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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Boy you are asking him to walk Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell




I'm betting that the difference is when the police formally say the person is a suspect. At least that's when it occurs at the time. Later the SC may rule that someone should have been a suspect and not allow the fruits of the improper (never illegal) behavior.

Mach has explained it is the PM who formally stamps 'suspect' on peoples' foreheads.

Did the SC say anything about them not transcribing or recording the interrogations.
Funnily enough, we have our best people working on finding that ruling right now but so far nobody seems to have seen it. It is referred to in Hellman thus so if anyone can turn it up, great! :)

H-Z section 4 said:
This Corte di Assise di Appello, while confirming the procedural ruling [ordinanza] of the first-level Corte di Assise on this point, has nevertheless specified that, while they are usable with respect to the crime of calumny against Patrick Lumumba, they cannot be usable with respect to the other crimes against Meredith Kercher to the extent that, as the Corte di Cassazione has also confirmed (ruling no. 990/08, dated 4-01-2008), they are subject to absolute nullification in this regard [sono affetti, sotto questo profilo, da nullità assoluta], as having been given in the absence of an attorney by a person who had already assumed the role of a suspect [indagata].

ETA Grinder - I said 'substantive' difference, not 'formal'. Form, substance - know what I mean?
 
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Mach

Would you mind telling your friends in other places that you are the one who says Amanda was already 'strongly suspected' before the interrogations began on 05-06 Nov? They seem to have got themselves into a lather about it as though it was my idea. I have to say, though, I am right behind you on this and regard it as a major breakthrough on your part.

I would be interested to know of any substantive difference between a 'strongly suspected person' and a 'formal suspect'. I am bound to admit, I cannot really see any meaningful distinction. Being a suspect just means the cops think you did it and the laws of most places reflect the resulting need to protect you from the type of abuse such as happened here.

Any help would be appreciated, as they are saying over there I don't know the difference between a witness interview and a custodial interrogation*. I would be grateful if you could help clear this up.


* a misnomer as interrogation of a suspect does not require that the suspect be in custody or even under arrest. I understand that much so no need to address it. Thanks.

"Strongly suspected person" means they have reason to believe you've been bought off by the Masons.

"Formal Suspect" means they have the receipts.
 
ETA Grinder - I said 'substantive' difference, not 'formal'. Form, substance - know what I mean?

Yes, I do. It seems to me that Mach in the past has basically, in his straight to the point manner, said that it substantive when it is formal. The PM is the head of the investigation, so sort of becomes part of the police, including wielding the suspect stamp.

There is no way that any reasonable reading of the word suspect would leave Patrick less than a suspect after being arrested at 6 in morning. Perhaps he wasn't arrested but brought in for some classification such as person of really, really big interest.
 
Yes, I do. It seems to me that Mach in the past has basically, in his straight to the point manner, said that it substantive when it is formal. The PM is the head of the investigation, so sort of becomes part of the police, including wielding the suspect stamp.

There is no way that any reasonable reading of the word suspect would leave Patrick less than a suspect after being arrested at 6 in morning. Perhaps he wasn't arrested but brought in for some classification such as person of really, really big interest.

Perhaps. It may be the cops deserve our sympathy in being lumbered with a system so complicated only one with the brains of a Galati can understand it. Amanda reports they high-fived when she signed the 1.45 doc. I suspect this was relief at finally being able to put an end to her quantum uncertainty state, like that cat in a box.
 
Mach has explained it is the PM who formally stamps 'suspect' on peoples' foreheads.


Funnily enough, we have our best people working on finding that ruling right now but so far nobody seems to have seen it. It is referred to in Hellman thus so if anyone can turn it up, great! :)



ETA Grinder - I said 'substantive' difference, not 'formal'. Form, substance - know what I mean?

No date on this one but my guess is it is the droid you are looking for.
 

Attachments

Hmm, thanks Rose. Not encouraged to find it's called 'Rudy SC text Italian'. If you happen to have run it through the Babel fish I could use a copy of the result.

