Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

TM won the fight. He may have viewed it as a typical high school boy would have (at least one from my generation), which is when won boy has clearly won and sent a message to the other boy the fight stops.

Just a typical high school boy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense

Items taken from Trayvon Martin's cell phone -- including a text-message discussion of drug use and pictures of a gun and marijuana plants -- are among new details released Thursday by attorneys for the neighborhood watch volunteer accused of killing him without provocation 14 months ago.

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/174-defendant-s-3rd-supplemental-discovery

MARTIN: I lost da 1st round but won da 2nd nd 3rd . . . .
FRIEND: Ohhh So It Wass 3 Rounds? Damn well at least yu wonn lol but yuu needa stop fighting bae Forreal
MARTIN: Nay im not done with fool….. he gone hav 2 see me again
FRIEND: Nooo… Stop, yuu waint gonn bee satisified till yuh suspended again, huh?
MARTIN: Naw but he aint breed nuff 4 me, only his nose

And the jury didn't even see this stuff ...

 

[Sam.I.Am]

If the claim about TM slamming GZ's head into the sidewalk is true, the EMTs who treated him should be fired because they should have taken him to the hospital to be evaluated for a possible concussion.

Believe it or not unless you are under arrest and in the custody of the police who have an explicit responsibility for your health and safety a citizen has the right to refuse medical treatment as long as they sign a release form (which Zimmerman did). Advisable? Perhaps not. Suspicious? Not at all.

Remember that there is no obligation to actually be seriously injured before you can claim self-defense. You only need to be in reasonable fear of being seriously injured or killed at the moment that you do whatever it is that you did in self-defense. Under Florida law you don't need to be injured at all in order to make and be exonerated for that use. That Zimmerman didn't go straight for his weapon much earlier to me indicates that going for his gun wasn't his first instinct but instead looking for a less violent means (calling out for help).

If you look at the timeline the weapon was used only after Good left them and it's possible that Zimmerman felt at some level that he had no other recourse at that point. Who knows what would have happened if Good had tackled Martin instead. I know that if I were Good I'd be feeling a bit guilty about that decision to step back and call 911.

 

[KatieG]

Too bad the defense didn't get someone to testify that a sudden cessation of blood pressure would prevent bruises from showing up on the surface. That the hands would have to be opened up and examined to determine any actual bruising. Oh wait they did. And the state's ME testified that he did not open up the hands.

That is absolutely false. Many murderers have been caught because the ME finds bruising that didn't show at first. A couple of husbands are doing time for that very reason.

Also, here is a great article by a police officer about GZ:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

 

[Cylinder]

How (under FL law) is TM fighting back against an armed GZ who never identified himself as representing authority not self defense?

It could have been...I suppose...I guess...

Your posit requires that we assume Zimmerman confronted Martin. There is no credible evidence of that and the evidence that does exist cuts the other way.

If you find Selene Baladoor credible, she saw south-to-north movement before the screams. Of course, the first day she claims to have mentioned it to anyone outside of her sister was the very day she testified in court. Maybe she forgot...or something...could be, I suppose...

Maybe she was aware that if she claimed to have told someone from the SAO, they would have been required to notify Zimmerman of that change. Maybe... Maybe someone from the SAO told her that if she gave that testimony for the first time, Zimmerman could be caught off-guard. I guess...

Mark O'Mara is a seasoned criminal defense attorney on home territory. My 11-year-old tells more convincing lies.

Had TM been able to have wrestled the gun away and then shot and killed GZ he should have been able to get off the way GZ just did (assuming he came up with a reasonably-sounding narrative as GZ did).

In that case as in this one we would have only that survivor's account to go by.

The problem is that's built on an assumption that I would believe Martin's account without comparing it to other evidence. I wouldn't. We would be left with a dead Zimmerman who has a broken nose, was seen being pummeled (or that's what it looked like) and injuries to the back of the head. It would be pretty clear that Martin would be facing the choice between 2nd degree and 3rd degree felony murder.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Your assumption seems to be that a teenager will always beat a man to death. They don't ever stop unless they are shot dead like a vicious animal.

You are flagrantly putting words in my mouth, nothing I said remotely implies this. All I said is that if you have someone trapped on the ground, and can pummel them freely, you ultimately have the option of killing them. Many UFC fights could have ended in death if they had happened on the street and the winner decided to kill his opponent. I have no idea if Martin would have killed Zimmerman, Zimmerman had no way of knowing that either.

Or does that assumption only apply to black teenagers?

I'll dignify this question only with wonderment that you get away with this kind of behavior around here.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

TheL8Elvis, none of that has anything to do with the incident.. All that's material to this case is what Zimmerman knew, which was that Martin had him trapped and was pummeling him. Who Martin was, all of Martin's actions prior to trapping and beating Zimmerman, are completely irrelevant here. There's a very good reason the jury didn't hear about that stuff, it has no place in a discussion about self defense.

 

[RandFan]

Trayvon?

Yes.

