Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

I'll look tomorrow. TheL8Elvis clarified, though I will try to find it tomorrow. I remember that being an issue for me in the beginning, so I'll try to find it tomorrow. Remind me if I forget. Feel free to PM me.

I am certain there was blood sample was taken, just buccal swabs for DNA. (which was recorded ... it was before or after the voice stress test, IIRC)

If you can find something, I will be very surprised.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Alternate juror in Zimmerman trial speaks to Valerie Boey

http://video.foxnews.com/v/25517725...ial-speaks-to-valerie-boey/?playlist_id=86924

(no youtube link found, just fox news...)

Would have voted non-guilty.

GZ injuries stood out.

John Good's testimony of motions, who was on top, was relevant.

Thinks it was GZ screaming.

Doesn't understand talk of civil rights complaint.

 

[MiloMinderbinder]

George describes what Trayvon was doing to the police dispatcher:


Emphasis added. Left in context so George doesn't sue me for editing his words.

Considering the nature of the area, a pedestrian would have to look at the sky or the ground to avoid looking at houses. No witness has come forward and said Trayvon was doing something that would actually be suspicious. For example, trying doors to see if they were locked or going up to houses and peering into the windows.

I think it would be odd to see someone looking at the houses, and especially at night in the rain. Maybe it's just me, but if I'm walking around my neighborhood, I usually look at people's yards but try not to look into windows, and especially at night. Just seems weird and I would probably notice if someone else was doing that. Not saying it is necessarily suspicious but there does seem to be a certain demeanor or protocol, at least IMO.

But, if TM was on the phone at the time, then I think this behavior is totally understandable. I tend to wander when I'm on the phone (usually around my own house or in my backyard), and if I was walking down the street I might look a bit erratic as well.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

George describes what Trayvon was doing to the police dispatcher:


Emphasis added. Left in context so George doesn't sue me for editing his words.

Considering the nature of the area, a pedestrian would have to look at the sky or the ground to avoid looking at houses. No witness has come forward and said Trayvon was doing something that would actually be suspicious. For example, trying doors to see if they were locked or going up to houses and peering into the windows.

A regular pedestrian wouldn't be walking on other peoples lawns (also known as trespassing), in the dark, in the rain while looking at houses. Odds are they would be looking downwards at the sidewalk trying to avoid puddles and trying to keep the rain off of their face and not walking on lawns and soaking their shoes even more than what they already were. That is suspicious behavior in any reasonable persons view.

Just because nobody else saw it means nothing, it was over the course of a few minutes. I can walk 1/4 mile in the rain at ~7pm at night (and I have several tines, wearing a hoodie no less) in my residential neighborhood that is just as densely packed if not more so than there and not see a soul other than maybe a car or two passing by. It's not like it was a sunny Saturday afternoon where you would expect to see a lot of people out and about.

 

[boooeee]

I think it would be odd to see someone looking at the houses, and especially at night in the rain. Maybe it's just me, but if I'm walking around my neighborhood, I usually look at people's yards but try not to look into windows, and especially at night. Just seems weird and I would probably notice if someone else was doing that. Not saying it is necessarily suspicious but there does seem to be a certain demeanor or protocol, at least IMO.

But, if TM was on the phone at the time, then I think this behavior is totally understandable. I tend to wander when I'm on the phone (usually around my own house or in my backyard), and if I was walking down the street I might look a bit erratic as well.

Is it possible that Trayvon just forgot which house he was staying at, and so had to look in windows to figure it out? Not sure how often he had stayed there in the past, and it was getting dark. Just a possible scenario where there is an innocent explanation for what TM was doing but that could still be considered suspicious from GZ's perspective.

 

[Jono]

Erhm... what the hell is this? And who is Michael Dyson?? A known nut I take it?

 

[Dissolution]

I think it would be odd to see someone looking at the houses, and especially at night in the rain. Maybe it's just me, but if I'm walking around my neighborhood, I usually look at people's yards but try not to look into windows, and especially at night. Just seems weird and I would probably notice if someone else was doing that. Not saying it is necessarily suspicious but there does seem to be a certain demeanor or protocol, at least IMO.

But, if TM was on the phone at the time, then I think this behavior is totally understandable. I tend to wander when I'm on the phone (usually around my own house or in my backyard), and if I was walking down the street I might look a bit erratic as well.

