Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

In fact, these lamps are on the other side of the cottage too; they illuminate Filomena's window (not well, they are very weak). But that one that you show won't illuminate the balcony. Among other things, because it's obviously too low; you need a light at some level above the balcony or you will have a shadow. Yes, anyway I definitely think the balcony would be more hidden and protected than Filomena's window regardless of whether these garden lamps are on or off. I think there is no question about which is the logical point of entry.

The logical point of entry is the house on the other side of Perugia that has more than just a few hundred euros of rent money hidden in a sock drawer. Why didn't Rudy break into that house?

There was no entry through the balcony on the night Meredith was murdered. There is no evidence that anyone there that night even considered the balcony as a viable entry point. Even if the kitchen window had been left open that night, the balcony was not in play.

We cannot say why Rudy didn't choose the balcony route but we can speculate. For me, it is the exposure to potential occupants inside. Rudy had recently experienced what happens when you try to burgle a place that is occupied. You could try ringing the doorbell. But many people will choose to ignore a doorbell if they are already in bed. But nobody is going to ignore a huge rock smashing through a window and crashing onto the floor. They may call the police or turn on a light or peak out a window or something, but eventually there will be an indication of occupancy.

While entry through Filomena's window would be an impossible task for the likes of Mignini, it is quite doable for someone in reasonable shape like Rudy Guede.

 

[bri1]

Maybe Volturno is lying. He's a cop isn't he, he's Italian isn't he, I thought that's all you guys needed.

I also don't see anything in you link related to Quintavalle but I did read this :

The recordings also revealed a plan by the Sollecito family to interfere with the investigation by enlisting the broadcaster Telenorba and the newspaper Panorama to leak evidence including images of Meredith's naked body. The Sollecito family would eventually be charged related to these acts but after successfully arguing for a change of venue to Bari the Bari prosecutor refused to proceed. The Sollecito's would later be implicated in another allegation of interference when Prison Informants stated that they were paid by Sollecito's family to lie at trial and cause confusion.

Some of that I did know, but some I did not. I was always told by PIPs that all the trial leakage to the press was from the prosecution, but I guess not.

This has been in the open for some time.... The Sollecitos were as horrified as anyone would be watching mistake after mistake in the crime scene videos and gave them to the TV company thinking they'd have enough decency to concentrate on those mistakes, rather than be as morbid and sensationalist as to broadcast the more delicate aspects of the scene such as Meredith's body. They were wrong to think this, but in my opinion right to get that into the public domain after the egregious smears and leaks that ILE had been responsible for.

 

[Dan O.]

No? I think yes, I can indeed.
This is what I understood when I read statements De Felice - I never understood he was claiming they knew the name of Patrick before Knox's accusation. This content does not belong to De Felice declarations.
As always, the innocentisti attempt to work out "facts" out of material they don't even know. I guess you don't even have recordings of the press conference and not even citations of it (and I guess you won't be able to read it, given your misinterpreatation).

Do the Italian police/prosecutor ever actually state that they did not know the name of Patrick before November 6th? This is an unacceptable position because they had all the information they needed to trace the owner of the text exchange. If they didn't intend to use that information, why did they *********** request it?

 

[Antony]

The Sollecito family would eventually be charged related to these acts but after successfully arguing for a change of venue to Bari the Bari prosecutor refused to proceed.

Why do you think the Bari prosecutor refused to proceed? My reading is that outside of Perugia, he recognised that the charges had no merit.

The Sollecito's would later be implicated in another allegation of interference when Prison Informants stated that they were paid by Sollecito's family to lie at trial and cause confusion.

In other words, more gossip.

 

[bri1]

I find your inability to note your misuse of the term 'clinical expertise' arrogant.

And no - as I've JUST pointed out - knowledge is NOT the result of experience! Knowledge is aquired through a learning process which can include - but does not intrinsically require - the sort of direct lived experience you are trying to claim it does. There is no experience = therefore learning. Experience without learning is simply repetition.

Stop changing your arguements halfway through - you've been told this before.

Also, my 'condescendence' is not direspectful as disrespect requires there be a need for the respect in the first place. You attempted to use your limited lived experience as evidence of how sleep deprived people behave. Amongst this, you claimed sleep deprived people are always sleep seeking. Unfortunetly for you, sleep avoidance and other behavioural issues are front and centre issues in dealing with sleep deprivation. There's even a specific name for it - behaviorally induced insufficient sleep syndrome.