It covered the preventive detention appeal of all three of them and contains wording on the statements. will post a googlefu in a moment.
 
It covered the preventive detention appeal of all three of them and contains wording on the statements. will post a googlefu in a moment.

Grazie mille

What would clear it up would be if it had a case number and that case number matched the one Hellman cited as I just quoted above.
 
Hmmm. Probably should rename this one.

Yes, I agree. I would suggest calling it: Cassazione no. 990/08, dated 4-01-2008 (which is what Hellman calls it) but that would then leave it open whether it was dated 1st April or 4th January. Since Kompo translated it and Kompo is American I am going to assume the wacko American dating system has been used and intend to call it

Cassazione no. 990/08, 01 Apr 2008

It has nothing to do with Rudy at all. It is an unsuccessful appeal from a decision made on 30 Nov 2007 to prolong A & R's preventive detention. The bit we are interested in reads as follows (I have started translating and then abandoned the attempt some of the google translation and interspersed some comments in brackets):

With reference to the second complaint [e.[/I] use of 1.45, 5.45 and memoriale against Amanda], the Court notes that the defensive indizianti statements are characterized by a different regime in terms of subjective usability.

Where they come from the person by whom there were already indications concerning the same crime or offense [i.e. suspects] related to or connected with that attributed to the third the same can not be used not only against himself, even against the same defendants crime [or defendants of crimes related to or connected). [cannot be used against the suspect or other suspects]

The system of absolute uselessness of Article. 63, second paragraph, cpp, operates instead, to exclude cases in which the registrant is asked to respond in the same or another process, for a crime or crimes attributed to third parties, which have no connection with the case for which shall, in respect of which he assumes the status of a witness. [this strikes me as a bizarre interpretation of Article 63 paragraph 2 - see below]

In fact, in the first case, by virtue of the intimate connection and interdependence between themselves and the fact that others also arises the need to protect the right to silence of the registrant, in the second case, however, the position of alienation and indifference by the declarant compared to the facts of the case makes it immune from any manipulation made by the investigative bodies (Court of Cassation, Sec. A. February 13, 1997, Carpanelli).

The light of those principles, the statements made by AMK at 1.45 on 6 November, 2007, of which the report was suspended and she was placed at the
disposal of the judicial proceeding, emerging evidence against her, are can only be used against alios, while "spontaneous declarations" of 5.54 hours or can not be used against the suspect or against other persons accused of complicity in that crime, without the guarantees made as part of a defensive person who had already formally assumed the role of suspect.

Instead, a memorial written in English by K. and translated into Italian is fully usable, pursuant to art. 237 Code of Criminal Procedure, because it is derived from asking document, which was the spontaneous author material for defensive purposes. The provision in question provides evidence of attaching importance to document not only in itself and for its representative content, but also under the special bond that links the suspect (or defendant), so highlight the review of eligibility that the court is required to operate.

Google translates article 63 of the criminal code as follows:

1. If in the courts and the judicial police charged a person or a person not subject to investigations makes statements which disclose evidence of guilt against him, the investigating authority shall interrupts the examination, warning that as a result of such statements may be carried out investigations against her and invites her to appoint a defender. The above statements can not be used against the person who made ​​them.

2. If the person was to be heard from the beginning as an accused or person being examined, his statements can not be used.

As I read this, the SC has simply affirmed what these two paragraphs say in simple terms: she was not a suspect at 1.45 but blurted something out that made her one - resulting in what she blurted out not being usable against her (but usable against Lumumba) and, as she was a suspect thereafter, everything she said at 5.45 was unusable against anybody. The memoriale was ruled to be fully usable.

This does rather call into question the basis on which Hellman departed from the SC ruling in saying:

The “spontaneous” statements made by Amanda Knox on November 6, as well as the note [memoriale] subsequently written by her, have been introduced into the trial record.

