Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Sherlock Holmes said:
They can't blame Rudi, by the time the police know about him, they are well entrenched in their stories. I also fully believe Amanda was extremely scared of Rudi, and at the time, she had no idea he had left town, she stayed as close to Raff as was humanly possible and she had seen what Rudi is capable of doing.
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Why not lead them to Rudi in the first place? Why leave his evidence if you don't want him caught?

They certainly didn't need to wait for the police to catch him.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
Sorry, but next time maybe take the maybe out. :) Too many crooked, incompetent and lying people in Italy for me. I'm going to Italy one day to find out for myself, I'll most surely go to Perugia, I'll take lots of pictures like SomeAlibi did.
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I look forward to it. The defense showed his memory was faulty with his claim of seeing them in the store previously, together. The police inspector showed him pictures just a few days after the murder and he didn't remember. He claims he was not interviewed and the defense plays his TV interview in court and Massei ignores it. A year later he remembers each article of clothing she wore. Yeah right.
 
Briars said:
A small store shopkeeper with regular customers would notice a young girl so early in the morning. The importance of course would be innocently not known at the time but that doesn't mean he wouldn't remember seeing her.
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Yes you have absolutely nailed it. Nothing could be more on point, you've done it this time. The winner!!!!

He couldn't possibly not remember this when questioned by the detective within the week of the murder. This would only be heightened when the detective mentioned Raf with whom Q remembered seeing Amanda first.

He's clearly lying for his fifteen minutes.
 
Grinder said:
Yes you have absolutely nailed it. Nothing could be more on point, you've done it this time. The winner!!!!

He couldn't possibly not remember this when questioned by the detective within the week of the murder. This would only be heightened when the detective mentioned Raf with whom Q remembered seeing Amanda first.

He's clearly lying for his fifteen minutes.
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Yep, yep.
 
not a random sampling

Sherlock Holmes said:
I would think the defence would have been right on top of this because they were going to claim that Amanda's DNA was all over the bathroom because she lived there and shared it with Meredith, it would have been nice if they were able to show that, it would not be likely to claim that the mixed samples landed on the only Amanda DNA in the room, you know what I mean.
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It would be a fallacy to assume that what the police did was to take a random sampling of the bathroom for DNA. Naturally, they were interested in individualizing the blood. In addition, they might have sampled items that were touched by the guilty party to some extent (whether they did so consistently or not is another matter). Therefore, I would be surprised to see Amanda's lone profile in many samples.
 
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Briars said:
Sure Mignini didn't need to offer a bribe or threat. They are all lying just to be in the limelight. The big conspiracy and need for attention that's all!
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He added that one evening, a little after eight o’clock, Raffaele came in - he knew him by sight because he often went to the store - and he let him in. And ‚with him there was Ms. Knox‛ (pages 76 and 77 hearing of March 21, 2009).Witness Quintavalle, at the hearing on March 21, 2009, was asked many questions to uncover elements of information that would be useful in verifying his reliability. This was mainly because though his meeting with Amanda occurred early in the 84 morning (at 7:45 am) on November 2, 2007, he only made a statement about it in November 2008 and did not mention it earlier, even when Inspector Volturno questioned him a few days after Meredith’s murder. This Court deems that the testimony of Quintavalle is reliable. It was discovered that Inspector Volturno did not ask Quintavalle if, on the morning of November 2, he saw Amanda Knox in his shop.
My recollection is that it was Q that said he wasn't asked about Amanda, but regardless it doesn't meet the smell test even in Italy to believe that if asked about a boy that you wouldn't mention this very unusual crack of dawn siting of a girl he had just met with the boy in question.

Show just a little skepticism. Small shop owner that knew his customers, now who said that?

ETA - they were helping convict the she-devil that all knew was guilty but the PLE needed people to help as per the cub reporter. How can the PGP not be troubled by all the witnesses being found by the media mostly by one young reporter?
 
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This is from IIP so if someone has a more neutral cite..

Inspector Volturno's testimony from March 21, 2009 hearing.
Question - Who did you speak to?
Inspector Volturno - Quintavalle and Chiriboga since she is his assistant and another girl whose name I don't recall now.

Question - You said previously that you had photographs of Amanda and Raffaele.
Inspector Volturno - That's right.

Question - And you showed them to the people who were inside the shop?
Inspector Volturno - Yes.

Question - Therefore both the owner and his assistants.
Inspector Volturno - Yes.

