Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[PhantomWolf]

This bit gave me a giggle. The prosecutor claims that prove that blood wasn't washed off TM by the rain is because GZ had blood on him still. So evidence that there was never blood on TM's hands is that GZ, who was bleeding, had blood on him, whereas TM, who wasn't bleeding, didn't. Is it possible that any blood washed off GZ by rain could have been replaced by more blood from his bleeding wounds? Apparently not in the prosecution's world.

 

[Mumbles]

I'm wondering about the reasoning that justifies characterizing the inconsistencies in GZ's testimony as "lies". Given the overall gist of the narrative, I'd expect GZ's account to have many inconsistences just due to the natural unreliability of testimony from people under stress.

Calling them "lies" seems to be circular to me: We know GZ is lying (not just mistaken) because he really murdered TM. We know he really murdered TM because of all the lies (not mistakes) in his testimony.

Actually, they are seen as lies due to both their blatant falsehood, and their remarkable self-serving nature.as examples:

Zimmerman didn't think to move his car on his own, the police dispatcher asked him to.

He wasn't the aggressive he, Martin showed aggression by...um, coming back and walking around his car before skipping off (this one was just bizarre).

Zimmerman didn't want to leave his car, but the dispatcher required that he give an address.

Zimmerman was not worried that Martin might be nearby, and give this as the reason for not giving out his phone number, instead, he looked and Martin was apparently long gone.

Zimmerman didn't want to be on the move, he even said that the cops could meet him at his truck. You know, the one he didn't know the address to, because he had gone running off.

When the Martin-hulk reappeared from the nonexistent bushes or the shadows or whatever, and immediately tackle-punched Zimmerman, Zimmerman both fell flat on his back, and stumbled forward for several yards.

Zimmerman was so bashed up, having been smothered and having his head bashed into concrete, that he immediately jumped up and tried to restrain Martin, who he thought was still a threat, but was suddenly uninterested in yelling for help about. Also, he had no need whatsoever to go to the hospital, despite having his head bashed against concrete dozens of times.

And also, the Zimmerman's have no money, and Zimmerman himself turned over his only passport. Unless you count that hundred thousand in donations, and that spare passport.

That last one is key. Yu can choose to believe that he just has astonishingly bad memory that just happens to misremember things in a self-serving manner, but I'd consider this to be rather naive. Yes, "liar" is usually a judgement, and I'd say it was wrong if he had made any one mistake that made him look good, along with one that made him look bad. Instead, he seems to be telling falsehoods about nearly everything, and all in a self-serving manner.

 

[eeyore1954]

Originally Posted by eeyore1954
It is not indisputable that it was brought about through his actions alone. Assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth then if Trayvon had simply continued to his dads house there would have been no confrontation or if they did come into contact if Trayvon had told him I am going to my dads house there may have been no fight.

1) assumes facts not in evidence

2) Because teens are obliged to justify where they are to any creepy ass cracker who asks

I am only saying it is not indisputable that it was brought about through his (Zimmerman's) actions alone.

It is not indisputable that Zimmerman is not basically telling the truth. Many parts of his story have been backed up by witnesses and physical evidence. If Zimmerman's story is true then the confrontation was also caused by Trayvon's actions.

 

[sgtbaker]

I just don't get it. People are assuming some incredibly bigoted things about a black teenager, like if you smoke pot, ditch school, and send someone an image of a gun on your cell phone you must be ready to murder some guy you don't know who followed you simply because you saw his gun.

"You're gonna die tonight honkey?" Really? That's credible enough to ignore every lie Zimmerman is clearly caught telling and proclaim, "see, can't prove beyond a doubt"?

A kid with no arrest record beyond graffiti scribbling at school becomes a ready-to-murder-monster at the mere drop of someone-followed-him hat? I can't imagine how afraid some people must be of every black teenager that walks past them at night. Put your hand on that concealed weapon as you walk past those awful black teens, make sure you are safe, those gang-banger black kids are out there ready to murder anyone who looks sideways at them.

The black kid beats and almost kills complete stranger for following him scenario is credible, despite nothing but a stereotype as evidence, while evidence that shows lie after lie after lie is dismissed with a wave of a hand. If you claim self defense and no one saw you kill an unarmed black teenager, well there you go, there must be reasonable doubt.

And those of us who believe the evidence instead of the evidence refuted lies, we're the people with the preconceived beliefs we can't let go of?

