Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Now we know why they didn't file this case immediately.

 

[KatieG]

The case wasn't filed immediately because there was very little initial investigation.

 

[WildCat]

That witness actually contradicts what Zimmerman claimed multiple times:

None of that contradicts Lauer's statement. She heard it, she didn't see it. She describes hearing a fight going from the T down the spot where Martin's body was found. Zimmerman says he was attacked at the T, and then the fight lasted for a bit before he shot him.

So yes, the witness testimony does explain how the altercation moved from the T to where Martin's body was found. But it doesn't explain why Zimmerman ommitted that detail in several of his initial accounts.

Why would Zimmerman know how far the fight moved while it was taking place? You certainly don't pay attention to such things, not even to remember later. A fight demands 100% of a person's attention while it occurs.

 

[MikeMangum]

Even if Zimmerman's story is true -- and there are plenty of questions -- the key issue is whether it was justifiable for Zimmerman to use deadly force in the circumstances. In order to answer yes, you have to believe that it was reasonable for Zimmerman to believe that he was in fear for his life or grave bodily injury. I have a hard time believing that an adult man who had worked as a bar bouncer and had police and martial arts training was scared to death of an unarmed teenager and that he was helpless. It's also hard to believe that TM was slamming his head on the ground (not so easy against a resisting victim) AND covering his mouth AND punching him AND reaching for his gun.

Stop. Right there. I have no idea who started the confrontation, and I have no idea who was on top of whom, but if a person is on the ground on their back, with someone else on top of them and punching them, that person is in mortal peril. Full stop.

1) The person on the bottom has no leverage, and leverage is much more important than strength.

2) Punches in that situation are much, much more damaging than punches with the two fighters both standing up, for two reasons. First, the person on top is able to use body weight to add more power to punches simply because he is punching down and is aided by gravity. Secondly, (and this addresses your question of how someone could both punch and hit someone's head against the ground) the head of the person on the bottom can't recoil. When someone standing up gets punched in the head, their head snaps back, dissipating some of the force of the blow. When their head is on the ground, however, it can't recoil from the blow. The head takes damage at the source of the strike and on the underside where it is driven into the ground/concrete/asphalt.

If someone is on the ground, on their back, and being punched in the face, they are simultaneously being punched in the face and having their head smashed into the ground. Even if the person on top is not trying to cause fatal damage, they very easily can.

 

[LTC8K6]

The case wasn't filed immediately because there was very little initial investigation.

IIRC, the records show that SPD did a good initial investigation.

 

[Dancing David]

Go read the entire other thread where it's been discussed ad nauseum. If you're new to the case, you should catch up a bit.

Thanks, that is a great response, maybe we should ask for a sticky.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

The case wasn't filed immediately because there was very little initial investigation.

lol. Originally many claimed that the investigation was a sham or wasn't done. Then when the facts came out it was discovered that the investigation was in fact pretty darn good, and even bringing in the FBI appeared to bring in no new evidence of significance (correct me if I'm wrong). Then as the facts came out that the one investigator wanted to charge GZ suddenly some said "well the investigation was quite good but the prosecutor wouldn't let him charge him".

Now I guess we're back to "there was very little investigation".

 

[johnny karate]

None of that contradicts Lauer's statement. She heard it, she didn't see it. She describes hearing a fight going from the T down the spot where Martin's body was found. Zimmerman says he was attacked at the T, and then the fight lasted for a bit before he shot him.

Why would Zimmerman know how far the fight moved while it was taking place? You certainly don't pay attention to such things, not even to remember later. A fight demands 100% of a person's attention while it occurs.

Zimmerman describes - multiple times - being punched and immediately going down onto his back, with Martin then getting on top of him. He claimed to be near the T walking back to his truck when this happened.

The witness testified that she heard the fight moving from T to the spot where Martin's body was found.

Those two accounts are at odds with one another. A fight cannot move if one of the participants has the other pinned to the ground on his back.

The witness did not corroborate Zimmerman's account, she contradicted it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Zimmerman describes - multiple times - being punched and immediately going down onto his back, with Martin then getting on top of him. He claimed to be near the T walking back to his truck when this happened.

The witness testified that she heard the fight moving from T to the spot where Martin's body was found.

Those two accounts are at odds with one another. A fight cannot move if one of the participants has the other pinned to the ground on his back.

The witness did not corroborate Zimmerman's account, she contradicted it.

Whether GZ backed away from TM with TM crowding him, before TM punched him, doesn't seem like a big deal. GZ might easily account for some movement, imo. Let's wait and see if he does.