It's Zimmerman who's had his name relentlessly smeared as a racist murderer.

A.) According to Zimmerman that's all part of god's plan. B.) Zimmerman is alive to defend his name. Martin not so much.

 

[bynmdsue]

That is absolutely false. Many murderers have been caught because the ME finds bruising that didn't show at first. A couple of husbands are doing time for that very reason.

You're right, the guy who performed 9,000 autopsies and wrote the book that the state's own ME relied on has no idea what he is talking about. Sure, sure.

Or...

Those women's bruises simply became noticeable after death as the color drained more and more from the bruised area.

Or...

They died with their circulatory systems still closed and not filling their chest cavities with blood.

Or...

 

[Dan O.]

The problem is that's built on an assumption that I would believe Martin's account without comparing it to other evidence. I wouldn't. We would be left with a dead Zimmerman who has a broken nose, was seen being pummeled (or that's what it looked like) and injuries to the back of the head. It would be pretty clear that Martin would be facing the choice between 2nd degree and 3rd degree felony murder.

Unless George Zimmerman smartened up as he fattened up waiting for this trial, we might very wel get to see how that alternate scenareo actually plays.

 

[Kestrel]

The fight ended when Trayvon was shot a bit south of the sidewalk T. We know that Trayvon dropped his phone when the fight started. That was found about 40 ft south of the T, several yards south of his body. A witness telling us that the fight moved from south to north is consistent with this evidence.

This evidence isn't consistent with George's story about walking across the T to check on an address, then walking straight back and being assaulted at the T. George wasn't going to find an address, he was looking for the "suspect".

The police call audio is another clue that George's explanation for why he left his truck was bogus. George told the dispatcher "he's running" and eight seconds later he has parked his truck, gotten out and shut the door. George then starts running and a bit later the dispatcher asks "are you following him?".

 

[RepresentativePress]

"Di Maio also said that there was “definite evidence” of six impacts that caused wounds to Zimmerman’s nose, the back of his head and his forehead. Those injuries were also consistent with Zimmerman’s account of events, Di Maio said." http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...orge-zimmerman-trial-20130709,0,6005164.story

 

[Sam.I.Am]

That is absolutely false. Many murderers have been caught because the ME finds bruising that didn't show at first. A couple of husbands are doing time for that very reason.

Citations? Any that you do have are probably soft tissue bruises but I'm willing to see the evidence, perhaps there actually are husbands being put away for murder based upon emerging knuckle bruises on their dead wife's hands although I doubt it. But seeing as you are so sure of that you will of course prove me wrong in that assumption.

Then of course there's the testimony from the trial that referred specifically to the knuckles and how an ME may need to cut below the skin to find the damage to the thin tissue layer between skin and bone. But hey, you must have a better source than the man who actually wrote the book on the subject so have at it.

Also, here is a great article by a police officer about GZ:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

That is very interesting indeed. His burning issue is that some officers told the truth on the stand and wouldn't lie for the prosecution. He would much rather have had them perjure themselves for something that he feels so strongly about. Quite the public servant example that you have there. I'm quite sure that you would most certainly want him there if you are ever the defendant and he doesn't quite like you and perhaps may color the truth just a bit to make you look just a little bit guilty.

 

[lane99]

Only in the movies

...Had TM been able to have wrestled the gun away and then shot and killed GZ he should have been able to get off the way GZ just did...

Of course Trayvon would have "gotten off", so to speak. Rightfully so. And further, unlike GZ, he would be regarded as someone who had done nothing "wrong" in any sense of the word. Just a kid minding his own business, out for a walk, forced to fight for his life after being accosted by the gun-toting sheriff of Zimmercounty, USA.

And he wouldn't have to "come up" with much either, since that's essentially what did happen. Up to the point, of course, of the gun being wrestled away. Which, sadly, Trayvon would never really have stood a chance of doing.
.
.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Believe it or not unless you are under arrest and in the custody of the police who have an explicit responsibility for your health and safety a citizen has the right to refuse medical treatment as long as they sign a release form (which Zimmerman did). Advisable? Perhaps not. Suspicious? Not at all.

Remember that there is no obligation to actually be seriously injured before you can claim self-defense. You only need to be in reasonable fear of being seriously injured or killed at the moment that you do whatever it is that you did in self-defense. Under Florida law you don't need to be injured at all in order to make and be exonerated for that use. That Zimmerman didn't go straight for his weapon much earlier to me indicates that going for his gun wasn't his first instinct but instead looking for a less violent means (calling out for help).

If you look at the timeline the weapon was used only after Good left them and it's possible that Zimmerman felt at some level that he had no other recourse at that point. Who knows what would have happened if Good had tackled Martin instead. I know that if I were Good I'd be feeling a bit guilty about that decision to step back and call 911.

No, you don't have to accept medical treatment. Did anyone testify that he was evaluated for a concussion? Or did he sign a release form because there was no reason for him to go to a hospital for a bloody nose and a few scratches?

