I have stated why this proposal is perfectly plausible. At all events it is vastly more probable than the collection of speculations that you have advanced likewise lacking not merely textual evidence, but any probability at all. This for example, which is entirely at odds with the chronology of Acts. So give me a written source wherein the later gospel writers meditate on interpretations of this sort. Oh, but it's "obvious" that they "may have". So you don't need a written source. I forgot.
Craig - your posts here have become utterly ridiculous. And also beginning to sound like a rampant personalised vendetta.
When I asked you for any references to support your "proposition" that there must have been eye witnesses to the execution who had given the stories to later gospel writers (who? when? at what date was this?). You had no answer at all.
You have no such reference or sources at all.
Now, you are complaining that I have not given you sources for what I have explained to you over the last two pages. Even though I have just told you that two very obvious, well known, and universally known sources are Paul's letter to Timothy which apparently names Pilate, and Paul's letter describing his vision of the risen Jesus.
Are you really telling me that you did not know Paul’s letters exist?
So give me a written source wherein the later gospel writers meditate on interpretations of this sort. Oh, but it's "obvious" that they "may have". So you don't need a written source. I forgot.
I do not need a "written source" for where the gospels writers may have obtained any of their information, and neither do you! Because everyone agrees that the gospel authors were not eye witnesses to anything involving Jesus.
That means the gospel writers who you are relying upon must have got their stories from earlier sources.
OK, so which earlier sources do we know of?
The only earlier known source saying that Jesus was crucified is Paul’s letter 1-Corinthians 15:3–8, though he also mentions the vision in Galatians 1:11-16. The dates for these, as originals, are usually given as 53-55AD.
Afaik, the earliest possible date for any readable extant copy of Paul’s letters is circa 200AD.
1-Timothy 6:12-14 also mentions Pilate, by name, in a well known passage called “The good confession before Pontius Pilate“. See the quote below.
The letters to Timothy are widely agreed to be “fakes” and probably first written in the 2nd century. Though again, as with all extant copies of the gospels, any readable complete copies are presumably much later than that (certainly later than 200AD).
Now, as far as the gospels which you are relying upon, are concerned - Luke (which you are referring to) is generally dated as the 3rd of the 4 canonical gospels, and generally given an original date of about 80 or 85 AD to 100AD. Though again, no copy from anywhere near that early date is known. And in fact, the first relatively complete copies of any of the 4 canonical gospels date from the 4th century onwards, and mostly from the 6th century onwards.
OK, so what you have above are two direct references to the crucifixion, ie two or more of Paul’s letters, which are thought almost certainly to pre-date any extant relatively complete and readable copies of the gospels.
So those letters of Paul are a very obvious and undeniable known sources from which the later gospel authors, such as whoever wrote “Luke” could obtain their beliefs about the likely date of the crucifixion.
Whereas in stark contrast, you have no reference at all for your presumption that the gospel writers obtained their information from eye witnesses who actually saw Jesus being condemned to death by Pontius Pilate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle
Damascus Road experience
Conversion on the Way to Damascus (1601), by Caravaggio
Paul's conversion can be dated to 31–36[31][32][33] by his reference to it in one of his letters.[14] There are three accounts of his conversion (Greek: μετάνοια metanoia) in the Acts of the Apostles: Acts 9:1-31, 22:1-22, and 26:9-24.
It took place on the road to Damascus where he reported to have experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus. The account in Acts 9 says that both Saul/Paul and the men that were with him heard the voice asking, "Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?" (The account in Acts 22:9 says his companions saw the light, but did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to Saul.) Saul asked, "Who are you, lord?", to which the voice replied, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting! Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do". From that experience he was blinded for three days and had to be led into Damascus by the hand. His sight was restored by Ananias of Damascus. This extraordinary life-changing experience and revelation convinced Paul that God indeed had chosen Jesus to be the promised messiah. Luke, the author of Acts of the Apostles, likely learned of his conversion from Paul, from the church in Jerusalem, or from the church in Antioch.[34]
Paul's letters do not refer directly to this experience on the Damascus road. In Galatians 1:16 he writes that God "was pleased to reveal his son to me". In 1 Corinthians 15:8, in listing the order in which Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection, Paul says "last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also".(NASB) These two passages have been interpreted to refer to his road to Damascus conversion experience which he elsewhere had described as the resurrected Jesus appearing to him, but in none of his own epistles does he mention that profound epiphany.
And from 1-Timothy
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/bellett/GdConfes.html
Paul exhorts his son Timothy "to fight the good fight of faith, and to lay hold on eternal life," in remembrance of this faith that was in the blessed Saviour Himself. "Fight," says he, "the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. I give thee charge in the sight of God, Who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, Who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession, that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Tim. 6:12-14).
And finally look at this quote of yours -
That the surviving companions of Jesus recalled and passed on such a striking and simple datum as that their teacher had been put to death by Pilate, is a perfectly credible proposition. They did not ooncoct it from scriptural texts. It is therefore quite probably true. Where did they get the name Pilate from? From transmitted memory of the event. I have no problem with that.
Now what you have been saying throughout this thread is that you believe Jesus was real, correct? And what you are now saying above, is that you believe that the gospel authors had eye-witnesses to the actual execution of Jesus by Pilate. ….
…. well what that amounts to, is you trying to believe in Jesus by telling yourself that since he existed, there must have been eye-witnesses to his execution, and that they must be the people who told the much later gospel authors about it.
Well firstly that is a self-serving and completely circular reasoning which looks very much like a case of blind religious belief.
But secondly - which extant copies of any gospels are you using to obtain any statements about Pontius Pilate executing Jesus?
The reason I ask that, is because, although bible scholars, theists and theologians are very fond of telling us that the first gospels were originally written in the first century AD. The fact of that matters appears to be that “only fragments and quotations exist before the 4th century”. Or to spell that out - the earliest copies of any of the canonical gospels that are relatively complete and therefore likely to be fully readable in the detail of sentences such as those about Pilate, date not from the 1st century, but from the 4th century onwards, and in fact mostly from the 6th century onwards.
So … if you are getting your Pilate information from gospel copies written in the 4th century and later, as seems most likely (but you can tell us, and I'm going to ask you, see below), then your gospel references are fully a hundred years (or much more) later than the earliest extant relatively complete copies of Paul’s letters (which apparently date to circa. 200AD).
IOW - your gospel authors were so late (4th century and later) that (a)they could not possibly have ever met any eye-witness to anything about Jesus or Pilate, (b)would have had at least 100 years or more to know what Paul had said about his visions of the risen Jesus and the likely date of that, as well as the claim of the confession under Pilate!
Right. So can we now be completely clear please - what the above shows is that there are obvious and well known references and sources in Paul’s letters, which by any measure you wish to take, are almost certainly long before your gospels, and which must surely have been known to all Christians inc. the gospel copyists by the time of the 4th century extant copies, if not also very likely well known to even the very earliest gospel author of whatever date.
And against all that (ie the above re. Pauls early letters etc.), you can only offer the idea that you would like to believe that the gospel authors (which ones? at what date?….which copies are you using??), may have met eye-witnesses who actually told these unknown unnamed gospel authors that they saw Pilate executing Jesus.
I'm sure there may be some, but I'm thinking hard...