This Corte di Assise di Appello, while confirming the procedural ruling [ordinanza] of the first-level Corte di Assise on this point, has nevertheless specified that, while they are usable with respect to the crime of calumny against Patrick Lumumba, they cannot be usable with respect to the other crimes against Meredith Kercher to the extent that, as the Corte di Cassazione has also confirmed (ruling no. 990/08, dated 4-01-2008), they are subject to absolute nullification in this regard [sono affetti, sotto questo profilo, da nullità assoluta], as having been given in the absence of an attorney by a person who had already assumed the role of a suspect [indagata].

To be fair to him, I do believe Mach has been trying to tell us all this for some time ... LOL

I am sure I lost something in translation there.
 
What is the rationale for this?

From the point of view of Italian law, why would a memoriale be usable if Amanda had not seen a lawyer? I have always been puzzled by this.
 
From the point of view of Italian law, why would a memoriale be usable if Amanda had not seen a lawyer? I have always been puzzled by this.

I imagine the rationale is that when she is talking to the police or Mignini she is potentially subject to undue influence but when confiding to her notebook she isn't.

The prejudicial way this played out would warm the cockles of the most rabid guilter's heart. Despite being 'unusable' the statements were used before Matteini on 08 Nov and again on 30 Nov and again in the civil claim and again on the calunnia charge but, not to worry, they weren't usable to prove murder (except they are usable to prove she gave a false alibi - cool!).
 
From the point of view of Italian law, why would a memoriale be usable if Amanda had not seen a lawyer? I have always been puzzled by this.

It goes a little something like this, halides1:

Q: Why did the police stop interrogating Amanda once she had implicated Patrick? Why did they seem not interested in knowing any more about the crime?

A: They had to quit interrogating her once she became a suspect, because she didn't have a lawyer.

Q: Then why did Mignini continue with the interrogation?

A: Because Amanda made a spontaneous statement.

Q:
Why did he stop interrogating her once she had once again implicated Patrick? Why did he seem not interested in knowing more about the crime?

A: He had to quit interrogating her, because she didn't have a lawyer.

Q: Why did the police then accept her memoriale, if she still didn't have a lawyer?

A:
Because she made a spontaneous statement.

Q: Why did the police and the prosecutor then not continue to question her about the details of the crime? It is clear from her memoriale that she wanted to keep talking about it.

A: They couldn't. She didn't have a lawyer.
 
Tag teaming – old habits die hard eh

Well, he says he is applying the label to the argument rather than the person. That is a weak line of attack against arguments that have nothing to do with race, but presumably it fits within the bounds of the MA.

In any case, the MA is a poor substitute for the Jedi art of holding one's fingers motionless above the keyboard and not typing anything.
May the force be with you.

Precisely CW, I have always been amused by the borg like reaction (tag teaming) to posts addressing a particular posters argument by all and sundry while the poster in Q refuses to defend his own position.

Indeed your advice could have a broader application to this thread :)

“Say nothing once 648 times – why say it again”
 
Clarity (inside an enigma wrapped up in a sheet)

Platonov,

Let me clarify this one more time: Even Rudy (the sole rapist and murderer) deserves protection against double jeopardy. If you have something substantive to say about the SC decision, I may chose to respond to that, but there is nothing more to say about race, as far as I am concerned.

OK - have another go.

I don’t see what double jeopardy has got to do with anything – RG is currently convicted and incarcerated.

You posted that RG should be ‘retried’ for the murder of MK at the same time that the SC quashed the 2 white ‘kids’ acquittals on the charge of murder for which they had received 24 yrs each.

You now claim it was a response to the length (we shall come to that in a moment) of RG’s sentence which was imposed 3 years ago that just struck you at that moment?? And furthermore that you are not proposing to lynch the black guy but you want him tried for burglary or calunnia or something.

If you say so - Its all very confused and the coincidence would startle Randi !



Now as to the length of RGs sentence.
It’s all very complicated much more so than Italian Law or DNA analysis and as it has only been explained 379 times I shall go slowly.

