Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

Some posters have gone full conspiracy theory over at CTH.

This, however, was an interesting coincidence. Some of the texts about purchasing a gun that defense wants admitted are to someone named "fruit". Who could that possibly be ?

Christie Dale Smith ‏@BBALLR2 26 Mar 12
East St. Louis Il. The hometown of Travon Martin's father(Tracy "Fruit" Martin),Send out much love, support, praying that justice is served.

Could just be a coincidence. Considering Tracy Martin possessed the phone, refused to provide PIN, could be something more ...

 

[RandFan]

Possible verdicts in the case.

Even If George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty Of Murder And Manslaughter, He Could Still Get 25 Years

To many people, there is no middle ground: George Zimmerman will either be convicted of Second Degree Murder or he will be found Not Guilty.

But the reality is much more complex, because the jury will have a number of Lesser Included Offenses to choose from.

And because of these numerous options, it is not uncommon for a jury to exercise what is known as their “pardon” or “nullification” power and return a compromise verdict that they believe is just under the circumstances.

 

[bynmdsue]

His nickname is "Fruit"? That's terrible.

 

[Skeletor]

Even If George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty Of Murder And Manslaughter, He Could Still Get 25 Years

To many people, there is no middle ground: George Zimmerman will either be convicted of Second Degree Murder or he will be found Not Guilty. But the reality is much more complex, because the jury will have a number of Lesser Included Offenses to choose from.

And because of these numerous options, it is not uncommon for a jury to exercise what is known as their “pardon” or “nullification” power and return a compromise verdict that they believe is just under the circumstances.

The writing on this article is terrible. Either a suspect is guilty or not guilty, of whatever crime the jury decides they're guilty of.

Didn't I read today that GZ has three possible charges that can be brought against him: Murder 2, Manslaughter, and Aggravated Assault. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. The way this article reads, maybe the jury will find GZ guilty of a parking violation instead of manslaughter or murder 2.

 

[WildCat]

Even If George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty Of Murder And Manslaughter, He Could Still Get 25 Years

I haven't seen any evidence so far for a conviction for any lesser charge. The prosecution's case is entirely speculative.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Looks like Donnelly's testimony is staying put...huge win for the defense.

I'd hardly call it huge.

Is the jury really going to care that he heard people scream decades ago in combat? And that somehow makes him skilled to recognize his friend screaming?

Friends and family on both sides say their loved one is screaming.

The prosecutor will point out the more important issue, when the shot is heard the screaming stops. Zimmerman on the other hand said he continued to feel threatened. He turned Martin over and spread his arms out. After that maneuver a witness arrives and GZ begged the witness to help him restrain TM. GZ claims in the police interview he didn't know TM was dead.

Why, if the threat did not stop, would the screaming have stopped with the gunshot? That is a huge hurdle that all the witnesses swearing they know GZ's scream when they hear it can not explain.

That is what the prosecutor said in opening remarks and that is what they will use to rebut that line up of "it's our Georgie" witnesses.

 

[Giz]

Why, if the threat did not stop, would the screaming have stopped with the gunshot? That is a huge hurdle that all the witnesses swearing they know GZ's scream when they hear it can not explain.

That is what the prosecutor said in opening remarks and that is what they will use to rebut that line up of "it's our Georgie" witnesses.

Seems like simple common sense. The assault stops, combined with a load noise, and TM getting off him... so GZ stops screaming. Doesn't mean that he wasn't still worried, or that he instantly knew what effect his shot had made.

If that is the prosecutions big gotcha, then they are headed for a fall.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why, if the threat did not stop, would the screaming have stopped with the gunshot? That is a huge hurdle that all the witnesses swearing they know GZ's scream when they hear it can not explain.

Why is it a huge hurdle? Seems like no real hurdle at all. GZ just shot someone for the first time in his life. That's probably pretty shocking. I wouldn't be surprised it he were pretty much stunned at that point. As for not feeling the threat was over, that doesn't mean he felt that the threat was the same, because even if Trayvon had only been winged, everything still changed the moment the gun went off.