Mach,
Clinical expertise does involve having hands-on, practical experience of a particular medical or psychological problem, but it is ALWAYS preceded by a period of theoretical learning, so that observations within the clinical environment can be interpreted correctly. So, have you completed such a period of theoretical learning in sleep disorders? It would have to be at an accredited institution where you earned a (preferably internationally recognised) qualification, in order for you to be able to call yourself a clinical expert.

 

[Dan O.]

Yes thanks that's my point Sollecito was the regular customer who Q knew . Amanda had only been in a two times and with Sollecito.He was asked about Sollecito who he was familiar with. Seeing Amanda without him early in the morning, it is quite natural that he didn't make the connection. He'd only seen her twice and never alone. She stood out not as the girl Sollecito was with but memorable because of the early hour. He was able to recall some things about her and the fact she didn't purchase anything.

Have you got a different source for facts than the rest of the world?

AP - Quintavalle said he did not know if Knox bought anything because he was not at the cash register that morning.​

Telegraph - “I can’t remember if she bought anything. A few hours later I heard about the murder and then a few days later I saw Amanda’s picture in the newspaper and I recognised her as the same girl.”​

And then there is Oreste Volturno showing him pictures and asking questions and that memory has gone bye-bye.

 

[codyjuneau]

From David Grann's article in The New Yorker
Quote
The witnesses’ testimony also grew more damning after authorities had concluded, in the beginning of January, 1992, that Willingham was likely guilty of murder. In Diane Barbee’s initial statement to authorities, she had portrayed Willingham as “hysterical,” and described the front of the house exploding. But on January 4th, after arson investigators began suspecting Willingham of murder, Barbee suggested that he could have gone back inside to rescue his children, for at the outset she had seen only “smoke coming from out of the front of the house”—smoke that was not “real thick.”

An even starker shift occurred with Father Monaghan’s testimony. In his first statement, he had depicted Willingham as a devastated father who had to be repeatedly restrained from risking his life. Yet, as investigators were preparing to arrest Willingham, he concluded that Willingham had been too emotional (“He seemed to have the type of distress that a woman who had given birth would have upon seeing her children die”); and he expressed a “gut feeling” that Willingham had “something to do with the setting of the fire.”
Endquote

The problem is that witnesses change their testimony to conform to their beliefs. In addition, if Quintavalle said that he was not interviewed when he was, that puts yet another dent into his credibility.

.
I watched the new PBS documentary 'The Central Park Five', where 4 out of 5 innocent young men were coerced into confessing to a crime they did not do. One of the lawyers made a comment that struck me as very signficiant. He said a confession influences EVERYTHING, witness testimony, everything. I will try to get the exact quote if I get a chance to watch it again.
.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Central Park Five documentary

Codyjuneau, I seem to recall it was Saul Kassin who said that, but I may be mistaken.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Quintavalle's interview

I disagree. His motive would be important in giving his testimony.

Was he paid for his interview? Why did he not remember it?

 

[RoseMontague]

Really how detailed must things be pointed out to you? The picture wasn't published but the press had access to police information and the reporter worked on Q for weeks to come forward. The reporter could have fed him the info directly or asked if she were wearing jeans, orange scarf and a grey coat.

As usual you pass over the more important details such as the fact that a detective asked about what he saw the night and morning after the murder and he said nothing. After Amanda and Raf are arrested and their pictures are again in the papers he says nothing.'

One year later just before or after they are charged he suddenly is willing to do a TV interview and come forward.

ETA - Rose wrote - The police inspector showed him pictures just a few days after the murder and he didn't remember. He claims he was not interviewed and the defense plays his TV interview in court and Massei ignores it. A year later he remembers each article of clothing she wore. Yeah right.

"Volturno's service record shows he questioned Quintavalle on November 19, 2007. The record makes it clear that Quintavalle was shown photos of Amanda and Raffaele and he said they had been to his store two or so times but not on November 2nd. and they were always together. The record indicates that Volturno spoke with Quintavalle and then his two employees. On March 21, 2009 Volturno testifies to the same."

Read Volturno here

Thanks Grinder. So there was plenty of time after the arrest of Amanda and Raffaele for him to have seen them in papers and on the news, yet when shown the pictures on 19 November he did not remember seeing them on 2 November and they were always together.