None of what you suggest comes close to evidence. You are casting doubt on actual facts like, regardless of how injured you think he is, Zimmerman is the one with the cuts on the back of his head and the bloody nose, the witness with the best view puts Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, assaulting Zimmerman and not even acknowledging Goode when he tells them to stop, he is calling the police, by pointing to race. Those are facts, irrelevant to Trayvon's color. It's possible not because Trayvon is black, it is possible because that is what the evidence shows. You keep referring to "lies" that even the lead detective in the case refers to as normal inconsistencies, as evidence. It's not evidence. Give me something concrete to consider and I will consider it.

I am curious, though, because the only witness that was intended to really support Trayvon has not only been caught actually lying, she admitted to lying, twice. Does that bother you at all? Why are lies only damning to one side?

 

[Giz]

The black kid beats and almost kills complete stranger for following him scenario is credible, despite nothing but a stereotype as evidence,

No evidence other than, only one of them was bruised, suffered a broken nose, was on the bottom getting pounded...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Who can articulate the states theory of what happened ? Anyone ?

Guy: It is physically impossible GZ could have taken out the gun unless TM was getting off of him, or he had backed up so far. He didn't shoot him because he had to, he shot him because he wanted to

ETA: so , although the state has not articulated a complete theory in one shot, it seems part of the theory is not that GZ had the gun out prior to TM being on top of GZ (which the state apparently concedes) is that GZ pulled out the gun after TM gave up.

The question not answered is why was TM giving up before the gun came out ???? How does this make sense ?

An entire court case, and the prosecution still could not tell us what their theory of what happened is.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I just don't get it. People are assuming some incredibly bigoted things about a black teenager, like if you smoke pot, ditch school, and send someone an image of a gun on your cell phone you must be ready to murder some guy you don't know who followed you simply because you saw his gun.

Yeah, that's crazy talk. It's totally bigoted to assume a JD who wants to buy a gun might want to use it to shoot someone

"You're gonna die tonight honkey?" Really? That's credible enough to ignore every lie Zimmerman is clearly caught telling and proclaim, "see, can't prove beyond a doubt"?

No one ever claimed TM said that.

A kid with no arrest record beyond graffiti scribbling at school becomes a ready-to-murder-monster at the mere drop of someone-followed-him hat? I can't imagine how afraid some people must be of every black teenager that walks past them at night. Put your hand on that concealed weapon as you walk past those awful black teens, make sure you are safe, those gang-banger black kids are out there ready to murder anyone who looks sideways at them.

The black kid beats and almost kills complete stranger for following him scenario is credible, despite nothing but a stereotype as evidence, while evidence that shows lie after lie after lie is dismissed with a wave of a hand. If you claim self defense and no one saw you kill an unarmed black teenager, well there you go, there must be reasonable doubt.

And those of us who believe the evidence instead of the evidence refuted lies, we're the people with the preconceived beliefs we can't let go of?

That's a wonderful appeal to emotion. What does it have to do with the state proving beyond a reasonable doubt GZ did not act in self defense ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Actually, they are seen as lies due to both their blatant falsehood, and their remarkable self-serving nature.as examples:

Zimmerman didn't think to move his car on his own, the police dispatcher asked him to.

He wasn't the aggressive he, Martin showed aggression by...um, coming back and walking around his car before skipping off (this one was just bizarre).

Zimmerman didn't want to leave his car, but the dispatcher required that he give an address.

Zimmerman was not worried that Martin might be nearby, and give this as the reason for not giving out his phone number, instead, he looked and Martin was apparently long gone.

Zimmerman didn't want to be on the move, he even said that the cops could meet him at his truck. You know, the one he didn't know the address to, because he had gone running off.

When the Martin-hulk reappeared from the nonexistent bushes or the shadows or whatever, and immediately tackle-punched Zimmerman, Zimmerman both fell flat on his back, and stumbled forward for several yards.

Zimmerman was so bashed up, having been smothered and having his head bashed into concrete, that he immediately jumped up and tried to restrain Martin, who he thought was still a threat, but was suddenly uninterested in yelling for help about. Also, he had no need whatsoever to go to the hospital, despite having his head bashed against concrete dozens of times.

And also, the Zimmerman's have no money, and Zimmerman himself turned over his only passport. Unless you count that hundred thousand in donations, and that spare passport.

That last one is key. Yu can choose to believe that he just has astonishingly bad memory that just happens to misremember things in a self-serving manner, but I'd consider this to be rather naive. Yes, "liar" is usually a judgement, and I'd say it was wrong if he had made any one mistake that made him look good, along with one that made him look bad. Instead, he seems to be telling falsehoods about nearly everything, and all in a self-serving manner.