 

[mikedenk]

Why is it a huge hurdle? Seems like no real hurdle at all. GZ just shot someone for the first time in his life. That's probably pretty shocking. I wouldn't be surprised it he were pretty much stunned at that point. As for not feeling the threat was over, that doesn't mean he felt that the threat was the same, because even if Trayvon had only been winged, everything still changed the moment the gun went off.

Exactly. Completely plausible. Unless, of course, you've bought into the narrative that GZ is a vicious murderer with ice water running through his veins.

 

[This is The End]

GZ just shot someone for the first time in his life. That's probably pretty shocking.

I'm not sure where you are getting that GZ thought he shot someone...

GZ specifcially said, entered into evidence in the trial via the Hannity interview, that he did not think that he shot M.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hanni...eorge-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=5

HANNITY: When you think back, there was one report or police report that actually said you didn't know after you fired, you didn't think -- you thought you missed?

ZIMMERMAN: I didn't think I hit him, yes.

I suppose you would like to add the word "at" to your claim that the screaming stopped because "he just shot someone for the first time in his life"?

To make:

"he just shot at someone for the first time in his life"

 

[Ziggurat]

Exactly. Completely plausible. Unless, of course, you've bought into the narrative that GZ is a vicious murderer with ice water running through his veins.

But don't you see? He's such a cold, calculating killer that he knew to act like he was in shock, even though he wasn't. So it was still his screaming... as he repeatedly assaulted Trayvon's fists with his face, in preparation for the fatal shot. He's just that devious!

 

[Ziggurat]

I suppose you would like to add the word "at" to your claim that the screaming stopped because "he just shot someone for the first time in his life"?

To make:

"he just shot at someone for the first time in his life"

Sure, I'll accept the correction.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not sure where you are getting that GZ thought he shot someone...

GZ specifcially said, entered into evidence in the trial via the Hannity interview, that he did not think that he shot M.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hanni...eorge-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=5

I suppose you would like to add the word "at" to your claim that the screaming stopped because "he just shot someone for the first time in his life"?

To make:

"he just shot at someone for the first time in his life"

Ignoring all the posts that are going to get the thread closed again, ...

I think it would have been plausible that the shock of the shot made the shooter stop screaming, if that's what GZ had said. In fact, I thought the witnesses who said they saw a body on the ground and GZ pacing around made sense and would have fit that scenario. I think if you shoot someone, it can make the shooter instantly freak out.

The problem with all these prosecutor scenarios that they've proposed to show doubt, is none of them fit what GZ actually said in the tapes, the walk through and the Hannity interview. And one of the things that doesn't fit is anywhere GZ telling anyone on the tapes that after the shot he stopped screaming.

In fact, he said after the shot he still needed help and was still trying to get someone to help him. GZ doesn't say why the screaming stopped, nor does it fit his story. If he doesn't want to be cross examined, all we have to go on are the recorded statements.

 

[Skeletor]

Witnesses who were not called - Austin Brown and Mary Cutcher. I guess neither side was sure how they'd testify or felt they had credibility problems.

I suppose we'll never know. O'Mara seems confident going forward without those witnesses.

Why is it a huge hurdle? Seems like no real hurdle at all. GZ just shot someone for the first time in his life. That's probably pretty shocking. I wouldn't be surprised it he were pretty much stunned at that point. As for not feeling the threat was over, that doesn't mean he felt that the threat was the same, because even if Trayvon had only been winged, everything still changed the moment the gun went off.

Having known people in the military or the police that have shot, and have killed people...it seems like GZ kept his head level afterward according to witness testimony.

Exactly. Completely plausible. Unless, of course, you've bought into the narrative that GZ is a vicious murderer with ice water running through his veins.

"- At the time Zimmerman shot him he displayed ill-will, spite or hatred (aka "depraved mind")"
Were these the words you were searching for?

But don't you see? He's such a cold, calculating killer that he knew to act like he was in shock, even though he wasn't. So it was still his screaming... as he repeatedly assaulted Trayvon's fists with his face, in preparation for the fatal shot. He's just that devious!

Wow...you sure you weren't on the prosecution's rebuttal witness list? I think you solved this crime.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ignoring all the posts that are going to get the thread closed again, ...

