human being.

This is not the case with the definition of a human, all members of the homo genus are humans.

If you want to differentiate between a human and a human being that is fine, but you should make it clear, and be clear yourself, that you assigning additional qualifications on top of being a human. The ability to think and feel is not relevant to the definition of a human, for that matter, plenty of animals can think and feel and are not humans. Your definition of a human being seems to be a human that can think and feel. That is fine, but you should stop with the nonsense about how a pre-brain fetus is human but not a human, they are not a human being under your definition, but they are still a human. Likewise, someone in a vegetative state won't qualify as a human being under your definition, but they are still a human. You don't get kicked out of the homo genus because you suffered a devastating brain injury.

 

[respect]

The dictionary does not use the term "organism". Here, let me post it one more time.

Developmental biologists don't use the term "human" as a noun when referring to a fetus. They use it as a verb (see the Meyers link). It is human. I'm curious, what species does human sperm belong to?

Oh, sweet Jesus...

In the context of biology taxonomy is the classification of organisms. Both a species and a genus are a level of classification.

 

[RandFan]

This is not the case with the definition of a human, all members of the homo genus are humans.

It's an arguable point. Developmental biologists do not refer to a fetus as "a human". If and when you show me that the science views the fetus as "a human" then I will reconsider. Until then, to me, it's human not a human. The rest is the vagaries of language. I refer to my dead father as a human being. As a person. When in fact, technically he is neither.

 

[GlennB]

I understand that its status as a human does not grant it any rights, I wish we could get past this idiotic insistence that a fetus isn't a human, anyone who has ever taken a biology class should know that that claim is wrong.

My degree is in Biology and I can confidently state that a fertilised egg is not a chicken. Neither is a tadpole a frog, nor a lettuce seed a lettuce.

 

[RandFan]

In the context of biology taxonomy is the classification of organisms. Both a species and a genus are a level of classification.

Show me where developmental biologists claim that a fetus is a human being? Human sperm is human. It does not belong to any other species or genus. Developmental biologists do not refer to a fetus as a human being. They refer to it as human.

We can go around and around or we can move on. I understand your argument. It's not at all compelling IMO.