And we have yet another scenario in which Zimmerman was a hero. Now he was calling for help as soon as TM attacked him rather than after he was pinned on the ground. So we have the claim that there is overwhelming evidence that TM attacked GZ, made by people who can't even agree on what happened.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

What was TM "fighting back" against when he attacked GZ in the first place?

Evidence that TM attacked GZ?

That GZ was the only one who had any injuries, minor as they were, is not proof that he was attacked. Multiple posters have already stated that GZ's MMA instructor testified that he was a totally inept fighter, so the fact that he lost the fight, and lost badly, does not prove that he was jumped from behind.

Why did the jury ask for clarification on the manslaughter charge? Because they were convinced that GZ was attacked by TM but wanted to stall to get an extra free meal? Because they were curious in some academic sense about criminal law?

Of course, even if TM threw the first blow how do we know he didn't do it because he was afraid the GZ was going to attack him? Other than. of course, that people engaged in self-defense only use guns to defend themselves?

There are a number of plausible scenarios, none of which is conclusively supported by evidence.

 

[Frank Newgent]

How (under FL law) is TM fighting back against an armed GZ who never identified himself as representing authority not self defense?

It could have been...I suppose...I guess...

Your posit requires that we assume Zimmerman confronted Martin. There is no credible evidence of that and the evidence that does exist cuts the other way.

Rachel Jeantel's testimony indicated GZ confronted TM. And had TM survived he could have testified as to what GZ did.

If you find Selene Baladoor credible, she saw south-to-north movement before the screams. Of course, the first day she claims to have mentioned it to anyone outside of her sister was the very day she testified in court. Maybe she forgot...or something...could be, I suppose...

Maybe she was aware that if she claimed to have told someone from the SAO, they would have been required to notify Zimmerman of that change. Maybe... Maybe someone from the SAO told her that if she gave that testimony for the first time, Zimmerman could be caught off-guard. I guess...

Mark O'Mara is a seasoned criminal defense attorney on home territory. My 11-year-old tells more convincing lies.

Had TM been able to have wrestled the gun away and then shot and killed GZ he should have been able to get off the way GZ just did (assuming he came up with a reasonably-sounding narrative as GZ did).

In that case as in this one we would have only that survivor's account to go by.

The problem is that's built on an assumption that I would believe Martin's account without comparing it to other evidence. I wouldn't. We would be left with a dead Zimmerman who has a broken nose, was seen being pummeled (or that's what it looked like) and injuries to the back of the head. It would be pretty clear that Martin would be facing the choice between 2nd degree and 3rd degree felony murder.

We'd also be left with a live TM who could presumably come up with a narrative explaining this. The narrative of GZ enable him to get away with killing an unarmed seventeen year old.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That is absolutely false. Many murderers have been caught because the ME finds bruising that didn't show at first. A couple of husbands are doing time for that very reason.

*ahem* he was talking about TM. TM, being dead and all, would not have had bruises form on his hands on the surface because he had no blood pressure.

So it's not false.

Also, here is a great article by a police officer about GZ:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

Why is it a great article ? It's an appeal to emotion, and filled with unsubstantiated claims.

For example:
George fits into a special category that we will just term the perpetual wanna-be. He loves guns, he loves MMA, he watches cops. He fancies himself a criminal investigator in the making. He patrols in his personal vehicle, keeps a police scanner and thinks that he has a direct line into dispatch.

Where is the evidence for those claims ? Please add some skepticism and have another look at all the false assertions made in that article.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Did Georges injuries result from Trayvon pounding his head against the sidewalk, or from the scuffle resulting from when George tried to tackle Trayvon to make sure he didn't get away?

Did you watch the trial and see the same evidence as the jury and the rest of us, because I don't recall seeing any evidence of that happening ?

 

[eeyore1954]

Your assumption seems to be that a teenager will always beat a man to death. They don't ever stop unless they are shot dead like a vicious animal.

Or does that assumption only apply to black teenagers?

I would think the assumption would be if you are the one on the ground being hit you do not necessarily have the time or the clarity of mind to reason out if the person hitting you is going to stop.

George Zimmerman thought process when he was on the ground?
Gee the odds are good he will stop,
my head has been hit into the concrete and it does hurt a lot. I wonder how severe the injuries are,I am bleeding but of course they are not life threatening
I shouldn't worry if my head will be hit again because after all teenagers always stop

Now I do realize a lot of posters here are probably very tough and oblivious to pain. They would be not be worried if the person hitting them told them they were going to die. etc.

 

[newyorkguy]

The way I look at the verdict is, the jury presumably disregarded everything that happened prior to the final encounter. Under Florida law that was probably proper.

Under Florida's enhanced Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground, if Zimmerman thought Martin was breaking the law -- or was planning to -- he had the right to take action above and beyond merely calling the police. Once the fight started, no matter why it started or who started it, Zimmerman had the right to use deadly force if HE (Zimmerman) feared great bodily harm. I agree, consistent with the evidence, I too can believe Zimmerman feared great bodily harm.