Key to what ? Proof that he didn't act in self defense ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Jury should be in deliberation by 3:00 or earlier Friday.

Since they have been sequestered for so long, I would imagine they are in a hurry to go home, but have the burden of wanting to appear to the public as if they didn't rush to judgement to matter how quickly they actually come to a consensus.

Even at that, I will make my prediction for not guilty by the end of the day. I don't know if it would be announced today, as I don't know what potential plans the city is making in case of riots or some other reaction to the verdict.

I think manslaughter, even as a compromise verdict, is trumped by the reasonable doubt I think the jurors should have, leading to self-defense and not-guilty.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Actually, they are seen as lies due to both their blatant falsehood, and their remarkable self-serving nature.as examples:

Zimmerman didn't think to move his car on his own, the police dispatcher asked him to.

He wasn't the aggressive he, Martin showed aggression by...um, coming back and walking around his car before skipping off (this one was just bizarre).

Zimmerman didn't want to leave his car, but the dispatcher required that he give an address.

Zimmerman was not worried that Martin might be nearby, and give this as the reason for not giving out his phone number, instead, he looked and Martin was apparently long gone.

Zimmerman didn't want to be on the move, he even said that the cops could meet him at his truck. You know, the one he didn't know the address to, because he had gone running off.

When the Martin-hulk reappeared from the nonexistent bushes or the shadows or whatever, and immediately tackle-punched Zimmerman, Zimmerman both fell flat on his back, and stumbled forward for several yards.

Zimmerman was so bashed up, having been smothered and having his head bashed into concrete, that he immediately jumped up and tried to restrain Martin, who he thought was still a threat, but was suddenly uninterested in yelling for help about. Also, he had no need whatsoever to go to the hospital, despite having his head bashed against concrete dozens of times.

And also, the Zimmerman's have no money, and Zimmerman himself turned over his only passport. Unless you count that hundred thousand in donations, and that spare passport.

That last one is key. Yu can choose to believe that he just has astonishingly bad memory that just happens to misremember things in a self-serving manner, but I'd consider this to be rather naive. Yes, "liar" is usually a judgement, and I'd say it was wrong if he had made any one mistake that made him look good, along with one that made him look bad. Instead, he seems to be telling falsehoods about nearly everything, and all in a self-serving manner.

Excellent summary of the obvious so many people don't want to see the significance of.

It adds to what I said about people. While ignoring these evidence supported facts, they've drawn a half dozen stereotyped conclusion about TM, he was a big scary black kid who would try to murder 'honkey' at the drop of a hat.

Of course, if Zimmerman's lies weren't so dated, he should have said "Crazy Ass Cracker, you're going to die tonight!"

This bit gave me a giggle. The prosecutor claims that prove that blood wasn't washed off TM by the rain is because GZ had blood on him still. So evidence that there was never blood on TM's hands is that GZ, who was bleeding, had blood on him, whereas TM, who wasn't bleeding, didn't. Is it possible that any blood washed off GZ by rain could have been replaced by more blood from his bleeding wounds? Apparently not in the prosecution's world.

Is any of that blood smeared? Any of it dripping down sideways because he was on his back, not upright? Any of it on GZ's hand or sleeve from being wiped off which most people would do with a rain wet face?

Here are the images to refresh your memory.

Picture one, GZ's nose. Notice the one smear on the right side of the mouth. See any other evidence of rain washed off blood?
Notice the blood that is coagulated on the tip of the nose? That blood dripped forward and dried. When did it get there?

Picture two, the back of GZ's head. The blood on GZ's left side drained to the left. It even looks like the middle of the blood trail is wiped off as it would be if GZ was on his back on the grass. Notice the middle blood trail is straight down. Why do these two trails go different directions if the rain washed the blood off and GZ bled again?



A lot of things are possible. The problem is you need MOM's entire list of imaginary things that were possible but which GZ never claimed occurred, and which the evidence does not support, in order to find reasonable doubt.

Of course OMO argues none of those lies matter if at the last minute GZ feared for his life. He argues you don't need to believe GZ, it's all about reasonable doubt.

All those self serving lies, the cop wannabe lingo, the contradictions in claiming he was afraid for his life but never acted afraid, and biggest impossible to swallow lie of the whole case: GZ who goes to the store with a bullet chambered gun in his waistband holster never pulled it out until the last minute, and then he miraculously gets it out from behind his back and under TMs leg, all the while screaming for help, having his nose and mouth covered, and being barely conscious from having his head slammed into the cement.