Question - You said that you asked the manager of the business if he had seen the two defendants.
Inspector Volturno - Yes, exactly.

Question - What was his exact response?
Inspector Volturno - He said that Sollecito was a regular client whilst Amanda Knox was seen on a couple of occasions in Sollecito's company.

Inspector Volturno explicitly asked Quintavalle whether he recognized the photographs of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and whether he had seen them buy bleach in a period close to the murder. Quintavalle only recognized Amanda Knox as the girl whom he had seen enter the shop on a couple of occasions, but always in the company of Raffaele Sollecito. There was absolutely no mention by Quintavalle to the investigators of the presence of Amanda Knox in his shop on the morning after the murder.
 
Briars said:
Sure Mignini didn't need to offer a bribe or threat. They are all lying just to be in the limelight. The big conspiracy and need for attention that's all!
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It seems the NY Times agrees with you, Briars!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/31/world/europe/lack-of-safeguards-enables-italy-corruption-report-says.html?_r=1&

NY Times said:
Italy falls short on many counts, said Lorenzo Segato, director of the Research Centre on Security and Crime, based in Torri di Quartesolo, which carried out the study on behalf of Transparency International. Those include questionable institutional integrity, weak control mechanisms, biased news media and a social code that condones certain illegalities.....

Morality is imposed through repression rather than through creating the conditions for a more transparent society, he said. “Italians respect what they are forced to by law,” he said......

Mechanisms put in place to fight corruption are easily circumvented, the report said, while Italy’s legal framework is often complex, contradictory and at times “controversially implemented.”
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Grinder said:
This is from IIP so if someone has a more neutral cite..

Inspector Volturno's testimony from March 21, 2009 hearing.
Question - Who did you speak to?
Inspector Volturno - Quintavalle and Chiriboga since she is his assistant and another girl whose name I don't recall now.

Question - You said previously that you had photographs of Amanda and Raffaele.
Inspector Volturno - That's right.

Question - And you showed them to the people who were inside the shop?
Inspector Volturno - Yes.

Question - Therefore both the owner and his assistants.
Inspector Volturno - Yes.

Question - You said that you asked the manager of the business if he had seen the two defendants.
Inspector Volturno - Yes, exactly.

Question - What was his exact response?
Inspector Volturno - He said that Sollecito was a regular client whilst Amanda Knox was seen on a couple of occasions in Sollecito's company.

Inspector Volturno explicitly asked Quintavalle whether he recognized the photographs of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and whether he had seen them buy bleach in a period close to the murder. Quintavalle only recognized Amanda Knox as the girl whom he had seen enter the shop on a couple of occasions, but always in the company of Raffaele Sollecito. There was absolutely no mention by Quintavalle to the investigators of the presence of Amanda Knox in his shop on the morning after the murder.
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Well, it's a good thing that this case didn't depend on Quintavalle's testimony, nor the testimony of someone with drug-dependencies. Or, for that matter, on finding copious amounts of DNA in the murder room....

.... wait a minute.... I think it did!

No wonder the ISC wants to revisit sex-games-gone-wrong, as well as screams in the night. Just think, with "all the other evidence" that guilters have thrown around for 6 years, they'll have to go through all it it before the ISC signs off on it.

ISC 2020 Motivations report will send it back to the appeals level for the third time: "The appeals level needs to deal with sex on a train, as well as the Iraq-like civil disturbance that Knox created in Seattle before leaving for Italy."
 
consider the witnesses in the Todd Willingham case

I think it is possible that Quintavalle consciously or subconsciously made a decision to help in the conviction (witnesses in the Todd Willingham case changed their testimony over time). Maybe it was not a desire for 15 minutes of fame, but ultimately his motive is unimportant. What matters is that his testimony cannot be taken seriously because it effectively changed over time, and it is contradicted by Chiraboga.
 
Briars said:
There is some confusion as to whether there were No buses that night ,or just fewer.
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There is no confusion. The are a limited number of the out of town discos that ran busses to bring in the patrons. None of them were open that night. Some of the owners and drivers were brought in and testified that the discos were closed and the busses were not running. If there was one that was open, the prosecution would have found it and you would be able to read about it in Massei. There were a few bars still open in town. But they don't run busses.

This is all well known and documented. Why do you choose to lie about it?
 