Emphasis mine.
Wasn't he using a headset or an earpiece, too?
Would explain why Zimmerman thought he was acting strangely, as he wouldn't have been able to see it.

 

[Dan O.]

Does that work for you?

It's your straw, you own what you spin.

My instructions were to look at each action/utterance and decide who it best fits. While you tried to go over the top and reverse everything, can you honestly say that there is evidence that proves your scenario is wrong?

 

[Cylinder]

Either way, no one claims to have seen a bright flashlight, much less any flashlight prior to the encounter, so it's really only important in supposing whether GZ could look for TM with the flashlight or not. If the bright flashlight worked, you would think GZ would have spotted TM. Or TM would have found that to be an event worth mentioning to RJ on the phone ? "Hey, he is searching for me with a flashlight ?"

Your first sentence is the most important. No-one who looked outside saw the flashlight during the argument and struggle, yet nearly everyone saw Mr. Manalo's and OFC Smith's flashlight after the gunshot.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I am certain there was NO blood sample taken, just buccal swabs for DNA. (which was recorded ... it was before or after the voice stress test, IIRC)

If you can find something, I will be very surprised.

ETA: I accidentally the word "no"

 

[bynmdsue]

Erhm... what the hell is this? And who is Michael Dyson?? A known nut I take it?

Pretty much, I'm sure he has a day job but mainly he appears on TV to complain about how horrible it is to have to live in America while being black.

What Michael Eric Dyson doesn't really want to talk about is who's killing the majority of young black males in this country.

 

[bynmdsue]

Is it possible that Trayvon just forgot which house he was staying at, and so had to look in windows to figure it out? Not sure how often he had stayed there in the past, and it was getting dark. Just a possible scenario where there is an innocent explanation for what TM was doing but that could still be considered suspicious from GZ's perspective.

That's also something I'd expect someone who got caught casing houses to break into later would say.

 

[Dan O.]

I suppose that is a valid interpretation. You have to imagine serino is being clairvoyant, and knows the flashlight is on, even though he wasn't there.

I think it rather likely he tried the flashlight out, found that you had to smack it to make it work. I interpreted "It's on now" to mean "It worked when I tried it", it comes on now, because I smacked it.

Either way, no one claims to have seen a bright flashlight, much less any flashlight prior to the encounter, so it's really only important in supposing whether GZ could look for TM with the flashlight or not. If the bright flashlight worked, you would think GZ would have spotted TM. Or TM would have found that to be an event worth mentioning to RJ on the phone ? "Hey, he is searching for me with a flashlight ?"

Or maybe Trayvon just reports what is important saying: "Now he's behind me." He's got somethin in his hand. I don't know what this creepy ass cracker's problem is."

Was a detailed report on the examination of that flashlight ever filed? If Serino actually examined the flashlight he should have taken notes. More likely the flashlight examination would have been delegated to one of the techs and would probably not have been started yet (reference to the time Serino was first interviewing George the night of the shooting). Serino though would know the basics like the flashlight was found in the debris field south of the tee. And I believe George has already told him that he had the flashlight in his hand at the time of the confrontation. It's a logical assumption, not clairvoiance, that the flashlight would be on if George was still holding it.

 

[triforcharity]

I am certain there was blood sample was taken, just buccal swabs for DNA. (which was recorded ... it was before or after the voice stress test, IIRC)

If you can find something, I will be very surprised.

I haven't been able to find it, so I'm going to assume I was mistaken.

I personally would WANT my blood taken. This way, there's absolutely no speculation or chance of that being brought up later.

 

[Toontown]

A jury trial is a system for making a decision, it doesn't always arrive at the truth. We should understand the jurors can and do make mistakes in logic and the law.

To give an example, Juror B37 put great stock in the statement by a police officer that he believed George Zimmerman. Disregarding specific instructions from the judge to ignore that statement.

Touche, Kestrel. And good catch on how that juror's comment might indicate her failure to strictly obey the judge's instructions. I wonder if this point has been brought up elsewhere, in the media. Hope so.

Blind acorn finds hog? The media probably know they can't use it to sow the seeds of controversy. They might get sued even more than they are already being sued for previous false spin.