 

[RoseMontague]

Interesting reading the testimony of Volturno. He certainly seemed focused on digging up some dirt. It seems to me to be remarkable that he was not able to get Mr. Memory to remember at that point in time. I have added on a Google translation to his testimony beginning on page 22 for those that are interested (attached).

 

[Briars]

They are, however, the sort of pictures that might make it into the possession of a journalist, who could concievably show them to potential witnesses to ask if they'd seen someone like Knox wearing something 'like this'.

Having said that, the cap doesn't appear, and the scarf looks more brown. Either way, Quintaville basically guessed that Knox was wearing autumnal colours in the middle of autumn. Hardly a genius.

LOL standard grey jacket and brown scarf uniform

 

[anglolawyer]

Motiveless murder

Grinder

Would you class this as a motiveless murder?

A church organist was battered to death by two laughing killers out hunting for a victim on Christmas Eve, a court heard.

Alan Greaves, 68, was “savagely” beaten as he walked to midnight mass last year. He died three days later in hospital from “grave and catastrophic” head injuries.

A jury heard Ashley Foster and Jonathan Bowling, both 22, had been drinking Barcardi and coke and lager for hours before prowling the streets looking for a target.

“If it had not been Mr Greaves it would have been someone else,” Prosecutor Robert Smith QC, told Sheffield crown court.

The grandfather and father-of-four was attacked with a pickaxe handle and what is thought to have been a hammer, a jury heard.

This is a typically mindless British case, but not motiveless in my opinion. However, I would appreciate your take since you attack Bill for bringing up motive all the time and assert there doesn't have to be one. With respect, I think you are confusing this question with the different one of whether a motive must be proved.

 

[christianahannah]

Interesting reading the testimony of Volturno. He certainly seemed focused on digging up some dirt. It seems to me to be remarkable that he was not able to get Mr. Memory to remember at that point in time. I have added on a Google translation to his testimony beginning on page 22 for those that are interested (attached).

Well, Mr. (Memory) Quintavalle did remember that neither Raffaele nor Amanda had been in the days before or days after Meredith's murder to purchase bleach - the question which he was asked.

 

[Grinder]

Maybe Volturno is lying. He's a cop isn't he, he's Italian isn't he, I thought that's all you guys needed.

I also don't see anything in you link related to Quintavalle but I did read this :

I gave you a pro guilt site that conveniently leaves out a summary of Volturno's conversation with Quintavalle but the entire testimony is there in Italian.

 

[Briars]

briars

So Antonio Curatolo is outside, in the open,
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img827/9349/mqb3.jpg[/qimg]

kickin' it on his park bench, high on heroin,


[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img163/7640/yn1m.jpg[/qimg]

reading the local newspaper.
Cool...


Miss Meredith Kercher is nearby,
just returned home+inside her flat,
presumably all alone when she entered,
closed+locked her front door on that chilly November night,
wouldn't you agree?

I would like to think that Meredith,
with a borrowed history book, was gettin' ready to study,
as she musta absent mindedly thought that she, as did her other English gal pals,
had class tomorrow morning, even though it was a holiday...

But strangely, after closing+locking her front door,
Mez never took off her jacket, turned on her heater,
nor made herself a cup of hot tea, nor a cup of hot coffee on that chilly night,
ya know, to keep her mental mind wide awake as she studied.
Weird...



Anyways, when Miss Kercher had a large knife bruatlly stabbed into her throat, she supposedly let out a very loud scream.
1 that was supposedly heard by a coupla different gals, right?

But how loud was The Scream?
If 3 people were holding her,
I kinda doubt Meredith was able to cup her hands together,
place 'em around her mouth and then scream...

According to the prosecution,
Filomena, her friend, housemate+landlord,
had her bedroom window broken AFTER Meredith was slain, correct?
Ya know, to stage the crime scene+throw investigators off the trail, right?


So how the heck did Nara, who was inside her own apartment quite a ways away, with all her own windows closed too, hear a scream coming from a house that was not next door to her own, a flat that had it's front door closed and had all the windows shut?
Where I live,
I can barely hear the neighbors loudly arguing', right next door some 20 feet away,
after they shut their windows! Can you hear your own neighbors argue?
Or scream from inside their house, apartment, flat with the doors+windows closed?