1/3 off for fast track
RG gets 24yrs at his appeal – in line with the sentences handed down at the ‘kids’ trial.
24-8 = 16.



Now lets hear no more about it – this lynching or retrying or whatnot is very upsetting to many posters apparently. One hopes it’s not the lack of this ‘option’ that’s causing the upset. Who knows what strange things the Ivorian might say.
 
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Yes, I agree. I would suggest calling it: Cassazione no. 990/08, dated 4-01-2008 (which is what Hellman calls it) but that would then leave it open whether it was dated 1st April or 4th January. Since Kompo translated it and Kompo is American I am going to assume the wacko American dating system has been used and intend to call it

Cassazione no. 990/08, 01 Apr 2008

It has nothing to do with Rudy at all. It is an unsuccessful appeal from a decision made on 30 Nov 2007 to prolong A & R's preventive detention. The bit we are interested in reads as follows (I have started translating and then abandoned the attempt some of the google translation and interspersed some comments in brackets):



Google translates article 63 of the criminal code as follows:



As I read this, the SC has simply affirmed what these two paragraphs say in simple terms: she was not a suspect at 1.45 but blurted something out that made her one - resulting in what she blurted out not being usable against her (but usable against Lumumba) and, as she was a suspect thereafter, everything she said at 5.45 was unusable against anybody. The memoriale was ruled to be fully usable.

This does rather call into question the basis on which Hellman departed from the SC ruling in saying:



To be fair to him, I do believe Mach has been trying to tell us all this for some time ... LOL

I am sure I lost something in translation there.

Thank you.
 
The ease by which secondary transfer occurs

Some time ago, I posted a comment to a message board devoted to Eric Frimpong's defense. Mr. Frimpong was convicted of rape largely on the strength of a very small amount of DNA found on a swab of his genitals. That DNA matched the victim. No DNA or semen of his was found on her, but IIUC there was a DNA match to her boyfriend from her body. Mr. Frimpong claimed that the victim fondled him prior to her passing out (from alcohol consumption), and IIRC he made this claim prior to the DNA results being made known. I think that secondary transfer is also a plausible explanation. I am reposting my comment from the other message board here (highlighting mine):

Quote
Forensic scientist Suzanna Ryan wrote, “An example of how secondary transfer could conceivably affect the interpretation of a case was illustrated by Sarah Jones and Kirsty Scott of the SPSA Forensic Services (Aberdeen) during the Body Fluids Conference Jointly hosted by the Forensic Science Society & the Centre for Forensic Investigation, University of Teesside and reported in Science and Justice 50 (2010). Jones and Scott performed experiments to determine if non-intimate contact could result in the transfer of DNA to a male volunteer’s underwear and penis. Of three scenarios reported, one resulted in the transfer of the female volunteers’ DNA to both the underwear (33% of the samples) and penis (67% of the samples) of the male volunteers even though no direct contact from the female to the male had occurred. The scenario involved 1 minute of face-touching, 3 minutes of handholding and immediate urination by the male. However, when a 15 minute period was introduced between the non-intimate contact and urination, no female DNA was detected on either the underwear or penis of the male volunteers.” To make a long story short, I think it is possible that the [victim's] DNA arrived via secondary transfer.
Endquote

The fact that DNA also was found on the underwear of the subjects suggests another pathway of DNA transfer in this case, namely that Ms. Kercher and Mr. Sollecito might have hugged, then Ms. Kercher could have transferred DNA to the bra clasp. Some weeks ago, I found a citation that discussed unknown DNA profiles that are found in clothing, DNA from people other than the immediate family of the subjects of this study.
EDT
I found an interesting quote from the discussion by S. Jones and K. Scott in "Science and Justice 50 (2010) 100–109. They wrote, "From the underwear, a large amount of unknown DNA was also detected, so in later experiments the underwear was UV cross-linked to remove any contamination." This observation also suggests that clothing is a metaphorical magnet for DNA.
 
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