Being sucker punched could easily account for not remembering a scuffle just before.

 

[WildCat]

Zimmerman describes - multiple times - being punched and immediately going down onto his back, with Martin then getting on top of him. He claimed to be near the T walking back to his truck when this happened.

The witness testified that she heard the fight moving from T to the spot where Martin's body was found.

Those two accounts are at odds with one another. A fight cannot move if one of the participants has the other pinned to the ground on his back.

The witness did not corroborate Zimmerman's account, she contradicted it.

It meshes fine with Zimmerman's account. Someone who just got punched in the face and was in a fight isn't going to be able to tell you much about it.

Zimmerman, after all, doesn't deny that Martin was shot almost right where his body was found. And he says it started at the T - just as Lauer describes. They both agree the fight started at the T and ended where Martin's body was found.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The case wasn't filed immediately because there was very little initial investigation.

 

[johnny karate]

Whether GZ backed away from TM with TM crowding him, before TM punched him, doesn't seem like a big deal. GZ can easily account for for it, imo. Let's wait and see if he does.

It kind of is a big deal, because according to his account Zimmerman was backing up, and in the opposite direction from where the altercation ended up.

This witness - like the other prosecution witnesses - are clearly making the case that, contrary to what Zimmerman claimed, he was an active participant in a fight as opposed to the helpless victim of an assault.

 

[Giz]

The case wasn't filed immediately because there was very little initial investigation.

Apart from the interviews, walkthroughs, forensics etc...

 

[LTC8K6]

It meshes fine with Zimmerman's account. Someone who just got punched in the face and was in a fight isn't going to be able to tell you much about it.

Zimmerman, after all, doesn't deny that Martin was shot almost right where his body was found. And he says it started at the T - just as Lauer describes. They both agree the fight started at the T and ended where Martin's body was found.

It's entirely believable that the punch and the head banging left GZ fuzzy about the time just before, imo.

 

[LTC8K6]

It kind of is a big deal, because according to his account Zimmerman was backing up, and in the opposite direction from where the altercation ended up.

This witness - like the other prosecution witnesses - are clearly making the case that, contrary to what Zimmerman claimed, he was an active participant in a fight as opposed to the helpless victim of an assault.

"I was punched in the face repeatedly, and my head was banged on the concrete repeatedly, so I admit I'm not entirely clear on the time just prior to being attacked."

 

[WildCat]

It kind of is a big deal, because according to his account Zimmerman was backing up, and in the opposite direction from where the altercation ended up.

This witness - like the other prosecution witnesses - are clearly making the case that, contrary to what Zimmerman claimed, he was an active participant in a fight as opposed to the helpless victim of an assault.

No injuries on Martin other than the gunshot wound, this is the guy the prosecution claims is screaming for his life while beating up Zimmerman.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

lol. Originally many claimed that the investigation was a sham or wasn't done. Then when the facts came out it was discovered that the investigation was in fact pretty darn good, and even bringing in the FBI appeared to bring in no new evidence of significance (correct me if I'm wrong). Then as the facts came out that the one investigator wanted to charge GZ suddenly some said "well the investigation was quite good but the prosecutor wouldn't let him charge him".

Now I guess we're back to "there was very little investigation".

"There was very little investigation" means that the State didn't find him guilty and hang him immediately.

 

[johnny karate]

It meshes fine with Zimmerman's account. Someone who just got punched in the face and was in a fight isn't going to be able to tell you much about it.

Zimmerman told us plenty about the fight, and it doesn't comport with what witnesses are now telling us they saw and heard.

Zimmerman, after all, doesn't deny that Martin was shot almost right where his body was found. And he says it started at the T - just as Lauer describes. They both agree the fight started at the T and ended where Martin's body was found.

The statements I quoted from Zimmerman are not in agreement to what this - and the other witnesses - have testified. That's the point, and that's why they're witnesses for the prosecution.

 

[BenBurch]

Case not filed immediately goes down to three things;

1. Lack of any witness who could say what happened with certainty.
2. The claim of self defense seemed reasonable if you assumed Martin was a thug.
3. The race of the victim immediately made him the perp to those in charge of the case.

 

[WildCat]

Case not filed immediately goes down to three four things;

1. Lack of any witness who could say what happened with certainty.
2. The claim of self defense seemed reasonable if you assumed Martin was a thug.
3. The race of the victim immediately made him the perp to those in charge of the case.
4. There was no crime.

ftfy