How come ol' Antonio Curatolo,
high on heroin+kickin' it outside on his park bench late at night,

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img407/2190/jtei.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img829/2299/maln.jpg[/qimg]

DID NOT HEAR this same scream?
Didn't he hear some people that he thinks were Raff+Amanda just arguin'?
Weird how he DID NOT hear The Scream!?!


Too bad, heck,
ol' Curatolo could have even given the correct time for this scream!!!
Wasn't Antonio supposedly wearin' a watch at the time?
But he forgot to wear it when called to testify in court when Judge Massei asked him to show it,
if I recall correctly...

Weird stuff...

Not weird. The cottage location is down the road and around a bend far enough away from the court. Tall buildings line the road down to the cottage gate. A busy intersection with stop lights next to the bench could have masked the sound. At least 5 car lanes funnel into that intersection. Nothing stands in front of the homes overlooking the valley and the cottage.There is a lower parking lot but the sounds from the cottage carry up to the witnesses homes. Screams that woke them were from Meredith. Windows would not block yelling or screaming echoing from the valley.There was no other place for the sounds to be coming from. After Nara heard the scream she listened and head the running on the gravel on the cottage drive and the noise on metal steps close to her home.

 

[RoseMontague]

Well, Mr. (Memory) Quintavalle did remember that neither Raffaele nor Amanda had been in the days before or days after Meredith's murder to purchase bleach - the question which he was asked.

Yes, this is what Massei reasoned as well. He was not asked if he just saw them, only if they had purchased bleach. Hmmm.

does this explanation pass the smell test??????

 

[christianahannah]

Oh horse poop.

Massei defers to Q instead of the cop and even that's weak because Q claims he was asked about Raf but Q already knew Amanda by sight.

Yes, what ever happened to the greatest cub reporter since Jimmy Olsen?

I don't think that it is the person Massei defers to but rather to the testimony comparison. Volturno's testimony (as does his report, I believe) complements Quintavalle's testimony. Your interpretation of Massei's deferment does not seem complete.

The greatest cub reporter since Jimmy Olsen is still around.

 

[Bill Williams]

Not weird. The cottage location is down the road and around a bend far enough away from the court. Tall buildings line the road down to the cottage gate. A busy intersection with stop lights next to the bench could have masked the sound. At least 5 car lanes funnel into that intersection. Nothing stands in front of the homes overlooking the valley and the cottage.There is a lower parking lot but the sounds from the cottage carry up to the witnesses homes. Screams that woke them were from Meredith. Windows would not block yelling or screaming echoing from the valley.There was no other place for the sounds to be coming from. After Nara heard the scream she listened and head the running on the gravel on the cottage drive and the noise on metal steps close to her home.

This is particularly where the Italian courts, except for Hellmann's, seems not to be interested in evidence, but is moving towards a directed guilty verdict. I hope someone else posts the video, but the reconstruction done with Nara shows that she probably did not hear what she heard, and she was wrong about the timings.

The thing which marks the prosecution is the number of times evidence is advanced like Nara's and it's accepted - as long as you're not allowed to tell the whole story! Guilters have always presented the prosecution's case, then told everyone to be quiet...

For instance, Machiavelli (and others) make the claim that the balcony is the natural point of entrance for a burglar - despite it being in open view to the road and lit by a street light. He then spends copious keypresses to try to make it seem that it is not.

Briars spends copious keypresses describing a general setting to come up with, "there is no other place for the screams to have come from". Yet this presupposes that she even heard them, when evidence suggests the contrary.

Quintavalle is shown pictures of Knox and SOllecito in the days after the crime, and he says they were not in the store. A year later after a visit from a journalist looking for a scoop, suddenly Quintavalle remembers Knox in the store.

For the last (almost) six years, it is this kind of reasoning that has plagued this case.

 

[christianahannah]

Yes, this is what Massei reasoned as well. He was not asked if he just saw them, only if they had purchased bleach. Hmmm.

does this explanation pass the smell test??????

Well, Volturno was interested in the bleach since two bottles had been recovered from Raffaele's flat and Volturno himself had smelled the bleach in the flat so his focus may have been on the purchasing of bleach by the two defendants rather than documenting the times the two had come into the store. After all, Quintavalle was not the only store owner questioned in the vicinity of Raffaele's flat or the cottage.