Common sense says there is no reasonable doubt.

 

[Ziggurat]

and biggest impossible to swallow lie of the whole case: GZ who goes to the store with a bullet chambered gun

You've got to be bloody stupid to NOT have a bullet chambered in a gun that you are carrying for self-defense. The fact that you say this as if it demonstrates malice on GZ's part really only demonstrates your own ignorance about guns.

Common sense says there is no reasonable doubt.

Yup: GZ stalked TM, assaulted TM's fists with his nose, and then shot him, all because... well, just because. Makes perfect sense.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

<snip>

All those self serving lies, the cop wannabe lingo, the contradictions in claiming he was afraid for his life but never acted afraid, and biggest impossible to swallow lie of the whole case: GZ who goes to the store with a bullet chambered gun in his waistband holster never pulled it out until the last minute, and then he miraculously gets it out from behind his back and under TMs leg, all the while screaming for help, having his nose and mouth covered, and being barely conscious from having his head slammed into the cement.

Common sense says there is no reasonable doubt.

As far as "a bullet chambered gun", that was addressed by all manners of experts. That's a correct and proper way to carry it. That you may think it is not does not make it wrong, unbelievable or anything else.

As I posted earlier, although the state has not articulated a complete theory in one shot, it seems part of the theory is not that GZ had the gun out prior to TM being on top of GZ (which the state apparently concedes) is that GZ pulled out the gun after TM gave up.

Guy: It is physically impossible GZ could have taken out the gun unless TM was getting off of him, or he had backed up so far. He didn't shoot him because he had to, he shot him because he wanted to

So, can you explain what you think happened that evening , incorporating the states theory above ?

 

[eeyore1954]

While ignoring these evidence supported facts, they've drawn a half dozen stereotyped conclusion

I find this statement very ironic.

 

[HotNostril]

George was so scared he rolled up his windows when the kid allegedly circled his vehicle. Claims the kid was messing with his waistband, implying the kid was armed. on drugs, suspicious on and on. So what does George do? Gets out and tracks him down in a darker area!

Travon ran. We know he ran. No dispute he ran until Zimmerman makes his tv debut

George was never afraid, he knew it was a teenager. George had a gun and George set the scene. George grabbed that kid because he didn't want the kid to get away. That makes sense. Travon was scared and tried to get away. George was sick and tired of that! Not that night! He lies some more because he knows what he did. Now he claims Travon said, " you're gonna die tonight"

Does anyone really believe that?

There are no muffled screams and they stop the second the gun goes off. The shot that George claims he believed missed.

 

[Mumbles]

About the skipping, there's a sort of show of force or dominance skip...very unlike your regular skipping...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLt5Fdn9ciw

Soo...you're now proposing that Martn danced away from Zimmerman...presumably after the car-circling that never happened?

 

[bynmdsue]

The Black Pampers are out in Sandford passing out their WANTED Dead Or Alive posters.

 

[shuize]

Putting aside the cries for help, this case was effectively over for the prosecution when their own witness put Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him MMA style.

I don't see how a jury could listen to that and conclude there was no reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self defense.

 

[Pooneil]

Yup: GZ stalked TM, assaulted TM's fists with his nose, and then shot him, all because... well, just because. Makes perfect sense.

You forgot "banged the back of his own head on the concrete!"

 

[Mumbles]

Key to what ? Proof that he didn't act in self defense ?

Proof that he is willing to lie, and to have other people lie, in order to serve his supposed best interest. Again, we have a bunch of false statements that are meant to absolve him of any responsibility for the data of Martin...and then he has his wife lie under oath in order to protect his money and passport.

Given all of that, Rachel's testimony (and no, her lying about her age or why she didn't attend Martin's funeral are nowhere near Zimmerman's lies), and the plain physical fact that the fight proceeded towards Martin's residence, rather than Zimmerman's car, why should I believe him at all?

 

[Noztradamus]

Let's take your argument to it's conclusion shall we?

A girl walks through a dark park at night and is attacked by a man who tries to rape her, she shots him. By your argument, she is guilty of his manslaughter because by entering the dark park at night she placed herself in a position of potential danger and if she had stayed to well lit streets then none of it would have happened, thus by your argument, it is indisputable that this girl bought the attempted rape about through her actions alone, and should get manslaughter bought on by her own incompetence.

Really?

Pretty much. This is how it goes

A girl walks through a dark park at night . Following a man. He notices this and asks "Why are you following me?"
She says "what are You doing here?"

Then ... ah heck, just rent Monster (2003) to see how it plays out.