B37 did not say she used CC's opinion of GZ's truthfulness as an argument in the deliberations. But she could hardly be expected to forget she heard it. That was the prosecutor's fault for not objecting to the question before CC answered it.

Bringing this up only reinforces that B37 answered Cooper's questions honestly and doesn't have a selective memory on/off switch. She heard what she heard - CC believed GZ - and she thought CC's judgement in such matters is probably good, and explained why she thought so. At the time she thought so, she was evaluating testimony she had actually heard. There is nothing wrong with doing what she was supposed to be doing.

And she was probably right. The lie detector also believed GZ.

p.s. Everyone knew the jury WOULD be influenced by Serino's opinion. At minimum on an unconscious level. But it's interesting indeed to hear a juror admit (apparently) that she, as it were, "deliberately deliberated it".
.
.

Except she didn't admit she "deliberately deliberated it". The deliberations came long after the moment of CC's statement.

I would have suspected B37 was lying if she said she gave CC's opinion no weight. How about you?

 

[MiloMinderbinder]

Is it possible that Trayvon just forgot which house he was staying at, and so had to look in windows to figure it out? Not sure how often he had stayed there in the past, and it was getting dark. Just a possible scenario where there is an innocent explanation for what TM was doing but that could still be considered suspicious from GZ's perspective.

My understanding is that he had stayed at that home lots of times. Plus, where he was seen, it wasn't near his house but closer to the entrance of the community. That means his internal compass, even if he was a bit lost, wouldn't have had him looking there.

I do agree that looking for a house number or something like that is normal behavior. But, let's say TM is really lost for whatever reason - why not just ask GZ for directions when he walks by him while GZ is in the truck? And, you'd think he would mention it to the girl on the phone that he couldn't find his way home, was confused, turned around, etc.

Whatever happened, it seems like these two guys saw each other as suspicious and hostile and the situation got out of hand rather quickly.

 

[Kestrel]

A regular pedestrian wouldn't be walking on other peoples lawns (also known as trespassing), in the dark, in the rain while looking at houses.

During George's call to the police, he didn't mention Trayvon walking on people's lawns.

Trayvon did pause under the covered porch of the community center. As a guest of a resident, he had every right to be there.

 

[Dan O.]

A regular pedestrian wouldn't be walking on other peoples lawns (also known as trespassing)

Are you aware that this was reported at the time to be a common path that the neighborhood kids would use? I remember even seeing video of kids cutting through there. Only recently did the complex install a fence along the west border (all except behind George's place, I guess they figured that part would be sufficiently protected).

Was George tresspassing when he entered the cut-through chasing after Trayvon?

 

[RandFan]

You really need to watch the Neighbourhood Coordinator's testimony, especially the part around 42-46 mins where she is questioned as to what they tell the participants to look out for in suspicious people, and what to do when they see someone matching those traits.

For some clues, someone you don't know. Someone who is looking at houses and cars. Someone who entered and is walking about areas that the residents don't usually walk. Someone that appears to be just walking about, especially in the dark or the rain. Like it or not, TH was a perfect match to the sort of person that the Neighbourhood Watch participants are told to look out for and ring the non-emergency number, which is exactly what GZ did. He followed the NW playbook to the letter.

Can you tell me which part of the playbook calls for having a gun and getting out of your car to follow someone? We know that at least until the non-emergency operator said "we don't need you to do that", that was precisely what GZ was doing. IMO: This behavior was not by the book. But I could be wrong.

If it was by the book then I need to know which pages the admonition for being armed and following suspicious people are on. Did the expert testify that their policy was for participants to be armed and to follow suspicious people? Now, if you want to argue that GZ did nothing illegal then I can understand your position. If you want to argue that GZ did nothing reckless or counter to the policy of the Neighborhood watch then I think you would need to support that claim.

 

[Cylinder]

DOJ asks for hold on evidence

The Sanford Police Department says the United States Department of Justice has asked for a hold on evidence related to the George Zimmerman case.

Justice Department officials said earlier this week there was an open investigation into the death of Trayvon Martin.


Multiple agencies are working with the civil rights division to evaluate evidence from the federal investigation and recent state trial, the office of public affairs said in a statement issued Monday.

After publishing the verdict and entering judgment, Nelson entered a release on the evidence which was presumably handed back to SPD to be claimed by the owners.