I think it would have been plausible that the shock of the shot made the shooter stop screaming, if that's what GZ had said. In fact, I thought the witnesses who said they saw a body on the ground and GZ pacing around made sense and would have fit that scenario. I think if you shoot someone, it can make the shooter instantly freak out.

The problem with all these prosecutor scenarios that they've proposed to show doubt, is none of them fit what GZ actually said in the tapes, the walk through and the Hannity interview. And one of the things that doesn't fit is anywhere GZ telling anyone on the tapes that after the shot he stopped screaming.

That's pretty weak sauce. You're basically doubting his version because he didn't include one particular detail. Not because he refused to say, not because he said something that contradicts the evidence on that point, but merely because... it didn't come up?

Do you expect a jury to convict on this basis? I really don't get where you think this is line of reasoning is going to end. Are we honestly to believe that it was Trayvon screaming as George pummeled Trayvon's fists with his face from below? You think that's more plausible?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Zig, there's no point. I see the evidence and I see a dozen holes in GZ's story. The screaming stopping at the sound of the gunshot is only one of those dozens of holes. Every story the defense gives to cast doubt on the State's case depends on ignoring yet another hole in GZ's account of what happened.

 

[Ziggurat]

Zig, there's no point. I see the evidence and I see a dozen holes in GZ's story.

This isn't one of them. It's an imagined hole. As for other holes, 1) human memory is pretty crappy, and 2) even if he's lying, that doesn't mean he committed a crime.

And it's peculiar that you can only see holes in GZ's story, and not in various prosecution witness stories. Or, hell, the entire process by which this travesty ended up at trial.

Every story the defense gives to cast doubt on the State's case depends on ignoring yet another hole in GZ's account of what happened.

That's simply not true. To start with, the state doesn't even have a case for murder 2. Seriously, it presented nothing that could remotely be considered evidence of a "depraved mind".

The evidence indicates Trayvon was on top of George when the shot took place. Trayvon hit George, hard, in the face. George inflicted no injuries to Trayvon prior to the single gunshot (unless you count all that damage his face did to Trayvon's knuckles). Given these rather simple facts, how can anyone NOT conclude that there's reasonable doubt that this was self defense? Because that's the standard for the trial: not what you suspect might have happened, not even what the preponderance of evidence indicates, but what the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt happened. And they simply have not proven that it wasn't self-defense. Not even in the slightest.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Zig, there's no point. I see the evidence and I see a dozen holes in GZ's story. The screaming stopping at the sound of the gunshot is only one of those dozens of holes. Every story the defense gives to cast doubt on the State's case depends on ignoring yet another hole in GZ's account of what happened.

The trouble is that GZ's can have as many holes in it as a colander, the State still has to prove their claims beyond reasonable doubt. They haven't even gotten close. You seem to be of the opinion that it is up to the defendant to prove himself innocent. Doesn't work that way.

 

[eeyore1954]

I'd hardly call it huge.

Is the jury really going to care that he heard people scream decades ago in combat? And that somehow makes him skilled to recognize his friend screaming?

Friends and family on both sides say their loved one is screaming.

The prosecutor will point out the more important issue, when the shot is heard the screaming stops. Zimmerman on the other hand said he continued to feel threatened. He turned Martin over and spread his arms out. After that maneuver a witness arrives and GZ begged the witness to help him restrain TM. GZ claims in the police interview he didn't know TM was dead.

Why, if the threat did not stop, would the screaming have stopped with the gunshot? That is a huge hurdle that all the witnesses swearing they know GZ's scream when they hear it can not explain.

That is what the prosecutor said in opening remarks and that is what they will use to rebut that line up of "it's our Georgie" witnesses.

You really believe Zimmerman would have continued screaming after the shot?

 

[Cainkane1]

Zimmermans going to walk. Hopefully law enforcement will be able to contain the civil unrest fllowing Zimmermans acquital.

I'm not saying this si right but the evidence proves Travon attacked him and would have injured Zimmerman had he not been shot.

Zimmerman was stupid not to follow the watchgroups protocol and the 911 operators instructions which clearly state that you only report suspicious activity and not take any action of your own.

I feel that Zimmerman is morally but not legally responsible for Travons death.