NancyS said:
Read back through the last few pages as we went into quite a lot of depth regarding why this doesn't make sense. If involved they wouldn't have known there was no evidence of themselves at the murder scene - and all advice from family/lawyers would have been to blame Rudy and claim that you were too scared to do this earlier. It's the most likely thing they would have done if guilty - it makes no sense to keep on protecting him against their own best interests.

Or are you saying that they are innocent witnesses who are too terrified by Rudy to say anything? Curiouser and curiouser!
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I have to disagree, if guilty of the murder, maybe, but if they didn't murder then why change their story again, they are charged with murder, if they didn't murder how could they prove they were guilty. At least I think that's how they would have looked at it.
 
Grinder said:
Why not lead them to Rudi in the first place? Why leave his evidence if you don't want him caught?

They certainly didn't need to wait for the police to catch him.
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Because, they are not completely innocent, and they are claiming to be completely innocent.
 
RoseMontague said:
I look forward to it. The defense showed his memory was faulty with his claim of seeing them in the store previously, together. The police inspector showed him pictures just a few days after the murder and he didn't remember. He claims he was not interviewed and the defense plays his TV interview in court and Massei ignores it. A year later he remembers each article of clothing she wore. Yeah right.
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I actually never really considered him credible, not until today when I read about what he said she was wearing, because I don't know how he would know that and he was bang on. Sure, maybe he was told somehow by someone, but I doubt that could be proved, if he wasn't told then he probably did see her that morning.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
Because, they are not completely innocent, and they are claiming to be completely innocent.
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So, they knowingly screwed up a golden chance to not only claim innocence, but frame Rudy, because..........they weren't innocent they just wanted to claim to be.

Right, got it.

Clear as day.

No problems.
 
Grinder said:
He added that one evening, a little after eight o’clock, Raffaele came in - he knew him by sight because he often went to the store - and he let him in. And ‚with him there was Ms. Knox‛ (pages 76 and 77 hearing of March 21, 2009).
Witness Quintavalle, at the hearing on March 21, 2009, was asked many questions to uncover elements of information that would be useful in verifying his reliability. This was mainly because though his meeting with Amanda occurred early in the
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morning (at 7:45 am) on November 2, 2007, he only made a statement about it in November 2008 and did not mention it earlier, even when Inspector Volturno questioned him a few days after Meredith’s murder.This Court deems that the testimony of Quintavalle is reliable. It was discovered that Inspector Volturno did not ask Quintavalle if, on the morning of November 2, he saw Amanda Knox in his shop.

My recollection is that it was Q that said he wasn't asked about Amanda, but regardless it doesn't meet the smell test even in Italy to believe that if asked about a boy that you wouldn't mention this very unusual crack of dawn siting of a girl he had just met with the boy in question.

Show just a little skepticism. Small shop owner that knew his customers, now who said that?


ETA - they were helping convict the she-devil that all knew was guilty but the PLE needed people to help as per the cub reporter. How can the PGP not be troubled by all the witnesses being found by the media mostly by one young reporter?
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A few days after the murder! Why would he think to mention Amanda, he couldn't possibly know she had any connection to the murder of Meredith until after the 6th. I have also heard that that reporter lived upstairs of Quinn and they knew and talked to each other regularly.
 
Another line of defense against an extradition would be the lack of a timely trial. Had the trial been held within 9 months of the murder there would have been no Curatolo, no Nara, no Quintavalle, no Monacchia et al.

Sherlock you given answers and then just ignore them. Quintavalle came forward at the urging of a reporter from a local paper that had access to the PLE. Look at the accounts from Perugia from the first week. Information that shouldn't have been public for months if ever was on the front page immediately.

As Rose pointed out he still got the coat wrong and the scarf. Guessing jeans would have worked on Meredith as well. Did she wear a scarf the day or two before when he saw her with Raf.

You must explain why he knew nothing the day the detective talked with him.
 
Sherlock Holmes said:
I actually never really considered him credible, not until today when I read about what he said she was wearing, because I don't know how he would know that and he was bang on. Sure, maybe he was told somehow by someone, but I doubt that could be proved, if he wasn't told then he probably did see her that morning.
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From what I recall, he claimed to see her wearing clothing that she'd actually borrowed from Raffaelle when they were waiting outside the cottage after the murder had been discovered.

That is, his description of her exactly matched that which had been broadly disseminated for a significantly extended and intense period of time after the murder (and especially after the arrests) and is unlikely to represent something she was actually wearing early that morning.

To be fair, I could be thinking of Curotalo.
 
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